Author Topic: Debate on the Pros/Cons of Manual Firearm Safeties  (Read 4989 times)

Offline JohnyMac

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Re: Debate on the Pros/Cons of Manual Firearm Safeties
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2012, 10:12:52 PM »
Quote
Rah wrote in Ref to my not using the safety on my AR:
That seems an odd deviation from your norm...why?

Great question Rah. It was the way I was instructed. A friend who is a retired Army Ranger coached me to:

> Carry my AR with a fully loaded mag, with no round in the chamber, bolt locked back and
   extraction opening port closed. To load and shoot press bolt lock release, weapon ready to fire.
   I asked him why and he told me "memory retention. Do you turn your selector to safety before
   you change mags each time?" A friend of my brother who is a small arms trainer in Afghanistan
   carries his M4 the same way when he visits us at the BOL.
> At the BOL I use to store my AR with a loaded mag, round in the chamber and safety on by the
   door. We have a coyote problem and it is just quicker when one comes into the field below our
   cabin to engage the beast. I use to put my AR in the corner for the night, butt down and muzzle
   up. The Ranger coached me to store the weapon muzzle down butt up and no round in the
   chamber and set up as described above. I asked him why and he told me, "he would rather have
   a stray round go into the floor rather then through the roof" and again "memory
   retention."     
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Offline thatGuy

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Re: Debate on the Pros/Cons of Manual Firearm Safeties
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2012, 10:26:11 PM »
Johny, I believe that to be bad advice you got there buddy. Muzzle down (keeps dust out) sure but bolt locked rearward safety off? No dude. All it is going to take is a good little digger or a chest bump and next thing you know that bolt has gone home and you've gone from condition 3 to condition zero in no time.. Take your rifle without a mag in it and lock that bolt rearward. Then put on all your kit like you were going to bail out and take it for a jog. I will bet money that you drop that bolt by accident when you are running full retard.


Offline Outonowhere

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Re: Debate on the Pros/Cons of Manual Firearm Safeties
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2012, 10:27:31 PM »
Lol I've only read a small bit and to save myself the headache I'm just posting my opinion.  This is my belief no one else's so if ya don't like it good for you.

Safeties are important on any firearm.  That said I prefer the Glock style internal, and I've owned both so ya can't say I'm just loving on the Glock lol.  I rarely used the safety on the 1911 when I had it cause I just rode with the pipe clear.  I do the same basically with the Glock only it's got the internal stuff too.  I'm of the belief that more important than what safety bells and whistles a gun has is the level of training and maturity of the individual.  Of course that's not to say that even the best of us hasn't experienced a negligent discharge. 

And safeties aren't fool proof... Look at TexG.  [img]http://www.arrse.co.uk/at [url=http://yoursmiles.org/p-m
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Offline JohnyMac

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Re: Debate on the Pros/Cons of Manual Firearm Safeties
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2012, 10:44:16 PM »
Thanks for the feedback TG.  [URL=http://www.smileyvault.co

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Offline sledge

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Re: Debate on the Pros/Cons of Manual Firearm Safeties
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2012, 10:46:32 PM »
Of course that's not to say that even the best of us hasn't experienced a negligent discharge. 

I'm not the best of us, maybe just the luckiest of us.  I've never had a N/D and hope I never do.  Especially one like  TexG's.  If I ever do you can bet your ass it won't ever show up on YouTube.  I don't need that kind of fame.  LOL!



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Offline JohnyMac

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Re: Debate on the Pros/Cons of Manual Firearm Safeties
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2012, 11:01:47 PM »
I had a ND twice with the same weapon (I may have posted this on L&L). I had a really sweet 1939 manufactured 99 Savage that I took into my gun smith for him to work on the trigger creep and bring the trigget pull down to 4 pounds or so.

Well I got the rifle back and the creep was gone and the trigger pull was about 4 1/2#'s and nice & crisp. I broke several speed laws driving to the range to try her out. On or about the fourth round, when I was chambering a round the rifle fired. Thinking that maybe I was tired and accidentally touched the trigger I called it a day and went home.

Jump ahead a few weeks I found myself up at the BOL. I took out the above mentioned rifle and started to zero in the rifle at 100 yards. When on the fourth round I chambered the weapon and it went off again. I knew damn well I hadn't touched the trigger this time!

When I got home I took the rifle back to the gunsmith. According to him, he reworked "the sear" and as of today it has not happened again. The trigger creep is still gone and the "let off" is crisp but the trigger pull now is just shy of 7#'s. Let me tell you...It scared the crap out of me. I could not have lived with myself if I had accidentally hurt somebody. 
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Offline Oldannyboy37

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Re: Debate on the Pros/Cons of Manual Firearm Safeties
« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2012, 12:47:19 AM »
It depends on the gun to me. Guns like a Glock or an M&P are fine without them in most cases. If you had a modified trigger (As in a "breath on it and it goes off" trigger) I'd say the safety would be needed.
I like a safety on a 1911. The light, short trigger pull in most SAO guns would make me nervous to carry without a safety.
With DA/SA guns with a heavy DA pull I really see no need for a safety.
Safeties are good because they cater to the lowest common denominator (Us) in most situations; they help lower the chances of a stress induced accident caused by negligence *Cough not practicing and obeying the 4 commandments Cough*.
They also hinder the lowest common denominator (Us again) because under stress we can either forget to flip them off or in some cases (Some USPs and similar guns) you could accidentally decock the gun.
I think it's all about personal preference and practice......but what do I know lol?
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Offline mountainredneck2051

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Re: Debate on the Pros/Cons of Manual Firearm Safeties
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2012, 01:21:41 AM »
my initial reaction is wtf i started a thread?  :o

in my opinion, get a holster that covers the trigger and dont pull the fucking trigger, and everything else wont matter
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Offline WhiskeyJack

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Re: Debate on the Pros/Cons of Manual Firearm Safeties
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2012, 10:10:38 AM »
For my side arm i like a manual safety. Its what Ive trained with more than anything.
And i like to carry with a round chambered and safety on.
My AK however depends upon where i am. if I'm in the Field then its round chambered safety off and finger along the trigger guard and muzzle controll. If I'm in camp its round chambered safety on and slung across chest. That is due to the nature of the AKs safety lever. its not exactly the quickest or quietest safety on the market.

And JMc I'm guessing your Ranger buddy is a little older. Ive trained with the Rangerific types and got the (round chambered-thumb on selector switch- finger along the trigger guard) block of instruction. The whole muzzle down thing in the military came about with the helicopter. Must have muzzle down when the engine and rotors are right above you. and yes i would rather have a leakey floor than a leakey roof.

I'm not calling BS on your buddy at all i just think his training is a little more old school than some of ours. one of the great things about the AR platform is the ergonomics of the design. you can disengage the safety and move finger to trigger in very quick and smooth motion whilst taking proper aim. Realeasing the bolt catch makes the weapon jump unnecessarily, adding a little more time to target acquisition.

Ive been on the AK platform for a while now. So perhaps I'm off base.
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Offline JohnyMac

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Re: Debate on the Pros/Cons of Manual Firearm Safeties
« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2012, 08:00:45 PM »
Yup Whiskey he is an old guy... He is in his early 40's  [img]http://www.arrse.co.uk/at. His last tour was Iraq in '07 or '08- I forget. He did his 20 and then bailed.
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Offline Kobalt

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Re: Debate on the Pros/Cons of Manual Firearm Safeties
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2012, 08:09:57 PM »
THIS DEBATE IS STUPID AND YOU SHOULD DO WHAT WORKS FOR YOU! That is all.
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Offline Kentactic

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Re: Debate on the Pros/Cons of Manual Firearm Safeties
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2012, 08:18:01 PM »
shooting a hammer fired auto-loading pistol properly is more of a pain in the ass because you must also decock and engage the safety every time you holster. and of course disengage the safety as you draw. carrying a hammer fire pistol cocked open carried isnt a good idea, especially in brush... a twig gets in between the pin and hammer and now your gun no longer shoots... also dirt and god knows what else...so you have to decock and safety...blah blah...fuck that...

glock...draw... shoot..... holster....
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Offline Kentactic

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Re: Re: M9 good?
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2012, 08:23:17 PM »
your supposed to use the safeties on 1911's?  ???

Pretty sure.

A lot of people like to carry cocked and locked safety on.
Personally, I won't buy a handgun that has a safety.  I tend toward Glock and classic Sig Sauers.  That's my advice to anyone considering buying a M9.

That is just stupid IMO.
Even if like sledge says you don't trust the safety, its a good thing to have.
I generally don't buy a firearm with out a safety. Seen to much dumbshit happen because of lack of safety. I'll do everything I can to not have one of those situations happen again around my youngen & love.

RvR

if your "Trusting" the safety then maybe being around firearms isnt the best idea.... if you have trust that you can now point the gun where ever you want because you have a safety then thats crazy bad... just like you can forget muzzle control you can forget to engage the safety. and if your saying you still maintain proper muzzle control at all times then whats the safety for exactly? wether the guns have a safety or not the same human error is possible... in my opinion human error is a higher risk WITH a safety because its a false sense of security. kinda like all the people shooting there hunting buddies by accident with there rem700 because they TRUSTED the safety... shit breaks...the only safety should be you keeping the gun pointed in the right direction 100% of the time... feel free to sneak up and pull the trigger on my loaded firearms any time you want because they will always be pointed in a safe direction no matter what.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 08:39:02 PM by Kentactic »
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Offline JohnyMac

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Re: Debate on the Pros/Cons of Manual Firearm Safeties
« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2012, 08:25:05 PM »
I hear ya' Ken but according to Rah I am an old Geezer. Old Geezers like hammers  :))

Spirit, If you don't like this thread don't read it.  ;)

I know I am being honory this evening.  >:D
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 08:30:20 PM by JohnyMac »
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Offline Kentactic

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Re: Re: M9 good?
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2012, 08:26:43 PM »
So you don't have others roaming around your house....? Child? Wife? Mother, father? 

I prefer to keep a hot mag non in the tube safety on.
I know the Capabilities  of my family members I practice with them daily.

Not having a safety on a firearm is just stupid. ( Even if you don't use it  personally ) At least it's there for the one occasion where you might need it.

if you need a safety for a loaded gun sitting around the house due to family who may make a mistake then please lock up all fire arms in a safer location...the safety is not a child lock.
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Offline Kentactic

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Re: Re: M9 good?
« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2012, 08:28:53 PM »
A potential downside to something striker fired, is no seconed strike. While overall tap rack and bang is the answer. What if the attacker is on top of you or get you from the side. Pull the trigger, and nothing happens. Often times on a bad rounds the primer will ignite on a seconed or third strike. Like I said not the answer to all problems but good luck doing a tap rack and bang while getting physical with someone. Also a note of safeties. Its purely a training issue. There have been many occasion where on duty officers have been saved by their safety. Bad guy grabs gun, to shoot the cop. Pull trigger and nothing happens. Give the cop just enough time to react and save his own ass. Just a couple things to think about.

id still tap rack on a DA if a guys charging me... im not going to bet my life this was one of the rare times the second or third strike makes it go bang. tap racks slower but a lot better chance of making it go bang once completed.
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Offline Kentactic

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Re: Re: M9 good?
« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2012, 08:30:52 PM »
Safeties have also saved many people. When a bad guy grabs the gun but doesnt know how to work a safety

and it probably killed just as many when in a panic the guy with the gun didnt disengage the safety before shooting.
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Offline special-k

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Re: Debate on the Pros/Cons of Manual Firearm Safeties
« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2012, 08:37:11 PM »
@Kentactic  I'm glad to see at least one person on here really 'gets it' on the manual (handgun) safety issues.  You are well learn-ed bro. [URL=http://www.smileyvault.co
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 08:43:13 PM by special-k »
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Offline rah45

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Re: Debate on the Pros/Cons of Manual Firearm Safeties
« Reply #43 on: January 05, 2012, 10:10:32 PM »
Kentactic  I'm glad to see at least one person on here really 'gets it' on the manual (handgun) safety issues.  You are well learn-ed bro.


Yeah, I have to agree with your points of views. Unless there really is a risk of AD (1911s, for example), I don't see the need for a manual safety. Just listen to this guy!

« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 10:12:04 PM by rah45 »

Offline themighty9mm

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Re: Re: M9 good?
« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2012, 11:13:09 PM »
A potential downside to something striker fired, is no seconed strike. While overall tap rack and bang is the answer. What if the attacker is on top of you or get you from the side. Pull the trigger, and nothing happens. Often times on a bad rounds the primer will ignite on a seconed or third strike. Like I said not the answer to all problems but good luck doing a tap rack and bang while getting physical with someone. Also a note of safeties. Its purely a training issue. There have been many occasion where on duty officers have been saved by their safety. Bad guy grabs gun, to shoot the cop. Pull trigger and nothing happens. Give the cop just enough time to react and save his own ass. Just a couple things to think about.

id still tap rack on a DA if a guys charging me... im not going to bet my life this was one of the rare times the second or third strike makes it go bang. tap racks slower but a lot better chance of making it go bang once completed.
Wasnt speaking of if they are charging you. More so on you, is what I was refering to. Also how fast can you tap rack bang? A person can cover more than 21ft in under a seconed. After your draw, aim, and pull how long did that take? And if the bag guy is motivated how close to you is he after you hear a very loud click? I'm not saying a seconed strike is the answer to most sircumstances. I am saying it potentially has its place. Just like point shooting or any other tool that happens to be in the tool box.
Also a firearms without a safety has probably had more AD's than one with. While in panic mode one could just as easily have their finger on the trigger while drawing from a holster, inturn shooting themselves.
 
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 11:35:13 PM by themighty9mm »
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Offline themighty9mm

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Re: Debate on the Pros/Cons of Manual Firearm Safeties
« Reply #45 on: January 05, 2012, 11:21:10 PM »
@Kentactic  I'm glad to see at least one person on here really 'gets it' on the manual (handgun) safety issues.  You are well learn-ed bro.
Hey, I get it myself. I also get its a personal choice with pros and cons. Just like a firearms without a safety... Or any firearm for that matter. Also just like any gun choice there has to be training with it. Eventually it becomes muscle memory, just like drawing from a holster. To say that a safety has only negative downsides and point out its problems is no different than saying any sort of retention holster only has negatives. Just like a manual safety on a firearm, any retention holster also has to be trained with or you can run into the same type problems. Its all very simply a training and muscle memory issue. Pretty close to the same can be said with most slings on rifles aswell.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 11:29:44 PM by special-k »
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Offline themighty9mm

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Re: Debate on the Pros/Cons of Manual Firearm Safeties
« Reply #46 on: January 05, 2012, 11:28:26 PM »
Like I said before this got moved into its own thread. I'm not 100% for or against a safety, though I can see how it reads I am more for them. Like pretty much everything it has its pros and its cons. Either you can work with it or you can not
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 11:36:43 PM by themighty9mm »
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Offline mountainredneck2051

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Re: Debate on the Pros/Cons of Manual Firearm Safeties
« Reply #47 on: January 06, 2012, 12:23:36 AM »
shooting a hammer fired auto-loading pistol properly is more of a pain in the ass because you must also decock and engage the safety every time you holster. and of course disengage the safety as you draw. carrying a hammer fire pistol cocked open carried isnt a good idea, especially in brush... a twig gets in between the pin and hammer and now your gun no longer shoots... also dirt and god knows what else...so you have to decock and safety...blah blah...fuck that...

glock...draw... shoot..... holster....


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Offline v0dka

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Re: Debate on the Pros/Cons of Manual Firearm Safeties
« Reply #48 on: January 06, 2012, 01:10:19 AM »
i agree redneck....my safety on my 1911 doesn't even go on when the hammer is decocked.
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Offline themighty9mm

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Re: Debate on the Pros/Cons of Manual Firearm Safeties
« Reply #49 on: January 06, 2012, 03:42:05 AM »
shooting a hammer fired auto-loading pistol properly is more of a pain in the ass because you must also decock and engage the safety every time you holster. and of course disengage the safety as you draw. carrying a hammer fire pistol cocked open carried isnt a good idea, especially in brush... a twig gets in between the pin and hammer and now your gun no longer shoots... also dirt and god knows what else...so you have to decock and safety...blah blah...fuck that...

glock...draw... shoot..... holster....
I dont see how its a pain in the ass to make a small motion with your thumb... Provided you have full function of your hands. You make it seem as though its some earth moving effort. " so you have to decock and safety... blah blah... fuck that..." Decock and safety is the exact same motion, nothing else needed.
I have carried a hammer fired pistol often in brush. Also had one go down in a creek with me one deer season. Diddnt effect function at all. Diddnt get a deer that year, had to shoot somethin. Not saying it can't, but the probability is low. About the same probability that dust and gunk can get into a firing pin channel and clog it up making the glock no longer function. Given the scenario that debris gets in both a... Say beretta 92 and a glock 17 for example. Something gets stuck between the hammer, blow it out or pluck it out. With the glock, you must disassemble the slide. Or keep a air compressor handy. Like I said though the probabilty, I feel very safe in saying is very low on either account

M9... draw... shoot... holster... Safety is optional
« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 03:46:03 AM by themighty9mm »
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