This is my Draco

[Rail Driver]

You must not have been trained on the proper use of a sling.

Yah, that must be it

Well, smartass comments like yours are generally used to mask ignorance.

Or you could just have nothing better to do than act like an ass... Maybe you lost your job and had to move back in with mommy and daddy, or maybe you're really just a 14yr old mall ninja pretending to be a man... Hey, I know, maybe you stubbed your toe and haven't had your coffee this morning! That's it!

 In either case, I think I'm done having anything to do with you. See how it goes? When you're a rude, smartass individual, people are rude right back. Carry on and have a good one.

[505th.NM.Militia]

Allright break it up you two.  I personally use a single point sling on a draco pistol as my primary. Why?  because as Raildriver pointed out, the tax stamp system is costly and difficult to navigate for some.  As Dave points out, there are better alternatives, but not for $400 out the door.  So you're both wrong, i mean, you're both right...ARRGGHHH!!!   [url=http://yoursmiles.org/p-m

[technique]

You must not have been trained on the proper use of a sling.

Yah, that must be it

Chuckle...

[sledge]

You must not have been trained on the proper use of a sling.

Yah, that must be it

Chuckle...

Oh man, Dave that has got to be the coolest response I've seen in some time.    I'm gonna steal it!

Rail I don't think he was trying to be a smart ass with you.  I read it more like a "Yeah, right."

Dave, and for that matter technique, pretty much have their shit together when talking weapons.  I've consistently read both of their posts and I get the feeling that they didn't gain their knowledge from reading books.  I'm not saying you did.  I'm just saying I haven't found very much at all I could argue with in their posts concerning weapons.

And I've looked 'cause that's one of my favorite things to do.

Now on space lizards, that's a different story.   Those boys don't know jack about space lizards.  lol

Hey, you guys share your info but lets not berate those who disagree.  (Because someone always disagrees!)
I honestly haven't tried a folder with a sling to steady the aim.  I know rail says it works great for him.  I'd be a little uneasy with it.

Ain't America Great!

[Rail Driver]

If he didn't mean his comment to be a smartass then I'm happy to retract my own, that's just how I read it and it's one of the dangers of the internet. Text can't provide tone.

In any case, a short sling on a pistol does wonders to stabilize it. If I'm not mistaken, I think it's the isrealis that came up with the method, but don't quote me on it because I'm not sure. The only positions I've found that give me trouble when I'm shooting with a sling, vs. shooting with a stock are prone and other positions where I'm stretched out and can't loop the sling well enough around my upper body. In those types of positions a stock is clearly superior. I never really said the sling was better than a stock anyway.

It's an effective alternative for someone who doesn't want to deal with the NFA process, or to use while waiting for approval.

Even with a stock, I like having the option should I need to fire the weapon with the stock folded for whatever reason.

[technique]

You're getting some good advice here, RD.
Not everyday you get pointers from a combat vet and firearms instructor.

Personally, I also own a Draco. For me it's a novelty type weapon, that's how I perceive it.
However, my SCAR folds and I see your point about stability while firing with it in that position
and I think Dave can too.

[Rail Driver]

You're getting some good advice here, RD.
Not everyday you get pointers from a combat vet and firearms instructor.

Personally, I also own a Draco. For me it's a novelty type weapon, that's how I perceive it.
However, my SCAR folds and I see your point about stability while firing with it in that position
and I think Dave can too.

I'm having trouble seeing where "SBR it or there's no point" is good advice, just my opinion.
No, it's not every day I get advice from combat vets and firearms instructors, but it happens often enough that I can tell good advice when I see it (and I don't deny that there's a lot of that on this site).

I spent a few years in the military (Active Duty, U.S. Army, 1999 - 2001) and got some training there and have taken a few courses since. Nothing special, and I'm not saying I'm better or worse trained than anyone here, just that I've been there too.

I don't see the Draco (or mini) as a novelty, at least not in a caliber that can tolerate a short barrel without losing a lot, and the 7.62x39 cartridge is well suited to short barrels (only ~12fps difference between 16" bbl and 8" bbl). Properly stocked, it's a formidable entry or close quarters (vehicular combat) weapon. With a sling instead of a stock it's more difficult to use and is much less stable, but still a very viable weapon. I also like the idea of a short compact weapon that uses the same high capacity magazines and ammo as my full size rifle (a converted Saiga, side folding stock).

Ironically, my next project will be an AR-15 pistol, though I'm not sure whether I want to go with 5.56 or another caliber (requires more research).

[thatGuy]

This topic is a perfect example of quiet/self moderation. Thanks guys.

[Dave_M]

Rail I don't think he was trying to be a smart ass with you.  I read it more like a "Yeah, right."

^This.

Evidently I need to flesh out my posts a bit. When I said, "SBR or no point" I was speaking in terms of practicality. Rifle caliber pistols are good for stuff like this:


They can be a ton of fun (pictured is an 8" AKM I built back before commercial pistol receivers were available; to do it legally you had to roll your own) but isn't the top of practicality.

Here's a pic of me demonstrating forward sling tension from 06' /w a shitty Keltec

Wow, check out the magwell grabbing! Boy, times sure have changed 

Yes, adding a sling and providing forward tension can help with stability but it's nowhere near the control of even an unslung stocked longarm. That's what I meant with my second comment.

I 100% absolutely guarantee that if you tested drills (such as a Viking Tactics 2x2x2 or an el' Presidente) yourself using a shot clock between the two, they would be worlds apart in terms of speed and accuracy. This is simple and you can test it yourself. Don't always listen to the dude on the internet because the shot clock cannot lie (the shooter can sandbag, of course but then they're only lying to themselves [invariably to justify purchases]).

What forward sling tension does is allow it to be better than with no sling at all. It's not magic, it's a stop gap that makes the pistol marginally more useful. 

Raildriver- Going full retard isn't always the best recommendation. I'd encourage thicker skin in the future.

[thatGuy]

Raildriver- Going full retard isn't always the best recommendation. I'd encourage thicker skin in the future.

Jesus Dave,

You are one sexy bastard and funny too!

Oh and everyone calm down we are trying to learn here.

[Ghost]

Raildriver- Going full retard isn't always the best recommendation. I'd encourage thicker skin in the future.

Jesus Dave,

You are one sexy bastard and funny too!

Oh and everyone calm down we are trying to learn here.

 

Bromance?

[Kobalt]

Dam am I the only one that isent a scary Beast with tats?

[Kentactic]

the Draco with a sling or not... isnt nearly as stable to shoot as a weapon with a stock... because you go from having 4 points of contact (cheek, shoulder, right hand, left hand) to just two points of contact (both hands).. and a sling wont make up for those two loss of contacts on the gun. just wont.... not even close....

and Dave i dont see anything wrong with grabbing the magwell on such a short weapon  [URL=http://www.smileyvault.co

-Kenny

[sledge]

Dam am I the only one that isent a scary Beast with tats?

lol, don't worry young blood.  I don't have any tats either.  Just some scars I try to keep covered.  Although, I've been thinking about a bunny rabbit tat to soften my look up.  But my wife's against it.  She thinks I want it so I can start some shit with anyone who makes fun of it.  Not true, those days are in the past. 

I just happen to like bunny rabbits.   

Anyway, back to the Draco's.     

[505th.NM.Militia]

Dam am I the only one that isent a scary Beast with tats?

Yes.   

[sledge]

Dam am I the only one that isent a scary Beast with tats?

Yes.   

lol,  505 You've got a little mean streak running there don'tcha?   lol

[Kobalt]

Dam am I the only one that isent a scary Beast with tats?

Yes.   

In case you havent noticed dressing like the devil is faggy.

[sledge]

Dam am I the only one that isent a scary Beast with tats?

Yes.   

In case you havent noticed dressing like the devil is faggy.

I suspect you wouldn't call the devil faggy if you met up with him face to face.  lol
And we need to tie this back in to Draco's so I'll add that I hear the devil carries one.

[505th.NM.Militia]

I wouldn't call this novelty by an stretch of the imagination...  this is all buidness.

[505th.NM.Militia]

except maybe dude's headband. 

[Dave_M]

I wouldn't call this novelty by an stretch of the imagination...  this is all buidness.

Do some drills with a shot clock when compared to an unslung fixed-stock weapon. Report back

[Kobalt]

Dam am I the only one that isent a scary Beast with tats?

Yes.   

In case you havent noticed dressing like the devil is faggy.

I suspect you wouldn't call the devil faggy if you met up with him face to face.  lol
And we need to tie this back in to Draco's so I'll add that I hear the devil carries one.

Dood I should message you one of my papers.

[sledge]

I wouldn't call this novelty by an stretch of the imagination...  this is all buidness.

lol  This pic is great!  It looks like a still shot from a Rambo movie!  That bandanna is the frosting on the cake.  lol 

You're the man 505!  Give those gooks hell!  lol

[Rail Driver]

I've got 18 tats, but they're not as large or as IN YOUR FACE as Dave_M's 

I like the photos you provided. I'll see about getting some pics or video next time I'm at the range. I'm guessing the gun you were shooting in the top pic didn't have a muzzle brake (or only had a slant brake). Some muzzle brakes make a big difference in recoil (the slot brake was a very noticeable upgrade from a muzzle nut in terms of recoil suppression) so the gun recoils similar to an AR with a standard A2 brake (ie, not much at all). It's not just this or just that part that makes a gun work well for the person shooting it, it's a combination of features. The changes I made to my draco were made because I saw a shortcoming in the design as it came to me, and I thought about it and did what worked for me after I shot it stock a few mags. I slimmed the handguard down a lot, and made a much more positive hand stop at the forward end to prevent my hand sliding off and getting shot or burned during rapid fire. I installed a more comfortable grip for better control. I added the sling to help with weapon handling, stability and retention (since I can't add a stock legally without $200 and wait time), and I added the muzzle brake for a louder muzzle blast (what can I say, I'm a jerk!), recoil suppression, and a proper fireball. I like my gun, and what I've done to it. I do plan to SBR it in the future (I like the red jacket billet stock), but can't do it for several reasons right now.

[Dave_M]

I've got 18 tats, but they're not as large or as IN YOUR FACE as Dave_M's 

I have no idea how many tat's I have. When people ask I tell them, "I only have one--I'm just not done with it yet" 

I like the photos you provided. I'll see about getting some pics or video next time I'm at the range. I'm guessing the gun you were shooting in the top pic didn't have a muzzle brake (or only had a slant brake). Some muzzle brakes make a big difference in recoil (the slot brake was a very noticeable upgrade from a muzzle nut in terms of recoil suppression) so the gun recoils similar to an AR with a standard A2 brake (ie, not much at all).

Travis Haley did a similar video about muzzle devices. Check it out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUbxO3jkJxc