Ammunition opportunity

[Erick]

(The below are 2 posts I made on another forum.. I selected only 2 forums to post it on this one and another ... the "mass forums" did not get these posts)

All,

I found an ammunition opportunity in this "Hard Primer" ammo that is sold for 16 cents a round (!!).

What happened is Golden Tiger an older but well liked brand entered the US market again this year with ammo due to a lessening of Russia state military orders (and favorable exchange rates ruble to USD)

Golden Tiger is 56 gr boat tail ammo (the only Russian boat tail) has a record of very good accuracy and muzzle velocities.
It is also lacquered and has sealant hand applied to the bullet seating into the case and sealant the primer .

As a result this is one of the most storage resistant rounds on the market anywhere.

So why is it so cheap then?
Well originally they were selling it for 22 cents a round...

When Golden Tiger went back into the market they sourced their primers from a place that makes Russian mil primers.
And they are very hard too hard for many ARs.

While some ARs shoot this ammo fine w/o Mods...... in order to run it reliably there are upgraded firing pins needed ( and some also get Wolff springs)

I have ordered both and have a substantial amount of this excellent ammo on order for 16 cents a round

www.sgammo.com/product/223-556mm-ammo/1000-rounds-loose-223-rem-fmj-steel-case-russian-ammo-hard-primer-sold-read-d

Here is a link to the upgraded firing pin generally considered necessary to fire this ammo reliably.

ar15xtreme.com/product/ar-platform-7-62-x-39-firing-pin/ (yes it says 7,62 but it will work in 5.56)

[Erick]

Update:
Today I performed the functions test with the somewhat controversial Golden Tiger 56 gr (not a typo!) FMJBT, Laquered Steel...

The below was my test set up for function:

1x LWRC M6A2 with Wolff XP Spring and Enhanced Firing Pin
1x Sig 516 with stock FP and trigger assembly
1x LWRC M6 with Geisselle SSA and stock FP
2x brand new Troy mags (for feeding consistency)
1000x Golden Tiger Laquered Steel 56 FMJBT:

Result:

-AR with Geissele SSA and Stock FP:
0 out of 5 rds functioned.. I stopped test at 5

- Sig516 with Milspec stock trigger and sotck FP:
3 out of 10 rds functioned

- AR With Wolff XP spring and upgraded FP:
60 out of 60 rounds functioned.. 

- AR with Geissele SSA but stock FP replaced by enhanced FP:
30 out of 30 ignition 

So even the Geissele SSA trigger assembly with a hammer spring lighter than stock was able to reliably ingnite the Hard Primers on this ammo as long as it has the upgraded FP.

From this it's clear the determining factor is the firing pin and I will not be installing any more XP Hammer springs in my fleet.

Also while accuracy was not evaluated in a methodical way Golden Tiger's repuation for it seems justified:
When functions testing the ammo from the bench I my last 20 rds with my primary at a Index card size and shape target at 100m and hit it nearly every time.
An Index card is approx 3 inch wide when "stood up" so this point to a low MOA error especially as my rifle was not zeroed for this ammo and I was not shooting for zero (no bag) so I was introduced some inaccurcies of my own I am sure.

At 100 yards an index card is very very small in your sights..

Given that with the right FP the Ammo functions 100% for me , the excellent accuracy for an economy round , the internet user published chronos consistently above 3000 fps w/ the refence 20 inch barrel and the very smooth lacquer combined with the sealant around the neck and primer I am going all-in with this ammo.

So I just ordered a 3rd one of these for myself:
ar15xtreme.com/product/ar-platform-7-62-x-39-firing-pin/

And I also just ordered some more of this:
www.sgammo.com/product/223-556mm-ammo/1000-rounds-loose-223-rem-fmj-steel-case-russian-ammo-hard-primer-sold-read-d


I still have stocks of Federal XM855 and PPU M193 (which is also exclleent but costs twice as much) and will sell them pockeitng half the money and using he other half for this ammo

[JohnyMac]

Thanks for the heads up Erick!

[Erick]

YW,


Also heads up : Ammo is back in stock. almost 60 out of 90 cases sold in last 48 hrs...

[Erick]

The results were not quite as perfect as last weekends:

-the good:

Fired the extended FP into 60 rds of normal primer ammo, 20 rds of brass case ammo (I think is PMC but will have to ask my buddy who supplied it.)  20 rds of Wolf MC, 20 rds of BrownBear.  Both of the 2 steel ammos are made at Barnaul and are know for non problematic ( and there soft) primers in AR ammo.

None of those 60 rds showed any signs or primer piercing at all (pics going t be emailed to me soon)

So it is clear there seems no issue in using this particular Firing Pin in ammo w/ softer primers so no need to switch FPs between Ammo which I think is important to many of us.

- More Golden Tiger testing today:

During the course of todays testing I installed Wolff springs in 2 rifles. I had been hoping for 100% function w/ only the enhanced FP (like I had last weekend albeit on a smaller sample size) but it was not to be.

a) Fired about 60 rounds with a Seekins Precision AR equipped with w/ JP Enterprises Trigger with enhanced Xtreme AR FP added:

All 60 rounds functioned w/o problem (attributable to ammo that is.. got  a couple double feeds due to old USGI mags which are now thrown away). All 60 rds  functioned with consistent and good ejection patterns too

b) Fired 60 rds out of a Smith and Wesson MP15 with enhanced firing pin but no Springs; 2 failures to fire attributed  to light primer strikes.

c) Fired another 60 rds out of a SIG516 with only the enhanced firing pin installed, 1 failure to fire due to non ignition

d) Fired another 90 rds out of the Smith MP15 with both enhanced FP and Wolff Spring got 1 failures.

d) Fired 120 rounds of GT out of SIG 516 with both the enhanced FP and the Wolff Spring installed.. Expected zero ignition problem but did get 1 failure to fire.


So in summary for todays data:

Fired a total of 350 rds of Golden Tiger out of rifles with enhanced firing pin. Got a total of 5 failure to fires. 3 of which were in the minority of rounds fire when the rifles did not have the Wolff hammer Spring installed.

The failures tho very very few (2) , when the Wolff spring was in there worry me a bit ...because I expected 0, like I got last weekend.
Many ARs chambered in 5.45mm exist which are hard primers and this same XP spring by itself (different bolt though) is used there with 100% effectiveness.

BUT to make things more complex.. I am not positive one of the Smith MP15 failures wasnt BEFORE spring installation as well. We were doing so many firing orders and it did not get properly recorded so I am going from memory here

I was using GT ammo out of a different case not sure if there are different batches involved .

Based on report of some being able to fire 50% of rounds w/o any mods and some being able to fire 100% of round w/o any mods to the AR (tho those were clearly exceptions) I was expecting 100% ignition just with the FP alone.

So all data from last weekend and this one combined reads:

440 rds toal of GT fire with enhanced FP (with and w/o springs) 5 rounds failed to fire.
NO stuck cases in all fires.

One failure to fire round w/ Wolff spring may be a fluke.. .
1 failure is a fluke. 2 failure is a trend.
I have 5 more of these firing pins coming but maybe I could try a different brand?

The reliability clearly seems to be linked mostly to firing pin.

For many this data of 2 FTF w/ spring may make this ammo not suitable for SHTF use.

Even tough I HAVE seen more than once even the almost 40-cents-a-round expensive Federal 5.56 mm  have FTFs before at ranges.

Also some many argue in SHTF having 2000 rds for the price of 1000 may still be worth it especially since thise FTF are a very easy clear and still quite rare to boot). YMMV.

I would like it if a member here did his testing with a different ban of enhanced FP.
Though we cannot fault the FP w/o any more date.

I read  a report of a guy who said he used this Firing Pin below and had 100% function w/ this ammo without even a spring installation. (but I dont know how many rounds he tested)

shop.redxarms.com/ENHANCED-FIRING-PIN-FOR-762-X-39-AND-545-X-39-BCGS-EFIRINGPIN.htm

Also I do like lighter triggers.
So I may accept the reduced reliability of a rifle with only the firing pin installed to enjoy my softer triggers.

Also between last weekend and this one as an interesting note out of my total 5 malfunctions in 440 rds involving lack of primer initiation all but one were on one rifle and a total of 5 rifles was used.

Since the firoing pin and hammer spring was standardized it should make no difference but still it did jump put at me.
I am not saying I will exclude the data , I wont, but the results would look VERY different if I excluded that one rifle

Also just ordered 2 enchanced firing pins from RedX Arms to see if there is a difference and will do more testing with these and my other FPs next weekend.


its clear this ammo is easily good enough for training ammo ( incredibly the price is not much more than some of the better 22LR costs)  but I see no reason why I cant tweak my configuration so its near 100% reliable.

[CJS06]

Erick

Thanks for the amount of legwork you have put into this.  Great price being less than 50% of most of the 5.56 range ammo that is out there.  I could definitely see working this stuff into training. Hell with 5 failures out of 440 rds with just the upgraded firing pin you could chalk that up to good malfunction training. 

Chris

[Erick]

Erick

Thanks for the amount of legwork you have put into this.  Great price being less than 50% of most of the 5.56 range ammo that is out there.  I could definitely see working this stuff into training. Hell with 5 failures out of 440 rds with just the upgraded firing pin you could chalk that up to good malfunction training. 

Chris

Youre welcome

An interesting fact was that out of the total of 5 failures among 440 shot thru 5 rifles was that 4 out of 5 failures were with one rifle.

On that one rifle ( A smith+wesson MP15), I would gte a failure once a mag when I ran just the FP and once every 3 mags if I ran the XP FP plus wolf spring.

Since that rifle had the same firing pin (and later wolff spring) as the others I cannot explain this outlier.
If it wasnt for this outlier I could declare this ammo good enough even for ops..

I cannot throw out the outlier but will do more experimentation next weekend with 2 more rifles. One with just the enhanced firing pin and one with both pin and spring.

3 out of 5 rifles experienced no failures at all with this ammo even running only the XP firing pin.

So I need to test more.

But I must hurry, because if I dont have solid results soon all the decision support from this shooting will not help once all the ammo is sold out.

Even if GT .223 comes back it will not be at such a discount. and SG ammo being the only importer and I am sure they took a big loss buying the ammo back.... I am not sure SGAmmo will be willing to import them again..

One thing is for sure:
Once these repacked returns are gone, we will never see AR15 ammo at this price again!
never, ever!

[Erick]

-Sometimes I feel the heavy hammer spring may add some resistance to the lockback resulting in failures to feed in some rifles with marginal ignition. Might consider lighter buffer springs for select rifles.


-Fired 200 rds through my LWRC today using Lancer , Troy, MSAR and H&K Mags.
Zero failures of any kind..... that is now 300 + rds though that rifle with no failures of any kind with ths golden tiger ammo.

Fired another 120 though thru 2 other rifles that did only have a firing pin upgrade had 3 failures to fire total but also some feed issues that I suspect may be due to marginal ignition in the absence of spring uprgade.

So in summary it seems that the combination of Firing pin upgrade and spring upgrade produces near 100% reliability in most rifles.

I found another another thing also:

When comparing the Xtreme precision firing pin (of which I now have a bunch) with the RedXarms upgraded FP, I noticed the RedX was much more aggressive in adding length.

But even more interesting when comparing I pushed them thru different bolts and noticed different bolts produce different degree of protrusion due to varing lenght between bolts (!)

That means production variances between bolts exist enough to affect firing pin protrusion and impact their ability to protrude thru the face of the bolt.


I am aware of one rifle having had 2 failures among 120 rds and weird ejection patterns when firing with either just spring upgrade or spring + hammer...I might look for the bolt being a culprit here ...

Anyhow... it seems the ammo while not perfect in all rifles is suitable for reliable use in almost every rifle when adding hammer and firing pin upgrades...

[Erick]

Back in stock..

[Erick]

Back in stock again

[Erick]

Update;

Ammo is still in a pattern...sold out ..then back again in stock ...on and off.

Signs point to some folks buying huge stocks because its sold out so quick.

Saturday had 60 cases in stock Sunday morning zero.

On this note I trained with it on Saturday with approx 240 rds and had once again zero malfunctions in my trainer that has enhanced firing pin and Wolff Hammer spring.

[Erick]

That stuff now sells out within a few hours...

I missed a chance to buy a couple more cases because I was on the road..
I hope at least some of it is going to my peeps here and elsewhere..

[Grudgie]

Thanks for the opportunity. I bought 5 cases when you first made the post. I was counting on a Hillary victory to increase the value of my ammunition but that is looking a little less likely in light of recent events. I have not yet fired any of it.

[Erick]

Thanks for the opportunity. I bought 5 cases when you first made the post.

Great!!!! 

Did you get the enhanced firing pin and Wolff Extra Power Spring?

yesterday I was out and fired 200 (or so) rounds of it through my rifle (upgraded with the enhanced firing pin and wolff spring) and as always it functions 100% with this ammo.
This bring my ammo shot thru this rifle with this ammo to 600-800 rds w/o  a single malfunction of any kind (I have both Wolff XP spring and enhanced firing pin in it)
Another rifle upgraded i same way has 300 rds thru it with same result.

One of my buddies wife rifle (M&P15) still does experience failures once or twice in 100 rds as of 5 weeks ago
I will examine her rifle's bolt soon.. I suspect its an out of spec bolt (too long "tail" catching on the "collar" of the FP preventing it from protruding far enough for consistent ignition) and her rifle has  a history of unreliability with all kinds of ammo. May replace the bolt from one of my spares fleet.

In one of my other rifles (Seekins) I also had a rifle ignite 100% of this ammo before with just the Xtreme precision firing pin but I noticed ignition was inconsistent (frequent failure to lock back bolt, feed issues due to bolt not going all the way) . But again this particular rifle ONLY has the firing pin installed no spring and i ahve no doubt when I put the spring in this will be cured.

Another buddy who had just gotten 2000 rds of this ammo has only the firing pin installed and yesertday at the range at end of day topped off a half empty mag with 15 rds of this and to my surprise it also functioned 100% even though he did not have the spring installed.
He was running the IMO "milder" upgraded firing pin the Extreme precision. This has worked well for me and does not pierce primers of "normal" ammo but i strongly suspected it needed the Wolff XP spring to help it. I still recommend the spring to him after all  its cheap (4 dollar) insurance for consistent function and his sample size ( 15 rds ) was small.

There is also the RedX arms upgraded FP which is even a bit more extreme (the "pip" on front of FP is even more extended versus stock than the Xtreme precision one) and with this one I wonder that maybe, just maybe,  with a real milspec trigger (which have kinda heavier hammer springs than most commercial) consistent function may be possible but I have not yet invested the firing schedule to check this. And the springs are pretty cheap so....

I ordered about a dozen firing pins from both suppliers even though I suspect this ammo supply is slowly drying up.

Reason I orderd so many upgraded FPs is that other ammo stashes may have primers a bit on the hard side also and these upgraded FPs especially the Xtreme precison will serve well with all primers (at least thats what my testing indicates).

And as a prepper I never know what kind of ammo stashes or finds I may be forced to use in the future..

As an afterthought I remember in the past Tula has shown symptoms consistent with light primer strikes. for this reason I have shunned that ammo.in the past.. but now with the upgraded FP in some of my rifles I may reconsider it when this Golden Tiger dries up.

[CJS06]

Erick

Once again thanks!   I picked up a case to test out.  In my KAC I had 0 malfunctions in 400 rds with completely stock FP and using a Giessele SSA/E trigger.  In my Warsport and my Noveske I had 1 failure to fire each with the remaining 600 rds split between the rifles.  In each of these I had RCA firing pins and Geissele SSA/E triggers.  I had 1 bolt failure to lock back on the Warsport.

The KAC has a proprietary FP with the E3 bolt that I believe is much closer to the enhanced FP in a std bolt. Both my Warsport and Veske use RCA enhanced firing pins. I was under the impression that the RCA enhanced FP was just the black nitriding but otherwise milspec SS. My spare firing pins are the same so I did not have a "std" milspec pin to put a mic on to compare. 

I am picking up at least 5 more cases and possibly 10 as training ammo. I prefer brass case but for that price I can not pas it up.  I did pick up a couple of cases of Wolf Gold for $298 last week, but it sold out almost immediately.

Thanks Again
Chris

[Erick]

Chris,

I am happy to hear you got some of it.
I only published my results on 2 sites (this being one of them)

One expects the returns to dry up soon...
So I hope to still catch a couple extra cases when it comes back available

[Erick]

Back in stock!. Inventory has gone down by 90,000 rds since back in stock 2.5 hrs ago!
Buy now!!!

[Erick]

Back in stock..for now..
http://www.sgammo.com/product/223-556mm-ammo/1000-rounds-loose-223-rem-fmj-steel-case-russian-ammo-hard-primer-sold-read-d