carbines: great for an urban dweller on a budget

[1000meterstare]

For me, the carbine makes zero sense.  I live in North Dakota.  Ranges are vast, an urban populations are few.  In fact this State is a collection of small towns and rural areas.  Where I live, the .308 bolt-action lacks reach.  But for those who live in Urban areas when STHF and cannot get out (whether by $$ limitations or sheer reality) the carbine shines.

In urban areas where engagements rarely go past 100 yards the carbine in a +p pistol round may be just the ticket.  You extend the range of your pistol ammo in a handgun from 25 yards (50 for me because I practice and am a Billy Bad-Ass) too 100 yards or more in a carbine.  There are several inexpensive options, and for the folks who are revolver die-hards a lever-action in .357 is hard to beat.  The added bonus is that you only have to carry one caliber of ammo.  I meant this to be a no bells or whistles interactive thread so let's hear what everyone thinks.

[Kentactic]

Yep nothing wrong with carbines. I rock a damn pump shotgun for god sakes. I felt like a cotton tail rabbit out in the open in NV in some situations. other times I felt great like on the road or laying in a little crevice aiming at an entry point 10 yards away.

[Burt Gummer]

If i'm running arround in an area that would require me to pie constantly I wouldn't want to do it with a full length rifle It's fucking impossible in side but there you could use a side arm, Outside it's still an issue if you want to pie a corner without the muzzle of your rifle protruding past it wit a long gun you will be a lot slower with a long gun then with a carbine, just because you'd have further to walk. Consequentially increasing your profile from other angles, which is giving your team mates (grated you have them) more work.
Also in an urban area your area's of concern will often be above you, so you'll constantly be waving that long ass barrel around, and you WILL get fucking tired.
Hats of to those cat's in WWI & II.

That being said I want a Sub2000 in 9mm

[rah45]

While we're talking about carbines and such, wouldn't it be a great time to look into an AR "pistol" with Sig's new "armbrace stock"? I have an M1A with standard 22" barrel, and I have thought more than once about how easy it would be to see me coming around a corner. If I was going to get an AR or urban/semi-urban scenarios, or just transition completely to an AR platform, I was thinking...why not go the AR pistol route with the above setup? That should reach 100-150 yards accurately with practice, I would think. Once SHTF, if it's REALLY bad, you can also always transfer over some regular AR furniture.

As a side note, is there an ATF regulation against putting suppressors on an AR "pistol?" If not, that plus the Sig brace would seem like an optimal combination.

[thatGuy]

Man o man I know the feeling of being out ranged! In Northeastern New Mexico the Great Plains spill into the state with miles upon untold miles of rolling hills, miniature undulations is a better description. There is no shade, shelter or cover for miles and all I've got is this lonely little carbine.

In a perfect world we would have collections that rivaled Burt Gummer's, not you Pep but the dude from tremors.

but lets face it, this world isn't perfect.

We've got to strike a balance, I'd imagine in the small town collection culture of the rural Dakotas food,water and fuel would ultimately serve you better than a super spendy long gun. Especially if it was sustainable, but it would be nice to have it all right??

So what are you thinking about Mr.1kmstare? You barking up the old large ring Mauser tree? I hear CZ makes a nice one and iirc you are a fan of CZs.

[Burt Gummer]

Wrong Rec Room!

[1000meterstare]

I didn't mean to bark up a tree, I was just covering an option for urban folks.  To Gummer - most carbines have short barrels, very little is sticking out even in a "pie" situation.  (I don't even believe that "so-called" tactic is even effective or the way to go.  If you find yourself in an OFFENSIVE situation in a structure in SHTF then you are doing something seriously wrong).  In addition, most carbines weigh less an AK or AR of similar barrel length by the tune to a pound give or take.  Frankly, I don't find my AK excessively heavy or cumbersome.  To Thatguy:  yes, the .308 bolt is the best option for me here in 90% of situations but it still doesn't have enough reach in this AO for some applications.  Bottom line:  Does the pistol-caliber carbine greatly enhance the velocity, "stopping power", and range of a pistol round?  Absolutely.  

[Kentactic]

One downside to a pistol caliber is they aren't very good at killing bad guys. A longer barrel may enhance it to some degree but its still a far cry from a rifle caliber. 44 mag or 357 being a better in between example.

[Burt Gummer]

To Gummer - most carbines have short barrels, very little is sticking out even in a "pie" situation.

I was referring to pie'ing with a long barrel high caliber rifle. And I know that carbines have short barrels... (not really new to this game.)
The reason there's emphasis on the high, is because with say a full size AR/M16 you could fire the rifle semi effectively without shouldering the pad and floating it above your shoulder. With any 30cal range round you can obviously forget about that.

One downside to a pistol caliber is they aren't very good at killing bad guys. A longer barrel may enhance it to some degree but its still a far cry from a rifle caliber. 44 mag or 357 being a better in between example.

Ken I'd use a .17hmr to kill a "bad guy". All that counts is shot placement. If i'm not in a hurry and he likely does not have access to professional medical treatment in a timely fashion an easy shot in the gut/intestines or the meaty part of the thigh will likely do him in. In a hurry? go for the circulatory & respiratory systems.
People kroak easily don't believe the movies.

[APX808]

One downside to a pistol caliber is they aren't very good at killing bad guys. A longer barrel may enhance it to some degree but its still a far cry from a rifle caliber. 44 mag or 357 being a better in between example.

Ken I'd use a .17hmr to kill a "bad guy". All that counts is shot placement. If i'm not in a hurry and he likely does not have access to professional medical treatment in a timely fashion an easy shot in the gut/intestines or the meaty part of the thigh will likely do him in. In a hurry? go for the circulatory & respiratory systems.
People kroak easily don't believe the movies.

Although is true that you can kill with any caliber, when I want to kill someone I want him dead right fucking now, not 2 days after.
There are plenty of cases where bad guys received multiple shots from small arms and they were able to continue shooting or running 2 blocks before dying etc.
When discussing terminal ballistics we should discuss stopping power instead of lethality.

And shot placement is a nice to have, but in combat situation you'll shot the part of your enemy that you can see or is out of cover, so you can't count on it.

[JohnyMac]

I have only once dropped a deer where they stood.

All of my shots on deer have been boiler plate shots. All but one ran 20-30 yards before dropping with the exception of this years deer.

This years shot was a boiler plate shot however the bullet must have been re-directed after hitting a rib. The bullet exited the spinal column. Basically I broke the deer's back.

All of my deer have been harvested with a 300 Savage round, using a Winchester Silver-Tip bullet at 50 yards or less.

Now never being in combat I can only assume that for a quick, drop like a bag of potatoes death - Would be a head or spinal column hit.

[DMCakhunter]

Since the military is stuck using inferior bullets, we civies can utilize the deadliest projectiles  in production and get the most out of our guns, turning a mediocre cartridge into a highly lethal tool.

[Kentactic]

To Gummer - most carbines have short barrels, very little is sticking out even in a "pie" situation.

I was referring to pie'ing with a long barrel high caliber rifle. And I know that carbines have short barrels... (not really new to this game.)
The reason there's emphasis on the high, is because with say a full size AR/M16 you could fire the rifle semi effectively without shouldering the pad and floating it above your shoulder. With any 30cal range round you can obviously forget about that.

One downside to a pistol caliber is they aren't very good at killing bad guys. A longer barrel may enhance it to some degree but its still a far cry from a rifle caliber. 44 mag or 357 being a better in between example.

Ken I'd use a .17hmr to kill a "bad guy". All that counts is shot placement. If i'm not in a hurry and he likely does not have access to professional medical treatment in a timely fashion an easy shot in the gut/intestines or the meaty part of the thigh will likely do him in. In a hurry? go for the circulatory & respiratory systems.
People kroak easily don't believe the movies.

But he can still shoot back for hours to come. The way to win a gunfight is for you to survive, not to kill the other guy. If you're in a gunfight and your not shot yet, then you're still winning, regardless of the status of the bad guy(s). With that said, I think any hits that you get need to be as good as possible at keeping him from being able to shoot at you.

Pistol calibers do not have nearly the ability of a rifle caliber to keep him from being able to shoot you.

[CJS06]

I think what the OPs topic should have said was "pistol caliber carbines".  I personally believe in the carbine as a primary weapon with a handgun as a secondary.  I do however prefer rifle caliber carbines over pistol caliber and own them in 5.56, .308, .300BLK, and 7.62x 39.  I wont go what I see as a "best" one of these.  I do shoot 5.56 more than the others. At close ranges it is as or more effective than any pistol caliber round, I am 100% comfortable getting good hits with it (using an EOTech) out to 300m, and if I have any magnification 500m+ is very reasonable.  The only disadvantage would be the requirement of 2 different types of ammo. This is for general use when ranges are indeterminate and could range from up close to medium distances. If I knew my AO and could pick the weapon that fit it I would (bolt long gun, precision semi auto, SBR, etc).

[gapatriot]

I think what the OPs topic should have said was "pistol caliber carbines".  I personally believe in the carbine as a primary weapon with a handgun as a secondary.  I do however prefer rifle caliber carbines over pistol caliber and own them in 5.56, .308, .300BLK, and 7.62x 39.  I wont go what I see as a "best" one of these.  I do shoot 5.56 more than the others. At close ranges it is as or more effective than any pistol caliber round, I am 100% comfortable getting good hits with it (using an EOTech) out to 300m, and if I have any magnification 500m+ is very reasonable.  The only disadvantage would be the requirement of 2 different types of ammo. This is for general use when ranges are indeterminate and could range from up close to medium distances. If I knew my AO and could pick the weapon that fit it I would (bolt long gun, precision semi auto, SBR, etc).

Good to see we have a true weapons expert on the board now. Damn and I always thought a pistol cal. Weapon was a sub gun not a carbine but apparently I have been corrected. By the way what is headspace? Some one asked me that awhile back and I didn't know what they were talking about.

[CJS06]

Good to see we have a true weapons expert on the board now. Damn and I always thought a pistol cal. Weapon was a sub gun not a carbine but apparently I have been corrected. By the way what is headspace? Some one asked me that awhile back and I didn't know what they were talking about.

Headspace basically the length of you chamber from the surface that the cartridge rests against to the surface of the bolt.  If the headspace is too short the bolt will not close properly and if the headspace is too long it is possible for the case to rupture. It is good to check this when building a rifle, but also comes into play with older milsurp rifles....especially those that were used with corrosive ammo.