Unchained Preppers
General Category => Security & Survival => Topic started by: mountainredneck2051 on January 04, 2012, 12:37:47 PM
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your supposed to use the safeties on 1911's? ???
Moderator's note: This thread split from a discussion of the Beretta M9 pistol. - rah45
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your supposed to use the safeties on 1911's? ???
Pretty sure.
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your supposed to use the safeties on 1911's? ???
Pretty sure.
A lot of people like to carry cocked and locked safety on.
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your supposed to use the safeties on 1911's? ???
Pretty sure.
A lot of people like to carry cocked and locked safety on.
Personally, I won't buy a handgun that has a safety. I tend toward Glock and classic Sig Sauers. That's my advice to anyone considering buying a M9.
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your supposed to use the safeties on 1911's? ???
Pretty sure.
A lot of people like to carry cocked and locked safety on.
To me that depends on the gun. I do carry one in the chamber in the Beretta Storm SC. But it has a roll away firing pin type of safety.
In general I don't trust safeties. I also don't care for handguns where I can't see the hammer.
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your supposed to use the safeties on 1911's? ???
Pretty sure.
A lot of people like to carry cocked and locked safety on.
Personally, I won't buy a handgun that has a safety. I tend toward Glock and classic Sig Sauers. That's my advice to anyone considering buying a M9.
That is just stupid IMO.
Even if like sledge says you don't trust the safety, its a good thing to have.
I generally don't buy a firearm with out a safety. Seen to much dumbshit happen because of lack of safety. I'll do everything I can to not have one of those situations happen again around my youngen & love.
RvR
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That is just stupid IMO.
Even if like sledge says you don't trust the safety, its a good thing to have.
I generally don't buy a firearm with out a safety. Seen to much dumbshit happen because of lack of safety. I'll do everything I can to not have one of those situations happen again around my youngen & love.
RvR
Not saying anything about your safety practices here, so don't be offended. ;)
I don't worry about manual safeties because I can trust myself not to train with my firearm unless it's unloaded or I'm at a range. Even if it's unloaded I practice as if it was loaded (okay, with dry firing you cannot always do that, but whenever I can I do). In my opinion, my wife and children will not be given a loaded weapon until they are capable of competently doing the same thing. If someone else is in my home/on my property with their firearm and they don't seem competent, they can leave the firearm in their vehicle or I will secure it, unloaded, in my own personal gun safe until they are ready to depart. If they don't like those requirements, they can leave. With those rules in place, I don't expect to have an AD. The closest I've ever come has been a couple of times when I've had an uncooperative holster...I quickly rectified that problem.
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I'll only carry a gun with out a safety if it has a trigger safety and back strap safety.
That being said I plan on buying a Walther pps and that only has a trigger safety. To compensate I'm not spending under 100$ for the holster and it will be hard and cover the trigger.
I cringe when i see or hear people carrying a gun with or without a holster by their belt buckle. Your just temping Murphy to much with that one.
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So you don't have others roaming around your house....? Child? Wife? Mother, father?
I prefer to keep a hot mag non in the tube safety on.
I know the Capabilities of my family members I practice with them daily.
Not having a safety on a firearm is just stupid. ( Even if you don't use it personally ) At least it's there for the one occasion where you might need it.
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A potential downside to something striker fired, is no seconed strike. While overall tap rack and bang is the answer. What if the attacker is on top of you or get you from the side. Pull the trigger, and nothing happens. Often times on a bad rounds the primer will ignite on a seconed or third strike. Like I said not the answer to all problems but good luck doing a tap rack and bang while getting physical with someone. Also a note of safeties. Its purely a training issue. There have been many occasion where on duty officers have been saved by their safety. Bad guy grabs gun, to shoot the cop. Pull trigger and nothing happens. Give the cop just enough time to react and save his own ass. Just a couple things to think about.
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That is just stupid IMO.
Even if like sledge says you don't trust the safety, its a good thing to have.
I generally don't buy a firearm with out a safety. Seen to much dumbshit happen because of lack of safety. I'll do everything I can to not have one of those situations happen again around my youngen & love.
RvR
I don't trust in safeties but I do insist on having one. A friend bought it on a hunting trip to Georgia when a 700 went off even though the safety was on. Dummy was putting the rifle away stock first in the back seat. All my guns have safeties except an old 12 ga break open and my revolvers.
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That is just stupid IMO.
Even if like sledge says you don't trust the safety, its a good thing to have.
I generally don't buy a firearm with out a safety. Seen to much dumbshit happen because of lack of safety. I'll do everything I can to not have one of those situations happen again around my youngen & love.
RvR
I don't trust in safeties but I do insist on having one. A friend bought it on a hunting trip to Georgia when a 700 went off even though the safety was on. Dummy was putting the rifle away stock first in the back seat. All my guns have safeties except an old 12 ga break open and my revolvers.
I actually lost a good friend to a muzzle loader... for some reason he capped up prior to getting out of the truck.
Sucks but He was asking for trouble and knew better. Judgment laps and stupid shit happens. This is why I have to have safety. All it takes is that one time gents.
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I just remember.
I almost got shot this hunting season because of a safety.
My friends gun looks like someone built it out of 3 different guns. If you put the safety on when the bolt is open then close it and take the safety off the gun will fire.
he didn't know that at the time and i had i bullet pass within 2 feet of me from 5 feet away.
fun experience.
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Safeties have also saved many people. When a bad guy grabs the gun but doesnt know how to work a safety
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I cringe when i see or hear people carrying a gun with or without a holster by their belt buckle. Your just temping Murphy to much with that one.
I agree. If I carry without a holster and it's not pocket-sized, I carry at the small of my back, and I make sure I'm wearing a good belt. If I do carry like that, it's only to and from the car or some other similar scenario.
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So you don't have others roaming around your house....? Child? Wife? Mother, father?
I prefer to keep a hot mag non in the tube safety on.
I know the Capabilities of my family members I practice with them daily.
Not having a safety on a firearm is just stupid. ( Even if you don't use it personally ) At least it's there for the one occasion where you might need it.
No, I have a child and a wife. I just keep it in my gun safe if it's loaded. If I'm going somewhere or I suspect something, it's on my hip inside my holster or in my hand. If I'm going to just transfer to the car for transport and don't need a holster, I carry either in the hand or in small of back wedged by my belt. If I don't have immediate control of it, it is either locked in the safe or it is unloaded. That is the case with both of my long guns, also. The wife has had one briefing on the basic operation of the firearm, and knows that if it's loaded, it's hot and ready to go...as I always tell her, "Your trigger finger is your only real safety." I'd train with her more, but specifically regarding firearms she might as well be a modern liberal.
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Oh yeah, Mandatory Mother fucking Smiley Insert
- Here - [img]http://www.arrse.co.uk/at
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I'm not necessarily for or against safeties. Though I can see how it would read I am more for them. Something else to be said about a good holster and/or safety. While you finger is the number one thing. Things can get cought inside trigger guards. Especially when you go to reholster. A peice of heavy string or a bit of ones shirt could relativly easily get cought. Just another fairly simple scenario where a mehanical safety could have helped avoid a AD
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And how is it diferent than on a rifle....
Well, uh, rifles usually aren't carried in a holster.
It's my opinion and I'm sticking to it...A safety on a handgun is a huge liability. I will not buy one with a safety.
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My 1911 is carried with round in the chamber, hammer coked and thumb safety on
My Browning Hi Pwr is carried with round in the chamber, hammer cocked and thumb safety on
My AR is carried with safety off
My Savage 99 is carried with safety on
My Marlin 336 is carried with hammer at half cock
My flint lock rifles are carried cocked with a leather sheath over the frizzen- On both rifles you have to
set the trigger before you can fire
My cap lock rifles are carried at half cock and you have to set the set trigger
There has been more empty weapons that have killed people then loaded ones. How many times has someone handed you a weapon and said, "it's not loaded" when it has been. I refuse to accept a weapon handed to me unless you show to me it it is free and clear, no powder is in the pan or cap on the nipple.
Now with that said, it absolutely drives me crazy when watching a movie that the cops or hoodlums who are in a gun fight have to chamber a round before they shoot. What BS!
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My 1911 is carried with round in the chamber, hammer coked and thumb safety on
My Browning Hi Pwr is carried with round in the chamber, hammer cocked and thumb safety on
My AR is carried with safety off
To each their own, there are plenty that do cocked and locked. But not me. I don't have that much faith in other people's designs and workmanship. I trust myself but I don't trust safeties.
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My AR is carried with safety off
That seems an odd deviation from your norm...why?
There has been more empty weapons that have killed people then loaded ones. How many times has someone handed you a weapon and said, "it's not loaded" when it has been. I refuse to accept a weapon handed to me unless you show to me it it is free and clear, no powder is in the pan or cap on the nipple.
Excellent point. I actually have pro-gun people who look at me funny when I insist on unloading and locking back the barrel for them before I had them the firearm for their perusal. If it's loaded, and they're about to shoot it, I either put it down and let them pick it up, unload and let them reload, or (if I REALLY trust them) hold by the slide and let them grip it by the handle, finger off the trigger.
Now with that said, it absolutely drives me crazy when watching a movie that the cops or hoodlums who are in a gun fight have to chamber a round before they shoot. What BS!
You ain't kiddin'!
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For a 1911, use it. The reason you can get away from a manually engaged safety on a glock, m9 or HK is that they have relatively long and heavier trigger pulls to reach the break point on the sear in comparison to 1911s.
Couple the short trigger travel and the light weights people put on their 1911's and you're asking for trouble without using the thumb safety.
It all comes down to a training issue. Thumb on thumb safety when establishing the grip in the draw, it doesn't get flicked to the off position until pressing out (sights on target) from the high compressed ready. After engaging, it gets put back on safe after coming to high compressed ready before you scan.
No matter what the gun... Safety on while carried. It doesn't take you any more time to take it off when needed. If you can pull the trigger under stress, you can certainly manipulate the safety on and off as needed.
For the record, grip safetys sre dumb.I pin my grip safetys on the 1911, and only leave the thumb active.
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I think that's one very important reason that I like the DA/SA action of the Sig Sauer pistols. I don't have to worry about a safety, because the DA trigger pull is heavy enough that it would be difficult to manipulate unless you meant to do so. However, you can still manually activate SA trigger mode by pulling back the hammer or by firing the first shot in DA mode. So, for me, it still has the nice SA action, but still has a safety...sort of. It seems to fit the K.I.S.S. principle, in my opinion. My only safety is my finger.
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I won't speak for anyone else, but I won't carry a 1911 without a manual safety on and a round in the chamber. Safety off, no round in the chamber and it's slightly less useless than a pointy stick with a thug charging at you. Safety off, round in the chamber is silly for obvious reasons, and lowering the hammer on a 1911 over a live round is plain dangerous.
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Rah wrote in Ref to my not using the safety on my AR:
That seems an odd deviation from your norm...why?
Great question Rah. It was the way I was instructed. A friend who is a retired Army Ranger coached me to:
> Carry my AR with a fully loaded mag, with no round in the chamber, bolt locked back and
extraction opening port closed. To load and shoot press bolt lock release, weapon ready to fire.
I asked him why and he told me "memory retention. Do you turn your selector to safety before
you change mags each time?" A friend of my brother who is a small arms trainer in Afghanistan
carries his M4 the same way when he visits us at the BOL.
> At the BOL I use to store my AR with a loaded mag, round in the chamber and safety on by the
door. We have a coyote problem and it is just quicker when one comes into the field below our
cabin to engage the beast. I use to put my AR in the corner for the night, butt down and muzzle
up. The Ranger coached me to store the weapon muzzle down butt up and no round in the
chamber and set up as described above. I asked him why and he told me, "he would rather have
a stray round go into the floor rather then through the roof" and again "memory
retention."
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Johny, I believe that to be bad advice you got there buddy. Muzzle down (keeps dust out) sure but bolt locked rearward safety off? No dude. All it is going to take is a good little digger or a chest bump and next thing you know that bolt has gone home and you've gone from condition 3 to condition zero in no time.. Take your rifle without a mag in it and lock that bolt rearward. Then put on all your kit like you were going to bail out and take it for a jog. I will bet money that you drop that bolt by accident when you are running full retard.
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Lol I've only read a small bit and to save myself the headache I'm just posting my opinion. This is my belief no one else's so if ya don't like it good for you.
Safeties are important on any firearm. That said I prefer the Glock style internal, and I've owned both so ya can't say I'm just loving on the Glock lol. I rarely used the safety on the 1911 when I had it cause I just rode with the pipe clear. I do the same basically with the Glock only it's got the internal stuff too. I'm of the belief that more important than what safety bells and whistles a gun has is the level of training and maturity of the individual. Of course that's not to say that even the best of us hasn't experienced a negligent discharge.
And safeties aren't fool proof... Look at TexG. [img]http://www.arrse.co.uk/at [url=http://yoursmiles.org/p-m
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Thanks for the feedback TG. [URL=http://www.smileyvault.co
Life is never easy, is it? ;)
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Of course that's not to say that even the best of us hasn't experienced a negligent discharge.
I'm not the best of us, maybe just the luckiest of us. I've never had a N/D and hope I never do. Especially one like TexG's. If I ever do you can bet your ass it won't ever show up on YouTube. I don't need that kind of fame. LOL!
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I had a ND twice with the same weapon (I may have posted this on L&L). I had a really sweet 1939 manufactured 99 Savage that I took into my gun smith for him to work on the trigger creep and bring the trigget pull down to 4 pounds or so.
Well I got the rifle back and the creep was gone and the trigger pull was about 4 1/2#'s and nice & crisp. I broke several speed laws driving to the range to try her out. On or about the fourth round, when I was chambering a round the rifle fired. Thinking that maybe I was tired and accidentally touched the trigger I called it a day and went home.
Jump ahead a few weeks I found myself up at the BOL. I took out the above mentioned rifle and started to zero in the rifle at 100 yards. When on the fourth round I chambered the weapon and it went off again. I knew damn well I hadn't touched the trigger this time!
When I got home I took the rifle back to the gunsmith. According to him, he reworked "the sear" and as of today it has not happened again. The trigger creep is still gone and the "let off" is crisp but the trigger pull now is just shy of 7#'s. Let me tell you...It scared the crap out of me. I could not have lived with myself if I had accidentally hurt somebody.
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It depends on the gun to me. Guns like a Glock or an M&P are fine without them in most cases. If you had a modified trigger (As in a "breath on it and it goes off" trigger) I'd say the safety would be needed.
I like a safety on a 1911. The light, short trigger pull in most SAO guns would make me nervous to carry without a safety.
With DA/SA guns with a heavy DA pull I really see no need for a safety.
Safeties are good because they cater to the lowest common denominator (Us) in most situations; they help lower the chances of a stress induced accident caused by negligence *Cough not practicing and obeying the 4 commandments Cough*.
They also hinder the lowest common denominator (Us again) because under stress we can either forget to flip them off or in some cases (Some USPs and similar guns) you could accidentally decock the gun.
I think it's all about personal preference and practice......but what do I know lol?
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my initial reaction is wtf i started a thread? :o
in my opinion, get a holster that covers the trigger and dont pull the fucking trigger, and everything else wont matter
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For my side arm i like a manual safety. Its what Ive trained with more than anything.
And i like to carry with a round chambered and safety on.
My AK however depends upon where i am. if I'm in the Field then its round chambered safety off and finger along the trigger guard and muzzle controll. If I'm in camp its round chambered safety on and slung across chest. That is due to the nature of the AKs safety lever. its not exactly the quickest or quietest safety on the market.
And JMc I'm guessing your Ranger buddy is a little older. Ive trained with the Rangerific types and got the (round chambered-thumb on selector switch- finger along the trigger guard) block of instruction. The whole muzzle down thing in the military came about with the helicopter. Must have muzzle down when the engine and rotors are right above you. and yes i would rather have a leakey floor than a leakey roof.
I'm not calling BS on your buddy at all i just think his training is a little more old school than some of ours. one of the great things about the AR platform is the ergonomics of the design. you can disengage the safety and move finger to trigger in very quick and smooth motion whilst taking proper aim. Realeasing the bolt catch makes the weapon jump unnecessarily, adding a little more time to target acquisition.
Ive been on the AK platform for a while now. So perhaps I'm off base.
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Yup Whiskey he is an old guy... He is in his early 40's [img]http://www.arrse.co.uk/at. His last tour was Iraq in '07 or '08- I forget. He did his 20 and then bailed.
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THIS DEBATE IS STUPID AND YOU SHOULD DO WHAT WORKS FOR YOU! That is all.
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shooting a hammer fired auto-loading pistol properly is more of a pain in the ass because you must also decock and engage the safety every time you holster. and of course disengage the safety as you draw. carrying a hammer fire pistol cocked open carried isnt a good idea, especially in brush... a twig gets in between the pin and hammer and now your gun no longer shoots... also dirt and god knows what else...so you have to decock and safety...blah blah...fuck that...
glock...draw... shoot..... holster....
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your supposed to use the safeties on 1911's? ???
Pretty sure.
A lot of people like to carry cocked and locked safety on.
Personally, I won't buy a handgun that has a safety. I tend toward Glock and classic Sig Sauers. That's my advice to anyone considering buying a M9.
That is just stupid IMO.
Even if like sledge says you don't trust the safety, its a good thing to have.
I generally don't buy a firearm with out a safety. Seen to much dumbshit happen because of lack of safety. I'll do everything I can to not have one of those situations happen again around my youngen & love.
RvR
if your "Trusting" the safety then maybe being around firearms isnt the best idea.... if you have trust that you can now point the gun where ever you want because you have a safety then thats crazy bad... just like you can forget muzzle control you can forget to engage the safety. and if your saying you still maintain proper muzzle control at all times then whats the safety for exactly? wether the guns have a safety or not the same human error is possible... in my opinion human error is a higher risk WITH a safety because its a false sense of security. kinda like all the people shooting there hunting buddies by accident with there rem700 because they TRUSTED the safety... shit breaks...the only safety should be you keeping the gun pointed in the right direction 100% of the time... feel free to sneak up and pull the trigger on my loaded firearms any time you want because they will always be pointed in a safe direction no matter what.
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I hear ya' Ken but according to Rah I am an old Geezer. Old Geezers like hammers :))
Spirit, If you don't like this thread don't read it. ;)
I know I am being honory this evening. >:D
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So you don't have others roaming around your house....? Child? Wife? Mother, father?
I prefer to keep a hot mag non in the tube safety on.
I know the Capabilities of my family members I practice with them daily.
Not having a safety on a firearm is just stupid. ( Even if you don't use it personally ) At least it's there for the one occasion where you might need it.
if you need a safety for a loaded gun sitting around the house due to family who may make a mistake then please lock up all fire arms in a safer location...the safety is not a child lock.
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A potential downside to something striker fired, is no seconed strike. While overall tap rack and bang is the answer. What if the attacker is on top of you or get you from the side. Pull the trigger, and nothing happens. Often times on a bad rounds the primer will ignite on a seconed or third strike. Like I said not the answer to all problems but good luck doing a tap rack and bang while getting physical with someone. Also a note of safeties. Its purely a training issue. There have been many occasion where on duty officers have been saved by their safety. Bad guy grabs gun, to shoot the cop. Pull trigger and nothing happens. Give the cop just enough time to react and save his own ass. Just a couple things to think about.
id still tap rack on a DA if a guys charging me... im not going to bet my life this was one of the rare times the second or third strike makes it go bang. tap racks slower but a lot better chance of making it go bang once completed.
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Safeties have also saved many people. When a bad guy grabs the gun but doesnt know how to work a safety
and it probably killed just as many when in a panic the guy with the gun didnt disengage the safety before shooting.
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@Kentactic I'm glad to see at least one person on here really 'gets it' on the manual (handgun) safety issues. You are well learn-ed bro. [URL=http://www.smileyvault.co
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Kentactic I'm glad to see at least one person on here really 'gets it' on the manual (handgun) safety issues. You are well learn-ed bro.
Yeah, I have to agree with your points of views. Unless there really is a risk of AD (1911s, for example), I don't see the need for a manual safety. Just listen to this guy!
http://youtu.be/Vb5quj6ZhJM (http://youtu.be/Vb5quj6ZhJM)
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A potential downside to something striker fired, is no seconed strike. While overall tap rack and bang is the answer. What if the attacker is on top of you or get you from the side. Pull the trigger, and nothing happens. Often times on a bad rounds the primer will ignite on a seconed or third strike. Like I said not the answer to all problems but good luck doing a tap rack and bang while getting physical with someone. Also a note of safeties. Its purely a training issue. There have been many occasion where on duty officers have been saved by their safety. Bad guy grabs gun, to shoot the cop. Pull trigger and nothing happens. Give the cop just enough time to react and save his own ass. Just a couple things to think about.
id still tap rack on a DA if a guys charging me... im not going to bet my life this was one of the rare times the second or third strike makes it go bang. tap racks slower but a lot better chance of making it go bang once completed.
Wasnt speaking of if they are charging you. More so on you, is what I was refering to. Also how fast can you tap rack bang? A person can cover more than 21ft in under a seconed. After your draw, aim, and pull how long did that take? And if the bag guy is motivated how close to you is he after you hear a very loud click? I'm not saying a seconed strike is the answer to most sircumstances. I am saying it potentially has its place. Just like point shooting or any other tool that happens to be in the tool box.
Also a firearms without a safety has probably had more AD's than one with. While in panic mode one could just as easily have their finger on the trigger while drawing from a holster, inturn shooting themselves.
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@Kentactic I'm glad to see at least one person on here really 'gets it' on the manual (handgun) safety issues. You are well learn-ed bro.
Hey, I get it myself. I also get its a personal choice with pros and cons. Just like a firearms without a safety... Or any firearm for that matter. Also just like any gun choice there has to be training with it. Eventually it becomes muscle memory, just like drawing from a holster. To say that a safety has only negative downsides and point out its problems is no different than saying any sort of retention holster only has negatives. Just like a manual safety on a firearm, any retention holster also has to be trained with or you can run into the same type problems. Its all very simply a training and muscle memory issue. Pretty close to the same can be said with most slings on rifles aswell.
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Like I said before this got moved into its own thread. I'm not 100% for or against a safety, though I can see how it reads I am more for them. Like pretty much everything it has its pros and its cons. Either you can work with it or you can not
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shooting a hammer fired auto-loading pistol properly is more of a pain in the ass because you must also decock and engage the safety every time you holster. and of course disengage the safety as you draw. carrying a hammer fire pistol cocked open carried isnt a good idea, especially in brush... a twig gets in between the pin and hammer and now your gun no longer shoots... also dirt and god knows what else...so you have to decock and safety...blah blah...fuck that...
glock...draw... shoot..... holster....
this statement is just full of [img]http://www.arrse.co.uk/at
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i agree redneck....my safety on my 1911 doesn't even go on when the hammer is decocked.
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shooting a hammer fired auto-loading pistol properly is more of a pain in the ass because you must also decock and engage the safety every time you holster. and of course disengage the safety as you draw. carrying a hammer fire pistol cocked open carried isnt a good idea, especially in brush... a twig gets in between the pin and hammer and now your gun no longer shoots... also dirt and god knows what else...so you have to decock and safety...blah blah...fuck that...
glock...draw... shoot..... holster....
I dont see how its a pain in the ass to make a small motion with your thumb... Provided you have full function of your hands. You make it seem as though its some earth moving effort. " so you have to decock and safety... blah blah... fuck that..." Decock and safety is the exact same motion, nothing else needed.
I have carried a hammer fired pistol often in brush. Also had one go down in a creek with me one deer season. Diddnt effect function at all. Diddnt get a deer that year, had to shoot somethin. Not saying it can't, but the probability is low. About the same probability that dust and gunk can get into a firing pin channel and clog it up making the glock no longer function. Given the scenario that debris gets in both a... Say beretta 92 and a glock 17 for example. Something gets stuck between the hammer, blow it out or pluck it out. With the glock, you must disassemble the slide. Or keep a air compressor handy. Like I said though the probabilty, I feel very safe in saying is very low on either account
M9... draw... shoot... holster... Safety is optional
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A potential downside to something striker fired, is no seconed strike. While overall tap rack and bang is the answer. What if the attacker is on top of you or get you from the side. Pull the trigger, and nothing happens. Often times on a bad rounds the primer will ignite on a seconed or third strike. Like I said not the answer to all problems but good luck doing a tap rack and bang while getting physical with someone. Also a note of safeties. Its purely a training issue. There have been many occasion where on duty officers have been saved by their safety. Bad guy grabs gun, to shoot the cop. Pull trigger and nothing happens. Give the cop just enough time to react and save his own ass. Just a couple things to think about.
id still tap rack on a DA if a guys charging me... im not going to bet my life this was one of the rare times the second or third strike makes it go bang. tap racks slower but a lot better chance of making it go bang once completed.
Wasnt speaking of if they are charging you. More so on you, is what I was refering to. Also how fast can you tap rack bang? A person can cover more than 21ft in under a seconed. After your draw, aim, and pull how long did that take? And if the bag guy is motivated how close to you is he after you hear a very loud click? I'm not saying a seconed strike is the answer to most sircumstances. I am saying it potentially has its place. Just like point shooting or any other tool that happens to be in the tool box.
Also a firearms without a safety has probably had more AD's than one with. While in panic mode one could just as easily have their finger on the trigger while drawing from a holster, inturn shooting themselves.
i dont train with a DA pistol. but is there ever a time when one should try second and third strikes ona round to see if it goes bang? in my opinion id say no never. the only time ive ever experienced a round that didnt go bang and second strikes cured the problem is on old surplus rifles that had cosmoline jammed inside the bolt that i never cleaned out before shooting them and the strikes were weak because of that. id say in any situation with a DA or not id just go for the much more likely tap rack then the "please god let it just need a second strike".... how long does a "tap, rack, bang" take?... well its a little bit less time then "second strike, third strike, tap, rack, bang"... i say this because if you going for a second and maybe third strikes on the gun you better make damn sure youll have time to tap rack bang if that very rare occassion a round needs another strike or two magically still dosent occur.
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I have carried a hammer fired pistol often in brush. Also had one go down in a creek with me one deer season. Diddnt effect function at all.
ive never been shot before and people who have owned guns have been mad at me.. i must be bullet proof cus it hasnt happened yet.
Look guys i dont train with a DA auto loading pistol...and ive only shot a handfull. i dont know if you guys are talking out of your asses because you dont like what im saying about DA pistols or if you actually know wtf your talking about though teachings from people smarter then us. but the people smarter then us that ive learned from tell you to decock the hammer on a DA because shit can get in the way... its just a shelf on your person waiting for something to rest on. you guys ever taken a dive into some sand?... that open pocket would scoop up dirt like crazy... and id have to say i think a bunch of sand in the way is going to cause issues... and thats way more likely then sand stopping a glock some how.
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A potential downside to something striker fired, is no seconed strike. While overall tap rack and bang is the answer. What if the attacker is on top of you or get you from the side. Pull the trigger, and nothing happens. Often times on a bad rounds the primer will ignite on a seconed or third strike. Like I said not the answer to all problems but good luck doing a tap rack and bang while getting physical with someone. Also a note of safeties. Its purely a training issue. There have been many occasion where on duty officers have been saved by their safety. Bad guy grabs gun, to shoot the cop. Pull trigger and nothing happens. Give the cop just enough time to react and save his own ass. Just a couple things to think about.
id still tap rack on a DA if a guys charging me... im not going to bet my life this was one of the rare times the second or third strike makes it go bang. tap racks slower but a lot better chance of making it go bang once completed.
Wasnt speaking of if they are charging you. More so on you, is what I was refering to. Also how fast can you tap rack bang? A person can cover more than 21ft in under a seconed. After your draw, aim, and pull how long did that take? And if the bag guy is motivated how close to you is he after you hear a very loud click? I'm not saying a seconed strike is the answer to most sircumstances. I am saying it potentially has its place. Just like point shooting or any other tool that happens to be in the tool box.
Also a firearms without a safety has probably had more AD's than one with. While in panic mode one could just as easily have their finger on the trigger while drawing from a holster, inturn shooting themselves.
i dont train with a DA pistol. but is there ever a time when one should try second and third strikes ona round to see if it goes bang? in my opinion id say no never. the only time ive ever experienced a round that didnt go bang and second strikes cured the problem is on old surplus rifles that had cosmoline jammed inside the bolt that i never cleaned out before shooting them and the strikes were weak because of that. id say in any situation with a DA or not id just go for the much more likely tap rack then the "please god let it just need a second strike".... how long does a "tap, rack, bang" take?... well its a little bit less time then "second strike, third strike, tap, rack, bang"... i say this because if you going for a second and maybe third strikes on the gun you better make damn sure youll have time to tap rack bang if that very rare occassion a round needs another strike or two magically still dosent occur.
No, no... you are not getting what I'm saying. If they are ON you. As in on top of you. As in physically on top of you. There will be no opportunity what so ever. To do any tap rack and bang. Anybody who has ever been in a fist fight that went to the ground can tell you the same thing. Again, it's not a end all be all solution. But it does have its place. Again, another tool in the tool box sort of thing
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I have carried a hammer fired pistol often in brush. Also had one go down in a creek with me one deer season. Diddnt effect function at all.
ive never been shot before and people who have owned guns have been mad at me.. i must be bullet proof cus it hasnt happened yet.
Look guys i dont train with a DA auto loading pistol...and ive only shot a handfull. i dont know if you guys are talking out of your asses because you dont like what im saying about DA pistols or if you actually know wtf your talking about though teachings from people smarter then us. but the people smarter then us that ive learned from tell you to decock the hammer on a DA because shit can get in the way... its just a shelf on your person waiting for something to rest on. you guys ever taken a dive into some sand?... that open pocket would scoop up dirt like crazy... and id have to say i think a bunch of sand in the way is going to cause issues... and thats way more likely then sand stopping a glock some how.
I'm not talking from my ass, nore just listening to some guys words. Experience in my oppinion, trumps all.. My experience has showed me, the likely hood of any debris getting between the hammer, or firing pin channel on a glock is so small, its insignifigant. And what shelf are you talking about? On a DA gun the hammer is down. Not a thing is gtting between the hammer and firing pin. No more sand is going to get inside the channel of a DA gun than a glock. Exactly why I used the m9 and glock as a reference. Maybe you were specifically speaking of SA??
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A potential downside to something striker fired, is no seconed strike. While overall tap rack and bang is the answer. What if the attacker is on top of you or get you from the side. Pull the trigger, and nothing happens. Often times on a bad rounds the primer will ignite on a seconed or third strike. Like I said not the answer to all problems but good luck doing a tap rack and bang while getting physical with someone. Also a note of safeties. Its purely a training issue. There have been many occasion where on duty officers have been saved by their safety. Bad guy grabs gun, to shoot the cop. Pull trigger and nothing happens. Give the cop just enough time to react and save his own ass. Just a couple things to think about.
id still tap rack on a DA if a guys charging me... im not going to bet my life this was one of the rare times the second or third strike makes it go bang. tap racks slower but a lot better chance of making it go bang once completed.
Wasnt speaking of if they are charging you. More so on you, is what I was refering to. Also how fast can you tap rack bang? A person can cover more than 21ft in under a seconed. After your draw, aim, and pull how long did that take? And if the bag guy is motivated how close to you is he after you hear a very loud click? I'm not saying a seconed strike is the answer to most sircumstances. I am saying it potentially has its place. Just like point shooting or any other tool that happens to be in the tool box.
Also a firearms without a safety has probably had more AD's than one with. While in panic mode one could just as easily have their finger on the trigger while drawing from a holster, inturn shooting themselves.
i dont train with a DA pistol. but is there ever a time when one should try second and third strikes ona round to see if it goes bang? in my opinion id say no never. the only time ive ever experienced a round that didnt go bang and second strikes cured the problem is on old surplus rifles that had cosmoline jammed inside the bolt that i never cleaned out before shooting them and the strikes were weak because of that. id say in any situation with a DA or not id just go for the much more likely tap rack then the "please god let it just need a second strike".... how long does a "tap, rack, bang" take?... well its a little bit less time then "second strike, third strike, tap, rack, bang"... i say this because if you going for a second and maybe third strikes on the gun you better make damn sure youll have time to tap rack bang if that very rare occassion a round needs another strike or two magically still dosent occur.
No, no... you are not getting what I'm saying. If they are ON you. As in on top of you. As in physically on top of you. There will be no opportunity what so ever. To do any tap rack and bang. Anybody who has ever been in a fist fight that went to the ground can tell you the same thing. Again, it's not a end all be all solution. But it does have its place. Again, another tool in the tool box sort of thing
This is really getting out there now. If someone is on top of you like that before you react, you deserve what you get unless you were sleeping. If they are on top of you like that wasting time going for your pistol would be pretty foolish. And if I'm fighting on the ground with someone I don't want a cocked and locked pistol on my side.
The M9 will kill an opponent if applied effectively. Was that the original question? :)
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I have carried a hammer fired pistol often in brush. Also had one go down in a creek with me one deer season. Diddnt effect function at all.
ive never been shot before and people who have owned guns have been mad at me.. i must be bullet proof cus it hasnt happened yet.
Look guys i dont train with a DA auto loading pistol...and ive only shot a handfull. i dont know if you guys are talking out of your asses because you dont like what im saying about DA pistols or if you actually know wtf your talking about though teachings from people smarter then us. but the people smarter then us that ive learned from tell you to decock the hammer on a DA because shit can get in the way... its just a shelf on your person waiting for something to rest on. you guys ever taken a dive into some sand?... that open pocket would scoop up dirt like crazy... and id have to say i think a bunch of sand in the way is going to cause issues... and thats way more likely then sand stopping a glock some how.
I'm not talking from my ass, nore just listening to some guys words. Experience in my oppinion, trumps all.. My experience has showed me, the likely hood of any debris getting between the hammer, or firing pin channel on a glock is so small, its insignifigant. And what shelf are you talking about? On a DA gun the hammer is down. Not a thing is gtting between the hammer and firing pin. No more sand is going to get inside the channel of a DA gun than a glock. Exactly why I used the m9 and glock as a reference. Maybe you were specifically speaking of SA??
Yes thats all im saying.. on a DA hammer fired pistol the gun needs to be Decocked after use and before its holstered. walking around with a cocked hammer in the holster is asking for shit to get in there.
i assumed you were saying you leave the pistol cocked upon reholstering:
"M9... draw... shoot... holster... Safety is optional"
if you draw shoot and holster you still have a cocked hammer.. and a cocked hammer on a gun with the safety not on is kinda sketchy because there is no trigger safety to make it some what safer. aswell as the danger of debris blocking the hammer from proper function.
let me make it clear im not knocking the use of DA guns... many people use them and thats just fine. but where i have issues is when people say its ok to impropely use a specific gun.
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A potential downside to something striker fired, is no seconed strike. While overall tap rack and bang is the answer. What if the attacker is on top of you or get you from the side. Pull the trigger, and nothing happens. Often times on a bad rounds the primer will ignite on a seconed or third strike. Like I said not the answer to all problems but good luck doing a tap rack and bang while getting physical with someone. Also a note of safeties. Its purely a training issue. There have been many occasion where on duty officers have been saved by their safety. Bad guy grabs gun, to shoot the cop. Pull trigger and nothing happens. Give the cop just enough time to react and save his own ass. Just a couple things to think about.
id still tap rack on a DA if a guys charging me... im not going to bet my life this was one of the rare times the second or third strike makes it go bang. tap racks slower but a lot better chance of making it go bang once completed.
Wasnt speaking of if they are charging you. More so on you, is what I was refering to. Also how fast can you tap rack bang? A person can cover more than 21ft in under a seconed. After your draw, aim, and pull how long did that take? And if the bag guy is motivated how close to you is he after you hear a very loud click? I'm not saying a seconed strike is the answer to most sircumstances. I am saying it potentially has its place. Just like point shooting or any other tool that happens to be in the tool box.
Also a firearms without a safety has probably had more AD's than one with. While in panic mode one could just as easily have their finger on the trigger while drawing from a holster, inturn shooting themselves.
i dont train with a DA pistol. but is there ever a time when one should try second and third strikes ona round to see if it goes bang? in my opinion id say no never. the only time ive ever experienced a round that didnt go bang and second strikes cured the problem is on old surplus rifles that had cosmoline jammed inside the bolt that i never cleaned out before shooting them and the strikes were weak because of that. id say in any situation with a DA or not id just go for the much more likely tap rack then the "please god let it just need a second strike".... how long does a "tap, rack, bang" take?... well its a little bit less time then "second strike, third strike, tap, rack, bang"... i say this because if you going for a second and maybe third strikes on the gun you better make damn sure youll have time to tap rack bang if that very rare occassion a round needs another strike or two magically still dosent occur.
No, no... you are not getting what I'm saying. If they are ON you. As in on top of you. As in physically on top of you. There will be no opportunity what so ever. To do any tap rack and bang. Anybody who has ever been in a fist fight that went to the ground can tell you the same thing. Again, it's not a end all be all solution. But it does have its place. Again, another tool in the tool box sort of thing
This is really getting out there now. If someone is on top of you like that before you react, you deserve what you get unless you were sleeping. If they are on top of you like that wasting time going for your pistol would be pretty foolish. And if I'm fighting on the ground with someone I don't want a cocked and locked pistol on my side.
The M9 will kill an opponent if applied effectively. Was that the original question? :)
I dont see how its so far out there. Given a civillian scenario. A mugging, maybe you get jumped, maybe more than one bad guy. Unless, everyone is a little baby jerry mickelec (sp? I know i just destroyed his last name) If this is the case though, I have yet to see it in my years of shooting. What I tend to see on most public ranges is some piss poor either very slow pace of ridiculously fast paced shooting. Back to a civillian scenario. Given the poor shooting I have seen, with any sort of multiple BG's alot of misses would give the BG every opportunity to get on top of his now perceived threat are very much so possible. I really dont see a BG being physically on top of you a far stretch at all. Most people wont try to rob you at 50 yards out. Most crime is within 7 yards, 21 feet. And that bring my back to how fast can you tap rack and bang? A average person can cover 21 feet in under a seconed. So to me a seconed strike has its place. Another tool in the tool box. Not the answer to everything, but has its place. Same thing for example would be point shooting. Not the end all be all. But has its place
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A potential downside to something striker fired, is no seconed strike. While overall tap rack and bang is the answer. What if the attacker is on top of you or get you from the side. Pull the trigger, and nothing happens. Often times on a bad rounds the primer will ignite on a seconed or third strike. Like I said not the answer to all problems but good luck doing a tap rack and bang while getting physical with someone. Also a note of safeties. Its purely a training issue. There have been many occasion where on duty officers have been saved by their safety. Bad guy grabs gun, to shoot the cop. Pull trigger and nothing happens. Give the cop just enough time to react and save his own ass. Just a couple things to think about.
id still tap rack on a DA if a guys charging me... im not going to bet my life this was one of the rare times the second or third strike makes it go bang. tap racks slower but a lot better chance of making it go bang once completed.
Wasnt speaking of if they are charging you. More so on you, is what I was refering to. Also how fast can you tap rack bang? A person can cover more than 21ft in under a seconed. After your draw, aim, and pull how long did that take? And if the bag guy is motivated how close to you is he after you hear a very loud click? I'm not saying a seconed strike is the answer to most sircumstances. I am saying it potentially has its place. Just like point shooting or any other tool that happens to be in the tool box.
Also a firearms without a safety has probably had more AD's than one with. While in panic mode one could just as easily have their finger on the trigger while drawing from a holster, inturn shooting themselves.
i dont train with a DA pistol. but is there ever a time when one should try second and third strikes ona round to see if it goes bang? in my opinion id say no never. the only time ive ever experienced a round that didnt go bang and second strikes cured the problem is on old surplus rifles that had cosmoline jammed inside the bolt that i never cleaned out before shooting them and the strikes were weak because of that. id say in any situation with a DA or not id just go for the much more likely tap rack then the "please god let it just need a second strike".... how long does a "tap, rack, bang" take?... well its a little bit less time then "second strike, third strike, tap, rack, bang"... i say this because if you going for a second and maybe third strikes on the gun you better make damn sure youll have time to tap rack bang if that very rare occassion a round needs another strike or two magically still dosent occur.
No, no... you are not getting what I'm saying. If they are ON you. As in on top of you. As in physically on top of you. There will be no opportunity what so ever. To do any tap rack and bang. Anybody who has ever been in a fist fight that went to the ground can tell you the same thing. Again, it's not a end all be all solution. But it does have its place. Again, another tool in the tool box sort of thing
if your on the ground with a bad guy fighting and the pistol no longer shoots thank your lucky stars that atleast the simple act of pulling the trigger dosent make it go bang any longer and if a DA pistol will possibly make it go bang where a SA will not then thats a dissadvantage in my eyes. the last thing i want to do is be fighting on the ground for a gun that works.
EDIT: but were talking about a situation that you might shoot 1 million rounds and never actually see a round require 2 strikes to go bang unless its a gun problem. the scenario is so rare it shouldnt even be considered in training in my personal opinion. so as far as im concerned when my sidearm goes down. wether it be M9, glock or what ever.. im tap racking to try and fix the problem.
if you think a second strike may fix the problem then you must incorporate the multiple strikes into every malfunction you ever have with a pistol... you must now strike strike tap rack... because you arent going to train to tap rack and then a guys on you and suddenly you rise to the occassion and do something youve never practiced. so once again..its way to rare a problem and scenarion to even consider training for it. it will make you over all less effective. you sacrifice all other situations to make one very rare one better.
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I have carried a hammer fired pistol often in brush. Also had one go down in a creek with me one deer season. Diddnt effect function at all.
ive never been shot before and people who have owned guns have been mad at me.. i must be bullet proof cus it hasnt happened yet.
Look guys i dont train with a DA auto loading pistol...and ive only shot a handfull. i dont know if you guys are talking out of your asses because you dont like what im saying about DA pistols or if you actually know wtf your talking about though teachings from people smarter then us. but the people smarter then us that ive learned from tell you to decock the hammer on a DA because shit can get in the way... its just a shelf on your person waiting for something to rest on. you guys ever taken a dive into some sand?... that open pocket would scoop up dirt like crazy... and id have to say i think a bunch of sand in the way is going to cause issues... and thats way more likely then sand stopping a glock some how.
I'm not talking from my ass, nore just listening to some guys words. Experience in my oppinion, trumps all.. My experience has showed me, the likely hood of any debris getting between the hammer, or firing pin channel on a glock is so small, its insignifigant. And what shelf are you talking about? On a DA gun the hammer is down. Not a thing is gtting between the hammer and firing pin. No more sand is going to get inside the channel of a DA gun than a glock. Exactly why I used the m9 and glock as a reference. Maybe you were specifically speaking of SA??
Yes thats all im saying.. on a DA hammer fired pistol the gun needs to be Decocked after use and before its holstered. walking around with a cocked hammer in the holster is asking for shit to get in there.
i assumed you were saying you leave the pistol cocked upon reholstering:
No, that wouldnt make any sense at all. I guess do to my experience with them I also assumed everyone else already knew that. Things like that have become, habit/muscle memory a while back
"M9... draw... shoot... holster... Safety is optional"
if you draw shoot and holster you still have a cocked hammer.. and a cocked hammer on a gun with the safety not on is kinda sketchy because there is no trigger safety to make it some what safer. aswell as the danger of debris blocking the hammer from proper function.
Well, yea
let me make it clear im not knocking the use of DA guns... many people use them and thats just fine. but where i have issues is when people say its ok to impropely use a specific gun.
Uh Huh, I fully agree. No argument from me what so ever on that. Just like each tool in the box. Each one has its place.
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A potential downside to something striker fired, is no seconed strike. While overall tap rack and bang is the answer. What if the attacker is on top of you or get you from the side. Pull the trigger, and nothing happens. Often times on a bad rounds the primer will ignite on a seconed or third strike. Like I said not the answer to all problems but good luck doing a tap rack and bang while getting physical with someone. Also a note of safeties. Its purely a training issue. There have been many occasion where on duty officers have been saved by their safety. Bad guy grabs gun, to shoot the cop. Pull trigger and nothing happens. Give the cop just enough time to react and save his own ass. Just a couple things to think about.
id still tap rack on a DA if a guys charging me... im not going to bet my life this was one of the rare times the second or third strike makes it go bang. tap racks slower but a lot better chance of making it go bang once completed.
Wasnt speaking of if they are charging you. More so on you, is what I was refering to. Also how fast can you tap rack bang? A person can cover more than 21ft in under a seconed. After your draw, aim, and pull how long did that take? And if the bag guy is motivated how close to you is he after you hear a very loud click? I'm not saying a seconed strike is the answer to most sircumstances. I am saying it potentially has its place. Just like point shooting or any other tool that happens to be in the tool box.
Also a firearms without a safety has probably had more AD's than one with. While in panic mode one could just as easily have their finger on the trigger while drawing from a holster, inturn shooting themselves.
i dont train with a DA pistol. but is there ever a time when one should try second and third strikes ona round to see if it goes bang? in my opinion id say no never. the only time ive ever experienced a round that didnt go bang and second strikes cured the problem is on old surplus rifles that had cosmoline jammed inside the bolt that i never cleaned out before shooting them and the strikes were weak because of that. id say in any situation with a DA or not id just go for the much more likely tap rack then the "please god let it just need a second strike".... how long does a "tap, rack, bang" take?... well its a little bit less time then "second strike, third strike, tap, rack, bang"... i say this because if you going for a second and maybe third strikes on the gun you better make damn sure youll have time to tap rack bang if that very rare occassion a round needs another strike or two magically still dosent occur.
No, no... you are not getting what I'm saying. If they are ON you. As in on top of you. As in physically on top of you. There will be no opportunity what so ever. To do any tap rack and bang. Anybody who has ever been in a fist fight that went to the ground can tell you the same thing. Again, it's not a end all be all solution. But it does have its place. Again, another tool in the tool box sort of thing
if your on the ground with a bad guy fighting and the pistol no longer shoots thank your lucky stars that atleast the simple act of pulling the trigger dosent make it go bang any longer and if a DA pistol will possibly make it go bang where a SA will not then thats a dissadvantage in my eyes. the last thing i want to do is be fighting on the ground for a gun that works.
I'm not sayig at all sit there and pull and pull and pull. But often times, the first strike will reseat/correctly seat the primer and the seconed strike will ignite it. Again, like I said its not a end all be all solution. Just another tool or option
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i saw that Mr. post deleter... 8)
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Lol I did aswell
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i saw that Mr. post deleter... 8)
Yeah, I thought I was in the "M9 Good" section. Then I saw it was in the "moved mechanical safety section" so I deleted my response. Argue away guys. But damn, that white area of preceeding posts is getting rather large. :)
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If it gets down and dirty with any non functioning handgun that weapon becomes a bludgeon or is discarded for a blade and or my teeth, elbows, fists, thick skull, boots, even body weight... imo.
I haven't got the time to be screwing around with a less than effective potential attack.
I don't intend to give up initiative regardless. Keep the hate coming fast and endless from any where you can till your done with the threat.
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i saw that Mr. post deleter... 8)
Yeah, I thought I was in the "M9 Good" section. Then I saw it was in the "moved mechanical safety section" so I deleted my response. Argue away guys. But damn, that white area of preceeding posts is getting rather large. :)
lol right on...and yes it sure is.
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For an autopistol, decock-only is the way to go and no one can convince me otherwise. The safety is just another thing that if added with more "other things" over complicates your weapon unneccessarily. Simple is always better (and usually faster in a fight). Double-action only autos were invented by lawyers, not shooters. Stay away from them. Each trigger pull is as atrocious as having sex with a nun. Oh, and Glocks: safety on the trigger? What FU*KING brilliant human with down syndrome thought that one up? You have got to be kidding me. If you are gonna have a safety it shouldn't be on the trigger. [img]http://www.arrse.co.uk/at
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For an autopistol, decock-only is the way to go and no one can convince me otherwise. The safety is just another thing that if added with more "other things" over complicates your weapon unneccessarily. Simple is always better (and usually faster in a fight). Double-action only autos were invented by lawyers, not shooters. Stay away from them. Each trigger pull is as atrocious as having sex with a nun. Oh, and Glocks: safety on the trigger? What FU*KING brilliant human with down syndrome thought that one up? You have got to be kidding me. If you are gonna have a safety it shouldn't be on the trigger. [img]http://www.arrse.co.uk/at
whats better then a safety that just the normal act of pulling the trigger engages and disengages it for you?... its a safety you never have to mess with but immediatly engages upon removing your finger from the trigger... fucking genious... thats just my opinion though..lol
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whats better then a safety that just the normal act of pulling the trigger engages and disengages it for you?... its a safety you never have to mess with but immediatly engages upon removing your finger from the trigger... fucking genious... thats just my opinion though..lol
Mainly because if something other than your finger (or your finger if unintended) gets in there, the gun will go bang. My 1911 won't fire unless I take the safety off and grip the pistol properly no matter how hard I jam on that trigger. In fact, the trigger itself will break before the gun fires with either the grip safety or the thumb safety engaged.
Nobody's perfect and even the most highly trained individuals can have accidents. If you trust yourself and your gun handling to the point that you're comfortable with a no (manual) safety Glock or similar, then great... I have loved the Glocks I owned, but I sure won't sleep with one under my pillow.
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Maybe your crazy hair will switch the safety off and pull the trigger. :))
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Maybe your crazy hair will switch the safety off and pull the trigger. :))
Hahaha...RD, don't hate bro, but it reminded me of this, and I couldn't resist. :P
http://youtu.be/kecHeY9ZOk4 (http://youtu.be/kecHeY9ZOk4)
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whats better then a safety that just the normal act of pulling the trigger engages and disengages it for you?... its a safety you never have to mess with but immediatly engages upon removing your finger from the trigger... fucking genious... thats just my opinion though..lol
Mainly because if something other than your finger (or your finger if unintended) gets in there, the gun will go bang. My 1911 won't fire unless I take the safety off and grip the pistol properly no matter how hard I jam on that trigger. In fact, the trigger itself will break before the gun fires with either the grip safety or the thumb safety engaged.
Nobody's perfect and even the most highly trained individuals can have accidents. If you trust yourself and your gun handling to the point that you're comfortable with a no (manual) safety Glock or similar, then great... I have loved the Glocks I owned, but I sure won't sleep with one under my pillow.
i dont care what type of gun you have the same amount of human error is in play. some times the safety itself becomes the reason you end up with an accident... a safety is no excuse to be less comfortable with your pistol.
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Again, it's not a end all be all solution. But it does have its place. Again, another tool in the tool box sort of thing
[/quote]
EDIT: but were talking about a situation that you might shoot 1 million rounds and never actually see a round require 2 strikes to go bang unless its a gun problem. the scenario is so rare it shouldnt even be considered in training in my personal opinion. so as far as im concerned when my sidearm goes down. wether it be M9, glock or what ever.. im tap racking to try and fix the problem.
if you think a second strike may fix the problem then you must incorporate the multiple strikes into every malfunction you ever have with a pistol... you must now strike strike tap rack... because you arent going to train to tap rack and then a guys on you and suddenly you rise to the occassion and do something youve never practiced. so once again..its way to rare a problem and scenarion to even consider training for it. it will make you over all less effective. you sacrifice all other situations to make one very rare one better.
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Yes its a very unlikely scenario, on the same not its also highly unlikely you will ever even need to pull your gun. On the off chance, you one day do need to pull your gun the chance that 1 in those next 30 or so rounds is going to fail is most likely 1-1,000,000 aswell. From what I have seen any failure with a modern pistol has about the same likelyhood as the next. This is provided the operator of the weapon does do routine maintence, and replaces parts in a timly manner. Also provided the operator of the weapon is using a know to them quality ammo
And why the hell would I have to incorporate it in every malfunction drill? Just like I'v been saying. Its a specific thing for a specific problem. That being for when the BG is to close to do a tap rack and pull. With the very quick examples I gave earier, all I was getting at is in a typical self defence scenario it's likely you wont have time for a tap rack and pull. In those instances, should you have a failure to fire, a seconed pull would be a reasonable option, and I assume a damn near knee jerk reaction (provided the BG is physically on you) just before going for your knife, or swinging or whatever other option you go with. Once again, I'm not saying pull and pull and pull, and not saying for every scenario. I do indeed force malfuntions, and train for a tap rack and pull. Dont make the mistake that I instead try for a seconed pull. Because that is simply not the case. All I have been saying the whole time is for a specific situation, a situation that I have to assume in most self defence shooting is over 1/3 of the time. A seconed strike potentially has its place. Not everytime, not every scenario. But if the BG in physically on me I will take that extra 1/10th seconed to jerk my finger one last time before going to my knife or hands. Hell its something that could be done as your going for a knife. You are trying to completly discard it as ever a option. In your case with a glock no matter the situation its physically not an option. In my case with a DA auto it is. If its something that by gods good grace might save my ass I'm going to go a head and try it once and hope (very very quickly) that it works. I would far rather do that, than the very terifying option of getting into a knife fight with someone. If/when the unlikely scenario that I need a gun comes up, followed by the even more unlikely scenario that I have a malufunction, I'll be damn glad that if the scenario arises that I at least have the option.
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Just throwin this lil nugget in there...
If I am in a wrestling match with someone the last thing Im gonna do is unholster my weapon if it isnt already out. At a certain distance in many situations it is better to just go with ole' pointy shiny... :))
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oh cmon yall, we all know glocks/ M&P's/xdm's have no safeties
they just put that little trigger thing on there to so they can say it has a safety feature.....
which is why i like them [url=http://www.freesmileys.or
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I've got a P229, DA/SA, just the way I like it. Sure it takes some practice to get good and accurate with it, the first shot that is, but it really is no more practice than me learning to have to pop the safety off a cocked and locked 1911 before firing.
Its what I've trained with, its what I know, and I shoot it well.
I would have to retrain myself completely to go to say a 1911 now. Not say I won't ever, but it would take a lot of undoing muscle memory, or actually adding muscle memory to my draw to pop off a safety.
Plus, now that I'm not used to one, who's to say I won't miss the safety or forget about it, in that split second where I have to draw and fire.
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i dont care what type of gun you have the same amount of human error is in play. some times the safety itself becomes the reason you end up with an accident... a safety is no excuse to be less comfortable with your pistol.
How can a thumb safety on an every day carry pistol cause an accident?
I carry a 1911 every day, cocked and locked. I train with it, and it's second nature (muscle memory) to swipe the safety off as part of my draw stroke. When I switch to pistols without a thumb safety, my thumb still makes the motion regardless. I won't use a pistol that you have to manipulate the safety differently (IE slide mounted safeties that up is hot and down is not, opposite of a 1911 style safety).
I've never had an accidental discharge, and I have yet to have a negligent discharge... The safety has nothing to do with that, it's got to do with me ALWAYS following the 4 rules: #1 All guns are always loaded. #2 Don't let the muzzle cover anything you don't want to kill or destroy. #3 KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL READY TO SHOOT. and #4 Be sure of your target AND what is beyond it.
If you follow the rules all the time, you won't have a problem using a gun with or without a safety. If you do NOT follow the rules, bad things happen.
Implying that the presence of a safety is dangerous is silly. Don't blame the gun or its parts, blame the idiot screwing up and not following the rules of proper firearms handling and safety.
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#1 All guns are always loaded.
So the ar 15 lower can kill all by its self.
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#1 All guns are always loaded.
So the ar 15 lower can kill all by its self.
Ofcourse, guns are evil, diddnt you hear? lol
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#1 All guns are always loaded.
So the ar 15 lower can kill all by its self.
Ofcourse, guns are evil, diddnt you hear? lol
Oh I heard of the mass clubbing with ar 15 lowers in cali.
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A safety on the trigger is no longer a safety. Just like Mich Ultra is no longer beer. Think about it... :-*