Questions about Final Battle Scene of Tears of the Sun.

[EJR914]

FINAL BATTLE SCENE -Tears of the Sun (2004)

Could some of you military guys explain to me exactly what some of these tactics are in this battle scene from Tears of the Sun.  I own the movie, and have watched it many times before.

What exactly are those tactics called at the very beginning?  What is the reasoning behind them?  Looking like a larger force than you actually are?  Playing visual and hiding games with the enemy?  Is this something just used for small teams when against a much larger and less skilled opponent?  Should this be used against a smaller and equally or less skilled enemy as well?

Also, what is it called when they withdrawal and tap each other as they go, covering?  Is there a name for it?  I understand the reasoning for covering, but is there even more reasoning behind this other than just covering and covering fire?  Should this be used only when fighting a larger enemy, or should this also be used against smaller or equally sized enemies?

I just want a very tactical breakdown of this situation and the tactics used in it.  What are the names of the actions taken?  What is the reasoning behind them?  When should you use them?  Should you use them against smaller more equal enemies as well? 

Just give me all the knowledge that you have about what is seen by the Americans in this movie.

Thank you so much, I really appreciate the help.

Also, notice at 8:30 Bruce Willis sees his chance to get a nice longer firm grip on the supple ass.   

[WhiskeyJack]

A couple of quick ones.
The maneuver with the shoulder tap is known as a peel.
The idea is to move out of the kill box while maintaining fire superiority. it also does make it look like you are being reinforced. making you appear bigger than u really are. The peel is also a maneuver used to cover a larger withdrawl Its has many uses in a running battle but must be rehearsed and you people must be disciplined to make it work. There are 3 types of peel i can think of right now.

When their point man got shot and then they got ambushed. They performed (bounding over-watch) movement to contact A close ambush takes place within 150 meters if memory serves. In a close ambush if you try to break contact and un-ass the AO your most likely going to get shot in the back. You have to assault through it. They used bounding over-watch with 3 to 5 second rushes(one team lays a base of fire the other team moves and vice versa). When they hit the ground they did a combat roll as to not be in the tall grass where the ambushers saw them drop. And wash rinse repeat until you get into grenade range. Boom goes the dynamite and you rush the position and hammed pair the bodies in the fighting positions. A break contact is very similar but you are going in the opposite direction.

Whats important to notice about either of those techniques is the base of fire, good communication and the disciplined movements of the team. the rest of the retreat was bounding-overwatch move a few meter turn and shoot while your buddies make the next bound. Get yourself a small unit tactics book to really start studying these maneuvers. And remember they are simple in nature but you need to drill them continually until they become muscle memory. Practice practice practice. I don't know if that's as in depth a break down as you were looking for but these aren't really complex things. Its when you add gunfire and explosions and dying people to the equation that they become more challenging.

[leadpersuasion]

Good breakdown, Whiskey! Also, here is some good downloadable reading material. The Ranger Handbook is a good one to check out. Just scroll down to find what you want.

http://www.stevespages.com/page7c.htm

[WhiskeyJack]

Im with lead on that one. the ranger handbook is a must have for the person looking to learn small unit tactics.

[EJR914]

A couple of quick ones.
The maneuver with the shoulder tap is known as a peel.
The idea is to move out of the kill box while maintaining fire superiority. it also does make it look like you are being reinforced. making you appear bigger than u really are. The peel is also a maneuver used to cover a larger withdrawl Its has many uses in a running battle but must be rehearsed and you people must be disciplined to make it work. There are 3 types of peel i can think of right now.

When their point man got shot and then they got ambushed. They performed (bounding over-watch) movement to contact A close ambush takes place within 150 meters if memory serves. In a close ambush if you try to break contact and un-ass the AO your most likely going to get shot in the back. You have to assault through it. They used bounding over-watch with 3 to 5 second rushes(one team lays a base of fire the other team moves and vice versa). When they hit the ground they did a combat roll as to not be in the tall grass where the ambushers saw them drop. And wash rinse repeat until you get into grenade range. Boom goes the dynamite and you rush the position and hammed pair the bodies in the fighting positions. A break contact is very similar but you are going in the opposite direction.

Whats important to notice about either of those techniques is the base of fire, good communication and the disciplined movements of the team. the rest of the retreat was bounding-overwatch move a few meter turn and shoot while your buddies make the next bound. Get yourself a small unit tactics book to really start studying these maneuvers. And remember they are simple in nature but you need to drill them continually until they become muscle memory. Practice practice practice. I don't know if that's as in depth a break down as you were looking for but these aren't really complex things. Its when you add gunfire and explosions and dying people to the equation that they become more challenging.

Fascinating, Whiskey.  Thank you for the excellent break down, you did a great job of answering my questions.

I apologize if I missed it in your other post, Whiskey, but have you explained the three types of peels before?  If you have can you point me in the right direction?  If not, would you mind listing them, and describing when you would use each one and why?  The why being the logic and reasoning behind each one.

When they were doing the bounding overwatches, were they shoulder rolling to the front or to the right or left?  It was really hard to tell. 

Also, are there different types of bounding overwatches?  That's incredible that you have to use violence of action and fire superiority to shoot through an ambush.

Yeah, it seems so simple to do these things, but then you have to remember that lead is flying both ways, your people are getting hit and going down, and you might as well be next.  The discipline that it takes to just shoot, move, and even for short times, sit there and NOT move are incredible. 

These are things I plan on practicing and teaching others if we ever got to a point of having small teams and either defending the AO, or actually fighting through an ambush while you're out on a recon or whatever type mission.

Basically how to get out of a bad situation when you're smaller and have less people and less firepower.

I'll definitely look into getting a book, but for now you're doing a great job explaining things in a way that I can understand.

I just find this stuff incredibly fascinating. 

[EJR914]

Good breakdown, Whiskey! Also, here is some good downloadable reading material. The Ranger Handbook is a good one to check out. Just scroll down to find what you want.

http://www.stevespages.com/page7c.htm

Whoa!  That's a ton of information there.  That's getting bookmarked, saved, and printed!  Thanks man!   

Damn, that Ranger Handbook is awesome man!   [URL=http://www.smileyvault.co

[APX808]

That's incredible that you have to use violence of action and fire superiority to shoot through an ambush.

You should check the book "The Last Hundred Yards: The NCO's Contribution to Warfare" by H.J. Poole

In it the author talks about basic drills and how they are only guidelines and that US army doctrine bases their drills on fire superiority, so they not always are the best solution to your problems.
I haven't finished the book yet, but I truly recommend it to everyone.

http://www.amazon.com/Last-Hundred-Yards-Contribution-Warfare/dp/0963869523

[WhiskeyJack]

To answer your question ERJ no i haven't gotten into actual maneuvers in depth, due in part to the excellent books out there. Frankly what i have covered in my posts are modified versions taken from military training and Manuel's. I tweak em just a bit due to the fact that we are not, or no longer military and one of the key elements to military training is mission completion. Where we as preppers look at overall survival as the goal. The literature like the ranger hand book will do a far better job of explaining the maneuvers than i will. just remember your goals and the books goals are different so you should look at what information you need to change for your use in SHTF.


And as far as the Peel goes. the second peel is almost the same as what you saw in the film but its done on a company or battalion level. Don't bother with it for right now its not small unit tactics and if you find yourself getting into this level of organization. you'll prolly have some military types that can teach it.

Third is the Australian or path peel. Its used when you ability to maneuver is hampered by terrain. it can also be used in hallways, buildings and canyon or canalized areas where you cant get on-line with a fire team.
The overview would be your team takes whatever cover is available on either side of your path of travel
The first 2 or 3 fire towards the enemy and on a command the point man runs balls out down the center of the corridor your team has created or is in. As he passes the next man in line, that man takes up the base of fire. once the point man reaches the rear he calls SET and the new point man does the same until the team has extricated itself.
This teqnuiqe changes a little if your being engaged from a elevated position. the entire team returns fire and you move 1 or 2 men out at the same time as they make sure to stay below their buddies muzzels. 

And as far as the roll when bounding its the kind of thing that's dictated by the team. Ive had had TLs who wanted a left roll And i preferred to alternate the roll starting left right left right, when i got my own team. the idea is to roll out of the path of any rounds that might be fired into the spot you just dropped into. And you can also use the roll to put more distance between your fire teams forcing the ambushers to traverse more area to engage the moving targets just have the right side roll right and the left side roll left.
 and as for the 3 to 5 second rush. it is designed around the amount of time it takes the average TRAINED shooter to notice you, aim at you and fire. We used to be trained when you rush say in your head( I'm up...He sees me...I'm down) and drop on the down. I gotta say the Ranger handbook will do a better job than I of covering the subjects. Just remember you may want to really analyze them to find what you need for your situations. The books are going to put mission first. your mission is going to be survival. so take what you need bro. I hope it helps

[WhiskeyJack]

Oh yeah bounding!!!
 Bounding is pretty much the same in any situation. what changes are the numbers you add to the manuver. And who bounds when. I would deffinitly suggest you study this one becuse its the basis of the fire and manuver concept. this is used in attacks and retreats and if you get drunk enough Golf (Story for another time).   [URL=http://www.smileyvault.co

[rah45]

Loving this thread, guys. Keep it coming!

[Reaver]

Standard hand grenade throwing range is 35 meters.

Anything within 35 meters is a near ambush. Any thing past that is a far ambush.

I concur Keep it coming you guys are pretty much spot on with Infantry small unit tactics.

[leadpersuasion]

Hiberniason on youtube has recommended Small Unit Tactics by Larson and Wade. http://www.amazon.com/Small-Unit-Tactics-Larsen-Wade/dp/0974248665/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1320443769&sr=8-1-fkmr0

Has anybody read this? Its on my to-buy list. Link to his video.

Security Operations

[WhiskeyJack]

Standard hand grenade throwing range is 35 meters.

Anything within 35 meters is a near ambush. Any thing past that is a far ambush.

I concur Keep it coming you guys are pretty much spot on with Infantry small unit tactics.

35 m! really? im not doubting you bro. i know your alot more recent in your training and application than I but outside 35m is far ambush? Damn that seems really close Shit you could prolly shoot me in the back of the head with a wrist rocket at 40m. Maybe its been changed since my time. Well ty for the update.

[APX808]

Hiberniason on youtube has recommended Small Unit Tactics by Larson and Wade. http://www.amazon.com/Small-Unit-Tactics-Larsen-Wade/dp/0974248665/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1320443769&sr=8-1-fkmr0

Has anybody read this? Its on my to-buy list. Link to his video.
Security Operations

I saw excellent reviews about that book.
I always wanted to read it but never could get my hands on a copy, but in this page you can access the TOC and samples from each chapter,

http://www.thelightningpress.com/smartbooks/small-unit-tactics.htm

[EJR914]

To answer your question ERJ no i haven't gotten into actual maneuvers in depth, due in part to the excellent books out there. Frankly what i have covered in my posts are modified versions taken from military training and Manuel's. I tweak em just a bit due to the fact that we are not, or no longer military and one of the key elements to military training is mission completion. Where we as preppers look at overall survival as the goal. The literature like the ranger hand book will do a far better job of explaining the maneuvers than i will. just remember your goals and the books goals are different so you should look at what information you need to change for your use in SHTF.


And as far as the Peel goes. the second peel is almost the same as what you saw in the film but its done on a company or battalion level. Don't bother with it for right now its not small unit tactics and if you find yourself getting into this level of organization. you'll prolly have some military types that can teach it.

Third is the Australian or path peel. Its used when you ability to maneuver is hampered by terrain. it can also be used in hallways, buildings and canyon or canalized areas where you cant get on-line with a fire team.
The overview would be your team takes whatever cover is available on either side of your path of travel
The first 2 or 3 fire towards the enemy and on a command the point man runs balls out down the center of the corridor your team has created or is in. As he passes the next man in line, that man takes up the base of fire. once the point man reaches the rear he calls SET and the new point man does the same until the team has extricated itself.
This teqnuiqe changes a little if your being engaged from a elevated position. the entire team returns fire and you move 1 or 2 men out at the same time as they make sure to stay below their buddies muzzels. 

And as far as the roll when bounding its the kind of thing that's dictated by the team. Ive had had TLs who wanted a left roll And i preferred to alternate the roll starting left right left right, when i got my own team. the idea is to roll out of the path of any rounds that might be fired into the spot you just dropped into. And you can also use the roll to put more distance between your fire teams forcing the ambushers to traverse more area to engage the moving targets just have the right side roll right and the left side roll left.
 and as for the 3 to 5 second rush. it is designed around the amount of time it takes the average TRAINED shooter to notice you, aim at you and fire. We used to be trained when you rush say in your head( I'm up...He sees me...I'm down) and drop on the down. I gotta say the Ranger handbook will do a better job than I of covering the subjects. Just remember you may want to really analyze them to find what you need for your situations. The books are going to put mission first. your mission is going to be survival. so take what you need bro. I hope it helps

You're so awesome, bro, literally.  Great information.  Thanks again.

Also, thanks to reaver for the follow ups on a few questions.  This is really helping me wrap my head around this stuff.

Also, thank you guys for all the book info, I'm checking them all out.

[EJR914]

Here is another badass part of the movie.  It shows not just individual skill, but also the collective skill of the group, to communicate efficiently and properly to do what needed to be done to remain tactically sound.

Shows the need for radios and comms as well.  That way you can coordinate taking out hostiles.  Also, coordinated shots without anything even being said as well.  They've practiced so well as a team that they know the move of the next guy before he makes it and is backing him up after he takes his shots.  Also hand signals are used as well.  You need to have them, and no what they mean. 

Notice the order that they are taking out hostiles.  Making sure that nobody sees the guy go down, so that they can return fire on your position, if they can find it, after all, you're suppressed. 

This is the number one reason to get silenced weapons now, or tactically requisition them after SHTF, plus then you won't have to worry about any tax stamps or BS like that.  Just pick them off from a gun store, if you can find one not raped, or a soldier, or another tactically minded civilian. 

Makes me want to get silencers for my primary and secondary. 

You think this couldn't happen here?  You're kidding yourself.  When SHTF, there will be gangs out doing this to men and women in neighborhoods, sort of like our villages or tribes. 

So yep, you may just be walking with your small unit, and come up on men and women being executed, and women being outright raped, and other brutal things going on, and what do you do?  Do you do the smart thing and go around it?  Do assess the situation, realize you can silently take them all out with your suppressors, how about if its your family and friends down there getting raped and executed?  Maybe even tortured?  You know you can take them out silently and skillfully.  You are also going to have to keep your wits about you when you see horrific things, and you're going to have to make sure your emotions don't hinder you and make you lose your edge. 

What do you do?

Tears of the Sun - Clearing the Village HD

So anyway, please watch this BADASS sequence of the movie.

Also, notice how they watch their corners, they use the buildings for cover until they strike. 

Also, notice how Bruce Willis got cut by the machete, and he barely flinched.  As the leader, just like any good NCO, you have to be stoic through it all, like stone, no emotion, not even when you're hit or hurt.  You have to remain in charge and stoic no matter what.  Its a sign of any NCO who is worth a crap.

Any breakdown or explanation you military guys want to give about the scene?  Is this similar to what you would have to do in reality, or is it just made up Hollywood bullcrap?  If you were forced to do this?  Would you do it this exact way, or would you change some things about it?  What would you change?

Did you see any of them mess up?  If so what did they do?  I know Bruce didn't watch his six, and thank goodness the other guy was, or Bruce may have been killed by a machete.  It was a mistake, but he didn't cry about the wound or the mess up, he just pushed on, being stoic about it.

No detail is too small of their actions, please describe to us movement, target acquisition, recon, comms, hand signals, silenced weapons, anything that you want to cover in your breakdown.  Like I said, no detail is too small to mention. 

I'd love to one day even get close to the skill that these guys presented in this scene, and I would also love to feel that I have the skills to even attempt anything like this, especially if it was my wife or my family that this was happening to, even maybe my good buddy and his family. 

So whiskeyjack and others, take your best stab at it, and don't forget to talk about tactics, reason and logic behind them, ect.

Man, I love this scene, just completely badass man.

[WhiskeyJack]

I think Antione Fuqua did an amazing job on this film as well bro. And yes, the potential for shit like this to happen is why i prep.
This scene is a little difficult to critique though. the final scene is a little more panoramic and offers a better view of the larger situation. while this scene goes more for the actors expresions upon seeing this horrific scene. Its difficult to give a full break down without a actual layout of the Village and the routes they chose to run. As far as a tactical break down, some of what i saw was. (and please keep in mind this is a movie not a training video, So dont go to crazy fragging me on this one lol)

Two separate fire teams with two DM over-watch.
The teams moved to different sides of the village and approached as close as possible before making hostil contact unless they were assured of a quick and silent kill that would not alert the main force.
they worked from the outside to the interior.
The entire thing hinged upon element of suprise. The village was not properly secured and what security they did have was distracted and stupid. The approach taken in this scenario would most likely have failed if attempted against a disciplined group. But that's why we have the threat assessment.
One thing i would like to add, if you noticed they fired the M-14 unsuppressed.
This is something i hope every one noticed.
There were random shots fired all throughout the village from AK-47 the M-14 has a similar report(not exact) when fired. where as the M-4 report would have been far too different from what the bad guys had been hearing all day.
We cant all get super high speed suppressors, but don't forget that if you can controll your rate of fire and get one shot one kill. You can hide your presence by blending into the background noise with a similar system. So if you and your group someday comes across some horrific scene such as the one depicted here. listen to the gunshots. Are they a single platform? Or are they mixed. Whats the rates of fire? And can you mimic and match what you hear. Think of it as auditory camouflage. You don't necessarily need a suppressor if you can blend right in. Just a thought. And Bruce is always badass. Yippee Kaye MuthaFucka [URL=http://www.smileyvault.co

[Currahee]

Aussie Peelback

[Reaver]

Standard hand grenade throwing range is 35 meters.

Anything within 35 meters is a near ambush. Any thing past that is a far ambush.

I concur Keep it coming you guys are pretty much spot on with Infantry small unit tactics.

35 m! really? im not doubting you bro. i know your alot more recent in your training and application than I but outside 35m is far ambush? Damn that seems really close Shit you could prolly shoot me in the back of the head with a wrist rocket at 40m. Maybe its been changed since my time. Well ty for the update.

Well from the Infantry manual I  Had    Anything outside of Frag Range was considered a Far Ambush, simply because it was out of Frag range.
had been a while. Over 3 years.

[WhiskeyJack]

I hear ya RVR. Im 9 years out. I just seem to remember having to close to grenade range in a close ambush. Well its acedemic cuz we dont have grenades now do we.  Just gonna have to modify all that good training for our individule situations.

[thatGuy]

Fucking epic thread guys.. epic.

[Ghost]

Aussie Peelback

CFLRS Farnham, eh? I'll be there next year lol.

But yes, great film, and great way to talk tactics and movement. Good stuff gents.

[EJR914]

I think Antione Fuqua did an amazing job on this film as well bro. And yes, the potential for shit like this to happen is why i prep.
This scene is a little difficult to critique though. the final scene is a little more panoramic and offers a better view of the larger situation. while this scene goes more for the actors expresions upon seeing this horrific scene. Its difficult to give a full break down without a actual layout of the Village and the routes they chose to run. As far as a tactical break down, some of what i saw was. (and please keep in mind this is a movie not a training video, So dont go to crazy fragging me on this one lol)

Two separate fire teams with two DM over-watch.
The teams moved to different sides of the village and approached as close as possible before making hostil contact unless they were assured of a quick and silent kill that would not alert the main force.
they worked from the outside to the interior.
The entire thing hinged upon element of suprise. The village was not properly secured and what security they did have was distracted and stupid. The approach taken in this scenario would most likely have failed if attempted against a disciplined group. But that's why we have the threat assessment.
One thing i would like to add, if you noticed they fired the M-14 unsuppressed.
This is something i hope every one noticed.
There were random shots fired all throughout the village from AK-47 the M-14 has a similar report(not exact) when fired. where as the M-4 report would have been far too different from what the bad guys had been hearing all day.
We cant all get super high speed suppressors, but don't forget that if you can controll your rate of fire and get one shot one kill. You can hide your presence by blending into the background noise with a similar system. So if you and your group someday comes across some horrific scene such as the one depicted here. listen to the gunshots. Are they a single platform? Or are they mixed. Whats the rates of fire? And can you mimic and match what you hear. Think of it as auditory camouflage. You don't necessarily need a suppressor if you can blend right in. Just a thought. And Bruce is always badass. Yippee Kaye MuthaFucka

I'm so not worthy, Whiskey Jack.  Awesome breakdown of the tactics being used here.  Also, great advice as well.  I'm so not worthy man!   [URL=http://www.smileyvault.co

[EJR914]

Aussie Peelback

Interesting, in the movie, they are all firing, in this one, basically one soldier is at a time.

Does anyone know the exact reasoning in doing one or the other?

[EJR914]

I hear ya RVR. Im 9 years out. I just seem to remember having to close to grenade range in a close ambush. Well its acedemic cuz we dont have grenades now do we.  Just gonna have to modify all that good training for our individule situations.

TacReq?