Author Topic: Ebola discussion  (Read 11729 times)

Offline Erick

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Ebola discussion
« on: July 30, 2014, 10:45:09 PM »
Realize this is my first post here so I wanted to make it a high content one for my friend Johnymac who admins on here.
I will try to keep it basic but still useful .....
(it's a copy/paste of something I wrote elsewhere)

First Lets get some references right so we can discuss this intelligently:
Outbreak: Lots more cases than normal
Epidemic: geographically widespread outbreak
Pandemic: very widely spread outbreak such as affecting a large part of the world.

A short synopsis on what Ebola is:
- Viral, specifically a Filovirus (very untypical form looks like a twine or twig , most viruses are more compact)
- Hemorrhagic fever causing (lots of internal and some external bleeding due to tissue and blood vessel degradation
- Contrary to Wikipedia not really all that infectious, certainly alot less than the flu or cold, extreme precautions are taken are due to lack of cure and lethality.
- Lethality rates up to 90% (this strain a lot less, more later)
- Incubation period 2-21 (!) days.

The Virus is called Ebola Virus (though many add a specifier for the strain) the disease state is called EVD, which means Ebola Virus Disease.

Original symptoms: Many are similar to Influenza and many other lesser diseases, : sore throat, fever, headaches, muscle pains.

Also later diarrhea, nausea, vomiting, which then progresses to the Hallmarks of the Hemorrhagic fevers , bleeding from eyes, ears, anus etc etc

But the very early stages it is not as obvious as to what it is, (unless you use advanced detection such as PCR to look for Virus titer in the bloodstream)

What happens normally in Ebola Outbreaks?

a) some people get sick and die in one village
b) same in a neighboring village
c) maybe a couple of medics
- Virus fizzles out as it kills quickly and everyone stays away from the obviously infected who are bleeding out of all orifices as they lie dying
- All infected humans are dead. no more transmission
- Outbreak over

What happened here?

we have a) and b) and c) but no fizzling.
the disease just keeps going and going.

Why whats different?
back in March I was in a discussion group with some Scientists and MD’s and it was already obvious to me that this outbreak was different.

Why? because it wasn’t stopping and was spreading over 3 countries.

As I asked the folks in the discussion group what they thought was making the difference this time? as the outbreak was surely distinct, both geographically and in its spread?
I was told,, no F. its the same as usual, bats are the reservoir, then primates got sick, then humans from primates yada yada blah blah, blah

But something WAS different.
It was obvious 1st we very rarely had outbreaks in this part of Africa and when we did they were short and small. the only outbreak that ever came close was in the heart of Ebola country Central Africa not west.

Fast Forward 3 months,
the Outbreak is still going strong and many are calling it an Epidemic.

And we find out something interesting:

- This strain IS different genetically from other Ebola strains
- It is less lethal (lethality 50-65%)
- The onset of hemorrhagic symptoms occurs much later in the disease progression

Those of you that have enjoyed my Seminars will understand now. why this strain has not stopped:

- Less lethality often means slower onset of symptoms so individuals can be infectious , even if only a little, while free or largely free of symptoms.
- Slow onset not just of symptoms in general but of symptoms specific to EVD will create windows in which people will not yet engage in social distancing with infected people with predictable results.

When human being go “Yuck he looks like a real sick dude, I;m gonna stay away” this disgust reaction is how nature creates social distancing mechanisms to protect people.

When the virus shows the nasty symptoms late than this protectio n mechanism is devalued.

I am convinced this is why this particular outbreak is ongoing.

Witness the Liberia official Sawyer (family resident in Minnesota), he was well enough to board a plane to Lagos Nigeria, to hold on to tickets and take a seat while being in late stage of EVD.

This is evidenced by the fact that he collapsped shortly after arrival.
yet when getting his ticket and boarding he did not display the typical Ebola symptoms or NO ONE would have let him on the plane!

This is why this is spreading.
Its not MORE lethal than “normal” Ebola it simply is gentler in its symptoms and actually less lethal in speed of death and in % lethality.

This is why it hasnt fizzled.
As some of you will recall I always harp on it that LESS lethal diseases can easier become an epidemic than more lethal ones right?

What does this mean for us?
Its easier for someone to travel to the US and not display symptoms and get sick here and spread it here.

However at this time I think it unlikely this strain of Ebola will turn into a pandemic or become a significant problem here, since Ebola is not very transmissible (need to exchange bodily fluids, though 1 airborne transmission from pigs to monkeys has been shown to occur the the lab!)

I covered what I felt was useful+needed but I encourage any and all questions so go ahead and ask.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 08:08:18 AM by Erick »
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Burt Gummer

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Re: Ebola discussion
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2014, 01:23:22 AM »
How long does Ebola survive outside of host on inanimate surfaces?

And does it transmit through perspiration?

Offline Erick

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Re: Ebola discussion
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2014, 07:25:28 AM »
How long does Ebola survive outside of host on inanimate surfaces?

And does it transmit through perspiration?

-Like most viruses it only survives so long as the body fluid it leaves the host in, stays wet and protects it form air.
Air inactivates viruses (primarily by oxidizing those parts of its "coat" that it uses to attach to and then penetrate into cells) We're generally talking a maximum of minutes here.

- There is still come debate on that, but most say yes its very possible. Primary means is blood and to  a lesser extent saliva though.
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Offline Well-Prepared Witch

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Re: Ebola discussion
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2014, 07:31:50 AM »
Thanks for this post. Great information here.
If that which you seek you find not within yourself, you shall never find it without.  - Charge of the Goddess, Doreen Valiente
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Offline JohnyMac

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Re: Ebola discussion
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2014, 09:00:06 AM »
Erick,
It's great to see that you made it over to the prepping side.  :thumbsUp:

Awesome post on Ebola and timely as it is in the news.

Don't forget to post a short intro in the introduction board.  ;D
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brat

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Re: Ebola discussion
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2014, 06:41:50 PM »
Thanks for passing on your expertise. Welcome to UP !!

Offline Erick

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Re: Ebola discussion
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2014, 08:32:46 PM »
Thanks for the kind words fellas.

Feel free to ask questions if you want nuances explained.
The goal is ot give you a better understanding than what you get by looking it up via google :)

Cheers,

« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 10:49:54 PM by Erick »
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Offline Nemo

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Re: Ebola discussion
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2014, 08:50:58 PM »
Erick, seems your info is accurate and good to know currently, but a bit on your qualifications would be good.  Yes I am one of those pencil neck guys who want to know why I should give some guy credibility for some serious and difficult things when he has not given me a basis for it.

Nemo  :tinfoil:
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Offline Erick

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Re: Ebola discussion
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2014, 09:10:43 PM »
Alright Nemo, if you insist... :whip:

- 20 + years as a WMD anti -terrorist CBRN responder (entry team), later Senior on site Scientific Analyst, for such responses....... Worked in a National Lab that verifies treaty compliance for Chemical weapons treaties w/ other countries,.. worked mobileCBRN/WMD response laboratories.... Taught other scientists mobile response laboratory operations. .... Served as Advisor to Senior State and Federal decision makers for emergency response planning for weapons of mass destruction events..... helped write environmental sampling protocols for known or suspected CBRN agents (which are very distinct form clinical protocols)..... Was involved in editing some of the manuals that the Army CBRN school uses to teach their CBRN experts.

Performed PCR, GCMS and Gamma spectroscopy among many many other techniques in support of the above.

That's about the maximum I want to disclose, so I can keep  a little privacy so not everyone can just google me. :)
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 09:13:24 PM by Erick »
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Offline JohnyMac

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Re: Ebola discussion
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2014, 09:22:54 PM »
Erick is the real deal and I am stoked that he has chosen to spend some time here.

My concern is that if Erick and Burt were to spend some time together, they probably would invent something dastardly, that I could market and make a mint off of.  Hey that's a good thing :dancingGrenade:  :cheers:
 
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Offline JohnyMac

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Re: Ebola discussion
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2014, 10:17:52 PM »
Erick,
Maybe this questions is a bit proletariat BUT how does one protect themselves and family from acquiring the EVD? Obviously avoiding contaminated areas where infection has been reported. However, as stated earlier the new strain of the disease is slower to act.

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Offline Erick

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Re: Ebola discussion
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2014, 10:23:44 PM »
Erick,
Maybe this questions is a bit proletariat BUT how does one protect themselves and family from acquiring the EVD? Obviously avoiding contaminated areas where infection has been reported. However, as stated earlier the new strain of the disease is slower to act.

Social distancing is very powerful.
Also Ebola is like most viruses not very hardy.
Soap kills it (as does air), so engage in frequent handwashing or glove exchanges.

If you are in the middle on an outbreak for some reason, wear gloves , wear eyepro to protect your eyes from hand to eye transmission as humans on average touch their face 3000 times a day, wear a N95 surgical mask. to protect your mouth from same.

As long as you dont interact  with a lot of infected like a medic would in a clinical setting, these precautions should be entirely sufficient.
This is about the level of protection that caregivers have in the african countries ( plus sometimes they wear tyvek suits).

At times they get sick anyway.. but they interact with VERY sick people a LOT so its not quite comparable to casual being out in public during an outbreak.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 10:42:15 PM by Erick »
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Offline special-k

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Re: Ebola discussion
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2014, 10:27:50 PM »
Pssst....Nemo....
Show content
:lmfao:
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Burt Gummer

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Re: Ebola discussion
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2014, 01:43:50 AM »
Yeah... I have no idea what I'm talking about most of the time but, I did stay at a holiday in last night. ...

Burt Gummer

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Re: Ebola discussion
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2014, 01:58:34 AM »
Erick would you be willing to enlighten the forum and myself what the SOP is for operating during a (not necessarily Ebola) biological hazard? and your personal experiences with it?

perhaps touching on subjects such as:
-Movement, mounted/dismounted
-decontamination
-interaction with unknown persons
-common misconceptions & fuckups.

Oh and a personal question, what should I use as a protective garment? because I doubt an issued A-charcoal padded CBRN suit is necessary.

Offline Erick

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Re: Ebola discussion
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2014, 07:53:19 AM »
Burt I can do that.
But that will be a major write-up and likely seperate thread.

I am leaving tomorrow morning for a multi day combat rifle class, so such a major write-up will not happen this weekend. :)

I'll answer the last question now though:

- No a MOPP style suit is generally overkill  for a prepper, as is a supplied breathing air of course.

- Goggles,
- Gloves
- N95 mask
- clothing change when coming back to your BOL (then wash)

... that will take care of 95% of bio threats for you while preserving most of your dexterity and situational awareness
« Last Edit: August 01, 2014, 07:59:03 AM by Erick »
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Offline rah45

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Re: Ebola discussion
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2014, 08:51:40 AM »
As someone who just successfully navigated through Microbiology 101, I feel that I should build some sort of effigy to Erick on this forum.

EIDs are the scariest threats I've read about thus far. This Ebola evolution is nuts.

graynomad

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Re: Ebola discussion
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2014, 09:46:24 AM »
I was told on another forum that you can still get EVD from a survivor, in other words they become carriers.

Can somebody confirm or refute this info? Because if it's true it doesn't matter if you hide for 10 years as soon as you re-enter what's left of society and get chummy with a survivor you are toast.

Offline Erick

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Re: Ebola discussion
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2014, 03:40:16 PM »
1)
Can somebody confirm or refute this info?
2)
 Because if it's true it doesn't matter if you hide for 10 years as soon as you re-enter what's left of society and get chummy with a survivor you are toast.

1) True this has happened.

2) Not neccessarily. There is only  a single case like that known at this time (to my knowledge) And this was 3 months after recovery when a male survivor infected his wife (she died :( ). To my knowledge no cases longer than 3 months post- recovery have been known. Based on available data I would consider it  a non-threat after 3 months
« Last Edit: August 01, 2014, 03:56:20 PM by Erick »
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Offline Erick

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Re: Ebola discussion
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2014, 08:04:10 PM »
I'll be offline for a few days.. just FYI
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graynomad

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Re: Ebola discussion
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2014, 08:38:01 PM »
Thanks Eric, so stay out of it for the duration plus 3 months (maybe 6 just to be on the safe side).

Offline Erick

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Re: Ebola discussion
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2014, 08:46:23 PM »
Thanks Eric, so stay out of it for the duration plus 3 months (maybe 6 just to be on the safe side).

YW

yes, More than 3 months after  a person has survived should be safe to be very friendly with them :)
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Offline Nemo

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Re: Ebola discussion
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2014, 11:19:47 PM »
Alright Nemo, if you insist... :whip:

- 20 + years as a WMD anti -terrorist CBRN responder (entry team), later Senior on site Scientific Analyst, for such responses....... Worked in a National Lab that verifies treaty compliance for Chemical weapons treaties w/ other countries,.. worked mobileCBRN/WMD response laboratories.... Taught other scientists mobile response laboratory operations. .... Served as Advisor to Senior State and Federal decision makers for emergency response planning for weapons of mass destruction events..... helped write environmental sampling protocols for known or suspected CBRN agents (which are very distinct form clinical protocols)..... Was involved in editing some of the manuals that the Army CBRN school uses to teach their CBRN experts.

Performed PCR, GCMS and Gamma spectroscopy among many many other techniques in support of the above.

That's about the maximum I want to disclose, so I can keep  a little privacy so not everyone can just google me. :)

Didnt really insist.  Just asked.  Call me a jerk or out of order or whatever but I have seen a few posts and posters on the internet that looked terrific to know and rely on that turned out to be dead wrong.  Seemed solid and reliable but did could not stand the test of time and analysis by properly credentialed people.

I learned long ago that just because you read it on the internet does not mean its true.  Some people do post bad info.    :sarcasm:

Info like this is great to know and IMHO, currently extra necessary to know.  If I am going to rely on it, I want to know its solid info.

This guy sounds like the real deal.  I will pay close attention to his info.

As to the serve-- seems to me I got a reasonable return.

Nemo

If you need a second magazine, its time to call in air support.

God created Man, Col. Sam Colt made him equal, John Moses Browning turned equality to perfection, Gaston Glock turned perfection into plastic fantastic junk.

Offline Erick

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Re: Ebola discussion
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2014, 04:29:31 AM »
Nemo, no worries  :thumbsUp:
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Offline thatGuy

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Re: Ebola discussion
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2014, 08:39:08 AM »
Wow, I go hiking for the weekend and look at the wonderful discussion I missed!

Welcome aboard Eric and thanks for the info!