Med kit question

[brat]

What or is there a difference between QuikClot and Celox ? What do ya'll think is the best to get and carry ? I've used the QuikClot combat gauze, but not on anything like a GSW. Vehicle accidents and on me on some of my more careless moments   

[JohnyMac]

I ran across this old post on EDC Forum:

       

I am not a doctor or a medic, I have no experience with either product. However, I think both will work fine, as the quikclot has been improved to not cause an exothermic reaction (which results in severe tissue damage as it is a second degree burn in a wound). Make sure you get the updated granular stuff, or I think any ACS (advanced clotting sponge) you get will not cause an exothermic reaction.

        I also think Celox will be fine, too. I don't know if celox has a sponge option, but I would go with that, it would be much easier to apply to a severe wound.

        Overall, I personally would go for the sponge version of either if celox has a sponge, and would go with the cheaper granular one, since they both work fine. Again, make sure you get the updated version of the granular quikclot, and do your own research to make sure that the kind you get doesn't cause an exothermic reaction. (Exothermic means that the reaction heats up the surrounding environment, like a hot pack. Endothermic would be cool down environment, which is like an instant cold pack).

        Cheers, and I hope this helps somewhat,
        Flash

and...

   

Granular and sponge each have advantages and disadvantages. Granular can be poured into penetrating wounds, while sponges have to be packed--something that's not for the untrained and squeamish. However, granular plain blows if the patient is doing anything but lying down flat in a safe area.
    Currently, QuikClot comes in sponge form (ACS, First Responder, and Sport/Sport Silver) and QC-infused gauze for wound packing. Celox, on the other hand, only comes in granular form, but also comes in an alternate "Celox-A" applicator that allows for use in deep penetrating wounds (knife stabs, GSW, you name it).
    As for exothermic reactions, you'd only find that on the old, granular form of QC, which you can still buy from quite a few suppliers. All of the sponge and gauze forms never reach the sorts of temperatures that the old format did--I believe they claim to max at 105 F, but YMMV.
    For comparison of the effectiveness, I can dig up a couple of videos of their pure effectiveness, but long story short, they both work. They'll both stop a major arterial bleed in minutes; however, Celox has proven itself to be slightly more effective (~100% versus ~95%, IIRC). I don't have any experience or in-depth research of the others (i.e. HemCon), but most of them are prohibitively expensive for me.

We have a few EMTers on this forum and I would love to hear from them too.

[Reaver]

Quickclot taste like shit..... Don't ask lol

Never used anything like it though. Stuffs magical I know that.

[APX808]

Quickclot taste like shit..... Don't ask lol

Tastes like shit before or after mixing it with blood? 

[Kentactic]

Quickclot taste like shit..... Don't ask lol

Never used anything like it though. Stuffs magical I know that.

Remind me not to use my teeth to open the package... lol

[Reaver]

Quickclot taste like shit..... Don't ask lol

Never used anything like it though. Stuffs magical I know that.

Remind me not to use my teeth to open the package... lol

Unless you cut your finger to the bone and can't open the pack with one hand. 

[Grudgie]

    Currently, QuikClot comes in sponge form (ACS, First Responder, and Sport/Sport Silver) and QC-infused gauze for wound packing. Celox, on the other hand, only comes in granular form, but also comes in an alternate "Celox-A" applicator that allows for use in deep penetrating wounds (knife stabs, GSW, you name it).

This is not true anymore. Celox infused gauze has been around for a while and it's what I chose after research. The way I understand, you can still bleed to death unless you stop the bleeding at the scourse. Just pouring a pack of powder clot on a wound and applying pressure is not enough. Even if you apply powder you still need to pack it into the wound. I chose celox gauze because it seems more stable and reliable in a high stress enviornment. Oops! Oh no you just ripped open your pack of granules and it spills everywhere. Dead. A strong wind blows all the powder away. Dead.

Also, I would imagine the gauze could be more easily 'unpacked' if there were no doctors and you had to do it yourself.

I went with Celox because I've heard good things about it and I've read horror stories about guys passing out from the burn of quick clot. Maby they fixed the problem but I'll pass.

And lastly, the way I understand it, cloting agents should only be used on serious arterial bleeding. And if you ever have to use it, you better pray there is a doctor around who knows what they are doing when it's time to take it out because I don't know what to do at that point.

Anyone here any wiser correct me if I'm wrong.

[brat]

Thanks everyone for the help. I'll start looking hard at the Celox Grudgie and place an order.
From the straightforward, candid and impartial reviews here (which is why we "ask the questions" anyway)..... I determined that they both work, but that Celox has to be better tasting than
QuikClot ! 

[Grudgie]

And quick clot might be cheaper and more plentiful because it is issued by the military.

[JohnyMac]

Screw all of that Quikclot or Celox stuff use ordinary wood sawdust man!

I am finishing a tong & groove wall this weekend up at the cabin. Apparently my finish nail gun didn't hammer home a nail all of the way and my arm brushed up against the head. This caused a 3 inch gash which wouldn't stop bleeding.

I walked over the table that the electric miter saw was sitting on and grabbed a bunch of wood sawdust and sprinkled it on my gash. The gash scabbed over and stopped bleeding almost immediately. 

So there you go...Use wood sawdust to stop that bleeding wound from ruining your day.  Now I am sure infection brings on a different set of problems  but I will cross that bridge when I come to it.

Mmmmmm maybe dab the wound with some kerosene. 


 

[Grudgie]

Screw all of that Quikclot or Celox stuff use ordinary wood sawdust man!

I am finishing a tong & groove wall this weekend up at the cabin. Apparently my finish nail gun didn't hammer home a nail all of the way and my arm brushed up against the head. This caused a 3 inch gash which wouldn't stop bleeding.

I walked over the table that the electric miter saw was sitting on and grabbed a bunch of wood sawdust and sprinkled it on my gash. The gash scabbed over and stopped bleeding almost immediately. 

So there you go...Use wood sawdust to stop that bleeding wound from ruining your day.  Now I am sure infection brings on a different set of problems  but I will cross that bridge when I come to it.

Mmmmmm maybe dab the wound with some kerosene. 

This professional medical opinion brought to you by Johnymac.  seriously though. I wonder if that would work for serious bleeding?

[JohnyMac]

Probably the issue would be when it was time to clean ya' up. Wood is a live organism and when it dies it becomes a great host for microorganisms - Both good and bad.

I don't know. Maybe if you boil the saw dust, then air dry it. Then store it in a sterile container. Maybe.

I will say that it stopped my bleeding pronto!

[KillJoy]

The quick answer:

QuikClot gauze is impregnated with a substance called Kaolin, which is basically a white clay. Celox gauze is impregnated chitosan and other Celox proprietary elements.

1st gen QuikClot used to cause secondary exothermic reactions. Subsequent generations of the product no longer produce exothermic reactions; both current gen Celox and QuikClot will not cause any tissue burning.

Both products work with the bodies clotting cascade to form clots. Both products have differing methods of action, which is to long winded and technical to get into right now.

I prefer Celox because of it's ability to coagulate and clot heparinized blood, hypothermic blood and patients on a antiplatelet medication. (EDIT) With a very large percentage of the population who are on or take medications such as Coumadin, Plavix, Aspirin etc, this is a HUGE benefit of Celox. And in regards to hypothermic blood; keep in mind that our patients could, (but we hope not) are displaying some phase of hypovolemic shock which in turn will cause a decrease in body temp as they slip further down the chute. +1 Celox.
Also, are we operating in a cold environment or during the winter season? +1 Celox. Was the patient found in cold water? +1 Celox. These are just some random examples why Celox may be a more effective hemostatic compared to others. I must disclose that I do not get paid by any of these companies. I'm just kind of a nerd when it comes to this stuff.

Hemostatics in granular form are basically being phased out. Current TCCC guidelines and protocols call for hemostatic gauze. Some manufactures are still selling the granular form though. If you're using granular just be sure to scoop out the pooled blood before you pour into the wound. And pack it tight against the bleeder if you are able to locate it.

Also, people freak out about shellfish allergies and chitosan since it is derived from the shell of shellfish. From what I've heard this is completely false as the two proteins are completely different.

[Burt Gummer]

That is super interesting!

Thanks killjoy. I'm located in a predominantly cold environment so this will help.

Now I'm wishing i didn't just pick up some quick clot.

[gadget99]

Great thread.

Killjoy, thank you for the info.

Since I am in the UK, I have the advantage of a huge amount of Ex-Soviet Era surplus in the EU Market.

We picked up two cases of Russian field dressings. 80 per case at £18.00 to the case. They are like the old army field dressing yet a bit better. I will do a review on them sometime.

Probably looking at getting some Medical grade Kaolin to package up with them.

Sent from my B1-710 using Tapatalk

[brat]

Thanks Killjoy. After everyone's help here and some internet searching, Celox is in my IFAK along with other dressings and my SOFTT-W tourniquets. I found this info. while looking.

http://www.celoxmedical.com/usa/usaresources/resourceshow-it-works/

In a test of hemostatic agents on lethal hemorrhagic groin injuries, Celox reduced rebleeding to 0% and improved survival 100% over a standard gauze application. HemCon and QuickClot were much lower.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18211317

In a recent comparative study sponsored by the US military, Celox Gauze had 90 % survival, that was 20 % more than any other hemostatic gauze in the test. It also had the lowest total blood loss.

Also, if you carry a SOFTT-W tourniquet, you might find this link useful as it demonstrates a way to "flat fold" your SOFFT-W and make it quicker to access.

http://www.itstactical.com/medcom/medical/streamline-your-softt-w-tourniquet-with-this-diy-flat-fold-method/

[Grudgie]

Celox Haemostatic Agent

Pretty good vidoo showing cellox stopping arterial bleeding.