The Defense of Israel - Constitutional or Not?

[rah45]

Check this out. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_corsairs

We were involved with Moslem extremists in the early 1800's. Seems to be a reoccurring theme.

I know. I did say modern Muslims.    From what I remember, their was more of a pirating operation, and not much of a threat once Jefferson stood up to them.

That was self-defense, too, just to help make my point. 

[WhiteWolf]

I can appreciate that, but at no point am I trying to dictate my morals or beliefs on anyone. This is my personality. However, I follow the Bible and God before I follow the Constitution. If God were to have me piss on it I would because ultimately you're more free in him than you will ever be in this ill conceived state. The Constitution is supposed to be nothing more than a safe guard against tyranny. However it does nothing for morals and virtue of this nation. In fact as the nation has "progressed" over the past 50 years they've done more to get rid of morals than to promote them. Why else is there so much emphasis on taking the child away from the parents and driving them towards society? It's like when I told you "liberty" is a double edged sword. You can either give liberty, or you can take it. The word itself is an oxymoron because I can impose my "liberty" on someone elses at any given point. You may not like to look at that reality, but no where does the Constitution provide the morals and the virtue to instill true freedom. The other side of this coin is regardless of what you think it is still just a piece of paper. It can be in no way be proven to be otherwise. You can not scientifically prove anything it says. It is an ethical philosophy created by deist. It ultimately does not stop anyone or anything.

I was referring to you advocating taxpayers' money funding federal military support of Israel based on your personal moral obligations to the religion you chose. I do not agree with your religious views and, while I respect them, I will not have them dictate what I do with my or my family's life's work and property (money) through your representatives. I accept you don't believe in a higher authority. It's hard for someone to admit their wrong and believe they should repent things they shouldn't do, but no means do I believe that makes you a bad person. I also do not believe the Bible mandates the U.S. government to support Israel. Again, it's about more than Israel. However, the US government is made up of citizens who are supposed to abide by the common will and good of the US voters. Who are mainly Christian. The Bible does mandate that you are your brothers keeper. It's not a question of government or the Consitution. I can't say this enough. IT'S NOT AN EHTICAL QUESTION. IT'S A MORAL ONE. It orders you, WW, as a Christian to obey the laws of your land, and to support Israel as an individual believer. So, you are still able to obey the Constitution by opposing the Federal government's allotment of taxpayer dollars for Israel, while promoting the individual American's support of Israel. It orders nothing. You really need to quit kicking the Israeli horse because it pertains to other nations as well. The fact is American's like yourself are drawing forgone conclusions about a potential war supporting Israel given the past wars recently in Iraq and Afghanistan. A guy like Paul comes along and tells you what you want to hear. "No more war." Only problem is with stances like that we'd have let Germany continue to unleash it's wrath and only attacked Japan. Eventually we would have had to deal with them. No different than Iran, China, Russia, Syria, etc. And that's a core problem with Americans. They think in 4 year terms.

I agree that the Constitution provides no morality. It only ever provided a means for people to pursue freedom and liberty while having a lawful defense against unconstitutional aggression against themselves. It is certainly not perfect, and is indeed a piece of paper. What makes it powerful are the ideas behind it, which are the closest that mankind has ever gotten to true freedom for a society (religious views aside - I'm speaking of the secular world, here). The Constitution has the power from the people who support it. I and many millions of others stand behind it. This is its source of power. It is filled with words, laws, that we agree to uphold and defend because it forms the basis of a social contract for a people extending across a continent.Well I'm happy you feel free in a nation that I feel confined. The secular world has been dragging this nation down for years and the proof is in the state this nation exist currently. The secular world pulled God from schools and illegally instituted evolution as accepted scientific "truth." What freedom is that John? These indoctrinated theories of our alleged "freedoms" are a sick joke. And honestly it shocks me that so many Americans cling to the Constitution as some sort of "god" within itself. In the same way you say it's power comes from it's supporters so does the Bible. A historically proven document containing laws that have been the precept across the world long before the Constitution. And once again, it's ethical not moral. What freaking moral compass does the secular world looking to the Constitution provide for the world?

I understand that. However, you say "forcing" because you believe it would lead to war eventually. Do you know what the fundamental difference was with WWII and every war we've fought since? It was morally fulfilling and Americans knew the sacrifice wasn't in vain when they saw evidence of the Holocaust and the sheer carnage throughout Europe. That is a war worth fighting. In fact I'll take it a step further to say that invading any nation over political or economic interest is HORRIBLE. When you take those factors away from the people of Israel you have to look them in the face and say "sorry, you're not worth risking my life." If this nation actually had an honest conscious I'd have joined the military long ago.

No, I say "forcing" because the Constitution greatly restricts power to the Federal government, and does not allow it to use taxpayer money to support Israel. Yet it's allowed Christians practices and views to be impeded upon since it's conception.The Founders limited the Federal government's power because we as individuals do not agree on everything, and as such only the basic, common needs should be served by the Federal government. You can color it red, white, and blue, but it's still socialism. Common defense, profitable trade for the states, and an aid for resolving internal conflicts is what the Founders intended for the Federal government.  Today, the government "forces," because only a portion of its citizens advocates it, people to pay for unconstitutional conflicts of which they don't approve, national healthcare they don't want, etc. The Federal government is not granted that power under the Constitution, our social contract with one another as Americans. You need to start understanding that as much as you grip to the Constitution the ramifications of many, if not all, federal or state appointed legislations are not constitutional. However, from a secular world view I can see how people believe it could be. Americans are always going to disagree. I say build a pipeline. Someone else says ecological fallout. I say build solar power. Someone else says coal. I say Pepsi. You say coke. We're all different. You can not solve a nations issues by always taking an ethical approach. Probably why lawsuits run wild in this nation.

I won't hold it against you for saying "empire," but I'd not use terms like that to describe us. And we've not been a republic for decades. The idea that people still believe we have been shows how out of touch they are. Socialist started taking over this nation right after it's conception. Dare I say right after the Revolutionary War. Also, how is it you can sit there and say it's not okay for me to dictate morals (which I'm not) and yet you say the Federal government should be doing things to benefit "ALL" Americans. That's a slippery slope my friend. There's no way to make all Americans benefit or even have a general good without segregating others. "One man's pleasure is another man's pain." Also, the government does NOTHING to dictate morals. Because certain individuals cry "seperation of church and state." That wasn't supposed to mean the church stays out of the state. It's supposed to mean the state stays the hell out of the church. Or do I need to give everyone a history lesson here on why the colonist/ Pilgrims left England?

I won't debate the "republic/empire" issue with you, as it's intended as a broad term to satisfy anyone here with differing views. If you and I had a conversation regarding it, we'd probably agree on many things. Also, when I described the Federal benefits to "ALL" Americans, my intent was to describe the three basic reasons the government was founded that DO benefit all Americans: common defense of all the states, since 13 or 50 states acting independently makes for a poor military; organized trade on a national level, to further positive economic goals of one organized entity, instead of 50 smaller entities; dispute resolution, so that we may get along peacefully and remain as a Union, with the benefits of combine trade and common defense of 50 smaller "republics." Regarding separation of church and state...why are you bringing this up? I never mentioned it. I think the state should stay out of the church, and that the church is, and always has been, separate from political processes. The people who participate may be religious individuals, but the religion itself does not control the state. While I understand what you're saying, and it looks good on paper, those three basic benefits to the Federal government have done more to work against us in the past two decades than benefit us. Probably because people kept allowing them to have more power thinking "well the Constitution will product us." I think you need to go back an reread my statement on church and state and how it pertains to this specific conversation. The state has imposed far more on religion than people, well the secular world, cares to realize because they don't feel it pertains to them.

I feel I addressed this in other statements. And I feel free to send money to Israel. However, not the government, but in ministry for the people.

I support you doing whatever it is you want to do. Send your money to the government, the people, or both. Just do it from an individual level, and don't advocate giving the Federal government the authority to use my tax money to fund them. If I want to make a contribution to Israel, I will do it on my own time, on my own initiative, as an individual. I want the U.S. government to do nothing more in this respect than ensure the common defense of myself and my fellow law-abiding Americans.

I appreciate that, but like I said, it'll go to the ministry. Certainly not their government. And by no means would I expect you or anyone else of the secular world to feel obligated to do so when you don't understand why we do it. Though I'll be really honest, I differ stongly on what I want the US government to do. I want them to piss off and leave Christians and non Christians the heck alone. Then maybe you'll see some of that freedom you like.

[sledge]

I hope this doesn't turn nasty.  Before this gets too much farther ya'll might want to refer to the forum rules.   

[EJR914]

I hope this doesn't turn nasty.  Before this gets too much farther ya'll might want to refer to the forum rules.   

Don't worry Sledge, I'll take the high road on this one.  I tried to debate with him back on Lock N Load, and just got more of the same snide attacks on my faith and character that I just got here.

No thanks, I'll just ignore him.  Too many personal attacks and no real substance to any of his arguments.  He's already repeating back what he did on Lock and Load.  Ignored.

[RS762]

That's some of the most indoctrinated rubbish I've heard in a long time. TCS would be proud. Last time we talked I recall, I thought, you called yourself a Christian. Or are you one of those Nicolaitan dogma believers that doesn't understand the finer points of scripture as it pertains to the world around us?

Would Jesus would approve of a joint US-Israeli preemptive strike on Iran?
I kinda doubt it to be honest. 

But whatevs, im sure questioning the merits of Nicolaitan dogma is more important.

[RS762]

Please take that last comment lightly Whitewolf, upon retrospect I think it sounds douchier than i intended.

[WhiteWolf]

That's some of the most indoctrinated rubbish I've heard in a long time. TCS would be proud. Last time we talked I recall, I thought, you called yourself a Christian. Or are you one of those Nicolaitan dogma believers that doesn't understand the finer points of scripture as it pertains to the world around us?

Would Jesus would approve of a joint US-Israeli preemptive strike on Iran?
I kinda doubt it to be honest. 

But whatevs, im sure questioning the merits of Nicolaitan dogma is more important.

No, and I never said he would. In fact, I'm certain he doesn't agree with the reasons our soldiers are in the middle east as we speak. Though, ultimately you're right RS. The dangerous rhetoric of Nicolaitan based "christianity" is the bigger issue here. 

[WhiteWolf]

Please take that last comment lightly Whitewolf, upon retrospect I think it sounds douchier than i intended.

LOL, nah man it's all good. You got to remember you were the number one poster one MrLnL. I've talk to you enough and read enough of your post to know when you're being a douche. Which is actually quite rare.

[rah45]

WW, I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you. I believe that your religious views influence your political views so much that it will be quite difficult for me to debate with you. We have at the core of our beliefs two very different ideals: you have God, and I have personal liberty/freedom. So, I will say that I respect your choices as an individual regarding how you live your life, applaud your efforts to promote and defend them, and move on from this. I cannot see it furthering any goals, and believe we could spend a great deal more time going back and forth on this issue and others.

 [URL=http://www.smileyvault.co

[505th.NM.Militia]

I think it's pretty obvious at this point that the constitution is completely disregarded by those who have usurped control of the government of the United States of America.  Unfortunately those same oppressive villans have also taken and twisted religious idologies in this country to suit their own dark ends as well.  If we can't agree on political intentions, or religious beliefs, at least we should be able to see that we share a common interested:  to no longer have our ideas and beliefs coopted by a violent opressive system of control.

Freedom of speech is the right to remain silent when anything you say can be used against you in a court of law.  The right to bear arms is tantamount to conscription.  The freedom of religion we have only applies to the creation and funding of institutions masqurading as churches.   Don't believe me?  Go try to exercise your right to assemble and see if you can avoid getting your head caved in by some dirty copper.   Or try to vote if you are in a poor black neighborhood.   Let's not forget that thier's an amendment in their somewhere ending prohibition, just don't try to use any natural plants or chemicals even if they are harmless.

I think the constitution is so narrow in its focus, and so antiquated in its design and interpretation that it no longer serves its purpose.  I feell the same about most religious dogma unfortunatly. 

[RS762]

"the grid" is amazing.
It divides and polarizes, the current socio-political climate even turns the well-intentioned against each other.
The concept of subjective morality and political marxism has really fucked this country over in more way than one.

[Reaver]

I had this big spiel written about this issue. But I will just keep my trap filled with calf and not say anything once again.

[WhiteWolf]

I think the constitution is so narrow in its focus, and so antiquated in its design and interpretation that it no longer serves its purpose.  I feell the same about most religious dogma unfortunatly.

Than sir, you and I agree greatly. However, I doubt many here can begin to understand my stand point without a proper desire to understand the religion. Following truly good morals as opposed to normative ethics which have been indoctrinated on the general American population is the point. Until people do that they are no more awake than those they call sheep.

[WhiteWolf]

"the grid" is amazing.
It divides and polarizes, the current socio-political climate even turns the well-intentioned against each other.
The concept of subjective morality and political marxism has really fucked this country over in more way than one.

Well said. The other thing I would add to this is the historical revisionism. It's nothing less than a crime against the people of this nation.

[tominphx]

Foreign aid in general is not constitutional. If congress votes to go to war to protect Isreal, that is certainly constitutional, just not wise.

Also, who says Isreal even needs our protection? If we cut off all foreign aid, their neighbors (/enemies?) would be far worse off anyway. And besides, it's not about who has the latest greatest whiz bang technojunk, it's about mindset, tactics, and skill, which the Isrealis have historically proven to have all 3 in spades, whereas Arab militaries are largely considered a joke in modern warefare, especially when fighting Isreal. I mean they routinely get 300-1 type kill ratios in air combat, while fighting against multiple aggressors, and that was also before they had billions in US dollars pumped into their defense budget. They won their independence with nazi mausers loaded with rounds made from brass lipstick cases, and where as outnumbered than as today, they really don't need our money. And if shit goes really downhill from them, they'll just let fly with the canned sunshine.  [img]http://www.smileydesign.n