Author Topic: question for you bolt-gun guys  (Read 1814 times)

Offline NOLA556

  • Hardcore Prepper
  • ******
  • Posts: 2048
  • Karma: +0/-0
question for you bolt-gun guys
« on: April 04, 2012, 03:21:16 PM »
ok so I've read that you should never load your bolt gun through the floorplate (internal mag)

but when you load through the breech like you're supposed to, there's no way to close the bolt without chambering a round.
I've found that I can load my Rem700 through the floorplate with the bolt closed and it doesn't effect function at all. I've done this at the range several times just to make sure the rounds are seated properly and make sure the bolt cycles them properly and all is well. so why exactly are you not supposed to do that?

the only thing you have to do is make sure to look at the follower and check which side of the double-stack the first round needs to be on.

my purpose for even wanting to do this is because I keep my guns loaded but not chambered. I really don't like to keep my bolt guns "hot" with the safety on. doing it this way allows me to get all 5 rds without needing to chamber one.

is there anything wrong with this?
Rome is burning, and Obama is playing the fiddle - GAP

Offline v0dka

  • Firefigher EMT-P
  • Senior Prepper
  • ****
  • Posts: 429
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • flecktastic!!
Re: question for you bolt-gun guys
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2012, 04:28:52 PM »


I don't know the floor plate spring life on your rifle, but if you keep it loaded/compressed all the time, it would be wise to also have a spare spring/floor plate for replacement.  Springs loose tension when compressed constantly, thus the same reason to not leave magazines loaded ALL the time, but simply rotating them every 4-6 months will likely prolong their useful life.

Regards,

Walker
With that logic i bet you have spent thousands on replacing your car/truck suspension springs.
sic luceat lux

Offline NOLA556

  • Hardcore Prepper
  • ******
  • Posts: 2048
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: question for you bolt-gun guys
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2012, 04:40:39 PM »
IF you can get the floor plate spring properly aligned along with the cartridges, I guess you can do it that way, but I never have even tried.  There really is no good reason I can think of.

Try this... load from the top, pressing each cartridge in evenly.  After you load the last cartridge, simply use your thumb to press down on the cartridge slightly and ride the bolt over over the cartridge base, then simply close the action.  Has worked for me in any bolt gun I have ever owned.

I don't know the floor plate spring life on your rifle, but if you keep it loaded/compressed all the time, it would be wise to also have a spare spring/floor plate for replacement.  Springs loose tension when compressed constantly, thus the same reason to not leave magazines loaded ALL the time, but simply rotating them every 4-6 months will likely prolong their useful life.

Regards,

Walker

that's a debate that's been had ad nauseum. the general consensus seems to be that springs lose their effectiveness from being compressed and de-compressed over and over, not from being compressed over a long period. in other words the more you use a mag, the weaker the spring will get, but if you take a brand new mag and load it, and leave it there for an extended period, the spring tension should theoretically remain the same.
Rome is burning, and Obama is playing the fiddle - GAP

Offline Reaver

  • Hardcore Prepper
  • ******
  • Posts: 3256
  • Karma: +3/-0
  • I just want it to start already
    • ASTINvlogs
Re: question for you bolt-gun guys
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2012, 04:43:43 PM »
The only bolt gun I got is a Spanish Mauser FR8
I top the mag off ( 5 ) 7.62x51 then I depress the magazine a little bit further with my thumb. Then I slide the bolt closed. Once the bolt is in the chamber but not locked into place I depress the trigger and drop the bolt. This decocks the firearm. So I have a completely Safe firearm with a loaded magazine. Work the bolt and I'm Good to go.
Any station this is net, any station this is net. Monster One Alpha Radio check over.

Offline NOLA556

  • Hardcore Prepper
  • ******
  • Posts: 2048
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: question for you bolt-gun guys
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2012, 04:51:58 PM »
The only bolt gun I got is a Spanish Mauser FR8
I top the mag off ( 5 ) 7.62x51 then I depress the magazine a little bit further with my thumb. Then I slide the bolt closed. Once the bolt is in the chamber but not locked into place I depress the trigger and drop the bolt. This decocks the firearm. So I have a completely Safe firearm with a loaded magazine. Work the bolt and I'm Good to go.

i just tried this with the Mosin and it wouldn't work. impossible to push the 5th round deep enough to clear the bolt. it works with the Rem700 though.
Rome is burning, and Obama is playing the fiddle - GAP

Offline Reaver

  • Hardcore Prepper
  • ******
  • Posts: 3256
  • Karma: +3/-0
  • I just want it to start already
    • ASTINvlogs
Re: question for you bolt-gun guys
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2012, 05:04:51 PM »
Problem solved in one.

It probably doesn't work in the Mosin Because of the rimmed cartridge.
Any station this is net, any station this is net. Monster One Alpha Radio check over.

1000meterstare

  • Guest
Re: question for you bolt-gun guys
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2012, 05:32:29 PM »
I don't load my Mosin until I'm ready to fire it anyway.  My Ak I can leave a loaded mag in with none in the chamber.  Yeah, bolt guns are a different animal; they pretty much force you to put one in the chamber.

Offline NOLA556

  • Hardcore Prepper
  • ******
  • Posts: 2048
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: question for you bolt-gun guys
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2012, 06:56:59 PM »
that's a debate that's been had ad nauseum. the general consensus seems to be that springs lose their effectiveness from being compressed and de-compressed over and over, not from being compressed over a long period. in other words the more you use a mag, the weaker the spring will get, but if you take a brand new mag and load it, and leave it there for an extended period, the spring tension should theoretically remain the same.


You are correct, it has been an ongoing nauseating debate.  One in which the particular spring and application will determine the effect of long term compression/over compression.  Probably of little concern in modern magazines as the "memory" even after being compressed for long periods will continue to provide adequate function.  Unsure if this has been tested in bolt gun floor plate springs... any idea?

http://mcb-homis.com/magspring/index.htm

Regards,

Walker


well you bring up a damn good point. most of the debate revolves around external magazine springs. I can't say I've heard much talk about floorplate springs. it's a completely different kind of spring all together. I really have no idea if the same rule applies.
Rome is burning, and Obama is playing the fiddle - GAP

Offline Kentactic

  • Hardcore Prepper
  • ******
  • Posts: 2942
  • Karma: +12/-0
Re: question for you bolt-gun guys
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2012, 07:25:51 PM »
The only bolt gun I got is a Spanish Mauser FR8
I top the mag off ( 5 ) 7.62x51 then I depress the magazine a little bit further with my thumb. Then I slide the bolt closed. Once the bolt is in the chamber but not locked into place I depress the trigger and drop the bolt. This decocks the firearm. So I have a completely Safe firearm with a loaded magazine. Work the bolt and I'm Good to go.

i just tried this with the Mosin and it wouldn't work. impossible to push the 5th round deep enough to clear the bolt. it works with the Rem700 though.

if your able to load 5 from the floor plate in the mosin with the bolt closed then you also can press the 5 rounds down with your thumb to get the bolt closed...unless your using extreme force to close the floorplate.

Simplicity Is Ideal...

Offline Kentactic

  • Hardcore Prepper
  • ******
  • Posts: 2942
  • Karma: +12/-0
Re: question for you bolt-gun guys
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2012, 07:31:04 PM »
I will say though i dont see much need to keep a bolt gun loaded with ammo ...perhaps if it has a detachable magazine modification then it wouldnt hurt to have mags loaded but a bolt guns not really an "oh shit its on like donkey kong" type gun...but if you do need it ready to fire fast they load up pretty quick...

Bolt Action Reloads


Also as far as spring strength in a bolt action goes. thats a factory spring and follower in my rem 700 thats still able to reliably push up 7 rounds instead of the normal 4. so even way beyond its normal reach its got enough power to push up rounds.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 07:34:26 PM by Kentactic »
Simplicity Is Ideal...

Offline Reaver

  • Hardcore Prepper
  • ******
  • Posts: 3256
  • Karma: +3/-0
  • I just want it to start already
    • ASTINvlogs
Re: question for you bolt-gun guys
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2012, 09:03:18 PM »
Quote
I will say though i dont see much need to keep a bolt gun loaded with ammo ...perhaps if it has a detachable magazine modification then it wouldnt hurt to have mags loaded but a bolt guns not really an "oh shit its on like donkey kong" type gun...but if you do need it ready to fire fast they load up pretty quick... 

Matter of opinion and POU, IMO My little FR8 isn't a Remington 700 with a scope on it. Or an M95
Its a little, 18" barreled 36" overall battle rifle. If I knew there was a bear coming through my back door right now and I couldn't get my 870. That FR8 is my next choice. Its light, its handy & accurate, its a powerhouse.

Any station this is net, any station this is net. Monster One Alpha Radio check over.

Offline NOLA556

  • Hardcore Prepper
  • ******
  • Posts: 2048
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: question for you bolt-gun guys
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2012, 09:39:44 PM »
I will say though i dont see much need to keep a bolt gun loaded with ammo ...perhaps if it has a detachable magazine modification then it wouldnt hurt to have mags loaded but a bolt guns not really an "oh shit its on like donkey kong" type gun...but if you do need it ready to fire fast they load up pretty quick...



i see you're point but understand that I'm not exactly talking about NECESSITY here. I just like the idea of having all my long guns at the ready regardless which one I grab, but still keeping them safe enough where a simple pull of the trigger won't result in an ND. of course I dont NEED to have my bolt guns loaded, but I want them loaded.

here's a good example.

last weekend my in-laws were in town and they stayed over for a couple nights. on top of that, my lady's uncle was with them (us) as well.
the way I see it, if shit just happened to go down while they were here, that's me, the lady, her dad, her uncle, and her mom. all able-bodied and able to shoot if needed. that's 5 possible gunmen all at once. now I have 5 long guns capable of combat. (two of them are bolt guns). I want them all loaded but "safe" in the event that they need to be quickly passed out.

so like I said, not necessity, but trying to maximize my efficiency if shit kicks off without warning.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 09:45:08 PM by NOLA556 »
Rome is burning, and Obama is playing the fiddle - GAP

Offline Kentactic

  • Hardcore Prepper
  • ******
  • Posts: 2942
  • Karma: +12/-0
Re: question for you bolt-gun guys
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2012, 09:59:59 PM »
I will say though i dont see much need to keep a bolt gun loaded with ammo ...perhaps if it has a detachable magazine modification then it wouldnt hurt to have mags loaded but a bolt guns not really an "oh shit its on like donkey kong" type gun...but if you do need it ready to fire fast they load up pretty quick...



i see you're point but understand that I'm not exactly talking about NECESSITY here. I just like the idea of having all my long guns at the ready regardless which one I grab, but still keeping them safe enough where a simple pull of the trigger won't result in an ND. of course I dont NEED to have my bolt guns loaded, but I want them loaded.

here's a good example.

last weekend my in-laws were in town and they stayed over for a couple nights. on top of that, my lady's uncle was with them (us) as well.
the way I see it, if shit just happened to go down while they were here, that's me, the lady, her dad, her uncle, and her mom. all able-bodied and able to shoot if needed. that's 5 possible gunmen all at once. now I have 5 long guns capable of combat. (two of them are bolt guns). I want them all loaded but "safe" in the event that they need to be quickly passed out.

so like I said, not necessity, but trying to maximize my efficiency if shit kicks off without warning.

I understand why youd want the guns ready to go in the event that it is is needed but in what scenario would that ever happen?
Simplicity Is Ideal...

Offline special-k

  • Peasant Extraordinaire
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2075
  • Karma: +9/-0
Re: question for you bolt-gun guys
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2012, 10:15:08 PM »
I understand why youd want the guns ready to go in the event that it is is needed but in what scenario would that ever happen?

Uh......Zombies......Obviously. [img]http://www.arrse.co.uk/at
"It wouldn't do any good.  I've had the shit beat out of me a lot of times.  I just replenish with more shit."  - Billy McBride

Offline v0dka

  • Firefigher EMT-P
  • Senior Prepper
  • ****
  • Posts: 429
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • flecktastic!!
Re: question for you bolt-gun guys
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2012, 11:35:20 PM »
Walker,
That test has a number of things wrong with it.

1. the spring is compressed wrong.
any spring that is compressed out of its intended form will loose its power. This is where the myth that you can't leave mags loaded comes form. Improper reassembly or loose tolerances caused springs to set wrong resulting in the common myth.

2. The way he compressed the uncompressed spring to load "compressions" into it damaged the spring. Again he tested it out of it's intended use.

3. no control springs? as unscientific as the test was he should of provided measurements of the spring before the compressions, and also a spring that has normal use on it.
But that doesn't matter since he messed the experiment up completely to begin with.
sic luceat lux

Offline Kentactic

  • Hardcore Prepper
  • ******
  • Posts: 2942
  • Karma: +12/-0
Re: question for you bolt-gun guys
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2012, 08:40:49 PM »
The experiment would be way easier to do right. just load one brand new mag full of ammo and leave it for how ever long. the next brand new mag load and unload how ever many times... then test the difference. i have two brasnd new Glock mags i could do the test with if i so choose...
Simplicity Is Ideal...

Offline NOLA556

  • Hardcore Prepper
  • ******
  • Posts: 2048
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: question for you bolt-gun guys
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2012, 08:59:16 PM »
The experiment would be way easier to do right. just load one brand new mag full of ammo and leave it for how ever long. the next brand new mag load and unload how ever many times... then test the difference. i have two brasnd new Glock mags i could do the test with if i so choose...

i've left glock mags loaded for months and didn't see any difference in performance. but it wasn't a "test" and I also didn't document it.
Rome is burning, and Obama is playing the fiddle - GAP

Offline Kentactic

  • Hardcore Prepper
  • ******
  • Posts: 2942
  • Karma: +12/-0
Re: question for you bolt-gun guys
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2012, 06:35:52 PM »
The experiment would be way easier to do right. just load one brand new mag full of ammo and leave it for how ever long. the next brand new mag load and unload how ever many times... then test the difference. i have two brasnd new Glock mags i could do the test with if i so choose...

i've left glock mags loaded for months and didn't see any difference in performance. but it wasn't a "test" and I also didn't document it.

me too... the idea is to find out wether cycling the spring wears it out or if just leaving it fully compressed does the same or more damage.
Simplicity Is Ideal...

doppleganger

  • Guest
Re: question for you bolt-gun guys
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2012, 06:10:53 PM »
This is the straight dope on gun springs. Spring steel takes a set. Meaning that the spring steel is already tempered before the spring is folded into whichever configuration is needed for a particular function, and that is the key. Now, if you load a magazine to full capacity and leave it,you ar changing the form of the spring through constant pressure over time. Add in environmental effects such as oxidization and heat and you set the spring. You can't take a spring from a magazine, stretch it open and put it back in the magazine. The stress placed on the spring from compressing and extending the spring causes weakness. At that point, you just need to replace the spring.

Now, if the gun is a Mauser, why don't you just use a stripped clip, and if it's something else, see if brownells offers a external magazine kit for it. I know they do on the Remington 700's.

The method walker told you to use for closing the bolt on a full magazine is the correct way. Mausers use 4 in the magazine.

Now a caveat. If you were to load a magazine a 2/3 full level, you can get away with it for years. I did an experiment with Ak magazines and 1911 magazines several years ago. The springs were still good 2.5 years after loading when using 20 on 30's for the Ak and 4 in 7's on the 1911. That's kind of a cheaters way of keeping magazines loaded without ruining your springs.

Also, to whoever posted about the truck springs, remember that they are being used at factory tolerances when there is no load on them, but leave your truck with a bed full of concrete for a year, then tell me if you're replacing springs or not.

 springs,

Offline Kentactic

  • Hardcore Prepper
  • ******
  • Posts: 2942
  • Karma: +12/-0
Re: question for you bolt-gun guys
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2012, 10:52:03 PM »
Quote
Also, to whoever posted about the truck springs, remember that they are being used at factory tolerances when there is no load on them, but leave your truck with a bed full of concrete for a year, then tell me if you're replacing springs or not.

i gave the same exact example like 8 months ago on this topic lol...
Simplicity Is Ideal...

Offline v0dka

  • Firefigher EMT-P
  • Senior Prepper
  • ****
  • Posts: 429
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • flecktastic!!
Re: question for you bolt-gun guys
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2012, 12:27:30 AM »


Also, to whoever posted about the truck springs, remember that they are being used at factory tolerances when there is no load on them, but leave your truck with a bed full of concrete for a year, then tell me if you're replacing springs or not.

 springs,
Ok then explain why a fully loaded firetruck with a weight class of 21 doesn't have its springs wear out from sitting?

Or a normal chevy 2500 that's converted to a firetruck with 500 gallons of water and tools on it doesn't need new springs after 5 years of being fully loaded?

Why don't i have problems with my pmags that have been loaded for 2 years?

sic luceat lux

Offline Kentactic

  • Hardcore Prepper
  • ******
  • Posts: 2942
  • Karma: +12/-0
Re: question for you bolt-gun guys
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2012, 08:57:35 AM »


Also, to whoever posted about the truck springs, remember that they are being used at factory tolerances when there is no load on them, but leave your truck with a bed full of concrete for a year, then tell me if you're replacing springs or not.

 springs,
Ok then explain why a fully loaded firetruck with a weight class of 21 doesn't have its springs wear out from sitting?

Or a normal chevy 2500 that's converted to a firetruck with 500 gallons of water and tools on it doesn't need new springs after 5 years of being fully loaded?

Why don't i have problems with my pmags that have been loaded for 2 years?

the chevy truck dosent have to reliably slam all 500 gallons of water into a feeding ramp in a fraction of a second repeatedly in order to be consider in good working condition. im sure the springs have less tension then they use to. aslong a the bumper isnt dragging your a happy camper.
Simplicity Is Ideal...

Offline NOLA556

  • Hardcore Prepper
  • ******
  • Posts: 2048
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: question for you bolt-gun guys
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2012, 11:46:41 AM »
soo... about loading through the floorplate... lol.
Rome is burning, and Obama is playing the fiddle - GAP

Offline Kentactic

  • Hardcore Prepper
  • ******
  • Posts: 2942
  • Karma: +12/-0
Re: question for you bolt-gun guys
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2012, 11:53:29 AM »
soo... about loading through the floorplate... lol.

lol yeah.. no need bro... just load from the top. i see no way possible that loading from the floor plate allows more rounds to be held in the mag. just push the round down and close the bolt like who ever above said.
Simplicity Is Ideal...

Offline NOLA556

  • Hardcore Prepper
  • ******
  • Posts: 2048
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: question for you bolt-gun guys
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2012, 11:56:16 AM »
will do.
Rome is burning, and Obama is playing the fiddle - GAP