Making water safe to drink

[Kentactic]

well ive read a few different opinions. some say boiling water alone can make water more dangerous without first filtering out the nasties because it just releases the chemicals of the nasties. so is it smart to always first filter out the nasties and THEN boil it or will boiling alone do the job in ALL cases? also when i say nasties that can mean invisible things aswell as visible.

[RS762]

Thanks Walker [URL=http://www.smileyvault.co

[JohnyMac]

Great links Walkers!

Here is another one: http://www.monolithic.com/stories/a-practical-life-sustaining-water-filter

These are the folks I bought mine from.

Also, to purify a 55 gallon drum of rain water add 5 oz. of unsented bleach. I use Clorox.

[Kentactic]

Thanks for the replis guys i knew you would have the answers im looking for. the reason im asking this is partly because i plan to go on a 3 day hike out in the wilderness with just my BOB to test it out. i dont plan to carry 3 days of water on me but i do plan to locate one of the few streams in the area. this will be in the mtns... so my next questio is, are there "natural chemicals" found in water sources such as this or am i pretty darn safe from chemicals being its from a stream in the mtns with very few humans around?

[special-k]

I started over 10 years ago (long before ever hearing the word "prepper") gathering the means to purify and filter as much water as possible by many different methods and quantities ranging from small (EDC) to large (base camp/home.)  I have to say that my water treatment capabilities are the strongest part of my preparedness plan.

My most recent addition is some purifier straws  >>  http://store.seychelle.com/Pure_Water_Straw-Pure_Water_Straw_Advanced.html  <<  I have at least one of these with me, or nearby at all times.

The neatest water gadget I have is a Steripen.  It only sterilizes the pathogens, it does nothing for chemical contamination.  I bought the one that uses 4xAA batteries instead of the CR123 batts.  It really pays off if you have the means to recharge NMh batts. by solar power.

[thatGuy]

You're always going to run the risk of heavy metal and ag runoff if you don't filter first.

For years I've used iodine tabs with followed by absorbic acid to get the iodine back out and never had any trouble.

On the otherside of that coin my buddy swears by the 1qt sized clorine tabs. Once he hits the nessisary amount of time he shakes up the bottle and leaves the lid off for a couple of minutes to off gas the clorine.

Faster and lighter than carring fuel for boiling.

[Kentactic]

You're always going to run the risk of heavy metal and ag runoff if you don't filter first.

For years I've used iodine tabs with followed by absorbic acid to get the iodine back out and never had any trouble.

On the otherside of that coin my buddy swears by the 1qt sized clorine tabs. Once he hits the nessisary amount of time he shakes up the bottle and leaves the lid off for a couple of minutes to off gas the clorine.

Faster and lighter than carring fuel for boiling.

Yeah i also have the 1 qt. tablets you speak of but it says right on the bottle:

 "not to be used on a continuous basis"

                   and

"this product has not been shown to inactivate cryptosporidium cysts"

And i dont know what exactly that is so i googled around and found:

"Cryptosporidium is a protozoan organism which causes the parasitic infection, cryptosporidiosis. It exists in either the free-swimming (trophozoite) form or the oocyst (dormant) form. Cryptosporidium parvum is now recognized as a human pathogen which can cause severe diarrheal illness."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptosporidiosis

So after all that im considering the tablets a very last resort.

[thatGuy]

8 days is the limit for iodine if I remember correctly.

I just read the wiki for cryptosporidiosis and unless you have HIV/AIDs then you should be fine. It wouldn't be the first watery shit anyone ever took.

[NOLA556]

It wouldn't be the first watery shit anyone ever took.

I... just....

fuck yea. best response anyone ever gave.... ever.

made my day.  [URL=http://www.smileyvault.co

[sledge]

It wouldn't be the first watery shit anyone ever took.

Man, that sounds like a bad day.  Not to mention those are some noises I don't want to hear.   

[Kentactic]

8 days is the limit for iodine if I remember correctly.

I just read the wiki for cryptosporidiosis and unless you have HIV/AIDs then you should be fine. It wouldn't be the first watery shit anyone ever took.

maybe your immune system keeps you from dying from the bacteria itself but im not so sure you cant die from dehydration from the diarrhea even with an unlimited supply of bubble guts water. also with severe diarrhea your not getting the energy you need from your food im guessing? so now your weak with a sore ass and you cant leave the watering hole or youll die of dehydration... dammit how will i obtain more food now?..... its an extreme scenario yes but with all my years in the medical school of google i think it might be possible and not one id like to enjoy personally.

[thatGuy]

Seriously Ken if you are worrying about dying of runny butt then you need to work on your "harden the fuck up."

I assume much like all the rest of SoCal that this hike will be covered by cell service and ridiculously populated.

And how thorough of a test will this be if you don't get the trots?

I love yah buddy but some risks are worth taking.

[Kentactic]

Seriously Ken if you are worrying about dying of runny butt then you need to work on your "harden the fuck up."

I assume much like all the rest of SoCal that this hike will be covered by cell service and ridiculously populated.

And how thorough of a test will this be if you don't get the trots?

I love yah buddy but some risks are worth taking.

Sorry man i cant dissagree more.... why oh why... would a person knowingly use a water purification method as first choice that may result in serious diarrhea?... that is beyond me. thats like being in a survival situation and stabbing yourself just to test the tourniquet out. harden the fuck up?..REALLY?... thats as ignorant and stubborn as it gets... more like smart the fuck up brother. Not sure where the Cali thing has anything to do with anything but if you must know the location i will be at will be at 8000ft with no known map showing any sort of a trail because its on "wilderness land" and they like to discourage people from going there. the mtn peaks at just under 11000 ft being the second tallest mountain in Southern CA. id be blown away if i saw another human other then the 2 others in my group the entire big fucking whoop three days.

Dont take my current location as any indication of my mindset. your selling yourself short. not that it affects me in any way though.

[thatGuy]

San Jacinto or San Bernardino?

http://www.steripen.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/1/02ac755595468c5da0c8d224bef3c2db/misc/coccidianparastites.pdf

Sure it's on Steripen's web site but it is in fact a scientific paper written on this topic.

And you're right, I shouldn't tell you to harden the fuck up but it sounded better than telling you to carry shit tons of fuel to boil water or to harvest all the fucking dead wood on the mountain for the same purpose...

What do you suppose the odds are of getting cryptosporidiosis? Any reported cases picked up on that mountain?

[Kentactic]

San Jacinto or San Bernardino?

http://www.steripen.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/1/02ac755595468c5da0c8d224bef3c2db/misc/coccidianparastites.pdf

Sure it's on Steripen's web site but it is in fact a scientific paper written on this topic.

And you're right, I shouldn't tell you to harden the fuck up but it sounded better than telling you to carry shit tons of fuel to boil water or to harvest all the fucking dead wood on the mountain for the same purpose...

What do you suppose the odds are of getting cryptosporidiosis? Any reported cases picked up on that mountain?

I cant view those type of links on my computer for what ever reason.

As far as the shit tons of fuel thing goes i dont follow you... i might have to boil water a few times over three days so one small fuel canister will do fine. it weighs mere ounces. If i had to carry multiple canisters because im going to be out there for a long time then you would too being you said yourself the tablets are only safe for around 8 days in a row of use. but i dont want to assume anything here perhaps one should harden up and start ignoring warning labels etc.

I have no clue what the odds are of getting cryptosporidiosis in my area is. I may even be able to just drink directly from the creeks around here with very little chance of getting anything up so high but youll never catch me trying it out.

[thatGuy]

Good point, you'll get anywhere from 5 to 10 liters of water boiled per quarter pound of fuel. Depending on what stove you carry and where you do it at.

That does't include the weight of the stove, the fuel canister or the pot. Making no mention of the time its going to take to boil every drop of water you plan on drinking washing or cooking with first.

Lets say you are carrying a MSR Whisperlite International (which is a fair assumtion seeing as how its been the top selling stove for 30 years) and you are going to go though 2 gallons a day for eating, drinking and washing. Thats going to burn 5.4 oz of fuel so.. 33oz give or take to just make you water cleaner than iodine which shows to be 34-50% effective. That's stove fuel and pot for 3 days at 4lbs. Sure I said "shit tons of fuel" or something to that effect but when you got to carry ever gram it will add up.

Bleach Tabs weigh grams.

Iodine weights ounces.

A SteriPen weights 5.4oz and is a sure bet.

So San Jacinto or San Bernardino?

[special-k]

...A SteriPen weights 5.4oz and is a sure bet.

I have a Steripen and love it.....so far.

However, I've been checking out some of the current reviews on it.  It seems that during prolonged excursions into the field (3-5 days or so), they start to show electronic problems...due to moisture...go f'n figure!  I have not seen this problem with mine, but it has never been through a torture test.  Once the Steripen gets back to civilization and has had a chance to thoroughly dry out (2-3 days) it will continue normal functioning. 

Form what I've gathered, the problem is a 'catch-22.'  Some people, with the best intentions, store their Steripen in a ziplock bag between uses during their outing.  While this does protect from rain and submersion, it also creates a sauna for the electronics in the Steripen.  My best advice if you have one, is to dry it the best you can before replacing the cap/bulb protector, and store it in the neoprene case provided...AND BRING BACK-UP CHEMICAL PURIFICATION. Only store it in a ziplock bag if rain or submersion is immanent.  In the case of accidental submersion...it's screwed.

[Kentactic]

Good point, you'll get anywhere from 5 to 10 liters of water boiled per quarter pound of fuel. Depending on what stove you carry and where you do it at.

That does't include the weight of the stove, the fuel canister or the pot. Making no mention of the time its going to take to boil every drop of water you plan on drinking washing or cooking with first.

Lets say you are carrying a MSR Whisperlite International (which is a fair assumtion seeing as how its been the top selling stove for 30 years) and you are going to go though 2 gallons a day for eating, drinking and washing. Thats going to burn 5.4 oz of fuel so.. 33oz give or take to just make you water cleaner than iodine which shows to be 34-50% effective. That's stove fuel and pot for 3 days at 4lbs. Sure I said "shit tons of fuel" or something to that effect but when you got to carry ever gram it will add up.

Bleach Tabs weigh grams.

Iodine weights ounces.

A SteriPen weights 5.4oz and is a sure bet.

So San Jacinto or San Bernardino?

This is the burner ill be using, it weighs 3 ounces.

http://www.backcountry.com/msr-pocket-rocket-stove?CMP_SKU=CAS0368&MER=0406&CMP_ID=GAN_GPLA&003=8219600&010=CAS0368-CAN-ONSI&mr:trackingCode=F902FEA3-41D1-DF11-A880-001B2163195C&mr:referralID=NA&origin=pla&mr:adType=pla

This is the Pot i will be using. its already in the kit for many reasons so its not even fair to factor it in as any sort of weight. every bag should have a metal container of some kind so that weights not to be factored.

http://stores.thepathfinderschoolllc.com/-strse-416/The-NEW-Pathfinder-32oz./Detail.bok

In your calculations of fuel consumption how long do you have the water up to a boil?

Im not sure where you got 4lbs... i see more like 1lb max (fuel canister+Burner). and again according to what youve said you also will be required to start boiling water after 8 days so in an extended stay it will be in your kit aswell.

San Jacinto mtns... I guess ill see you up there?

Let me add that the burner does more then boil water... it can heat up food aswell... unless you plan to eat cold beans the whole time or have all food in MRE's with heating elements then you need fire aswell... Your choices are fuel canisters and burner or wood from nature... those two options are also available for boiling water.

[thatGuy]

In your calculations of fuel consumption how long do you have the water up to a boil?

I used the published stats on how much water per 100 grams of fuel the stove will boil, you can find all that info at REI's webpage. Your pocket rocket will boil 6.6 liters of water per 100 grams of fuel. (Turns out that their numbers are next to useless. They conduct the test at +30' elevation with water and room temp at 70 degrees f.) My calculations were for my whole kit, stove, pot and fuel. I didn't count the weight of a fuel bottle as I figured that would make up for the possable difference in stove weight from yours to mine.

San Jacinto mtns... I guess ill see you up there?

Not for nothing, I heard they got nasty bugs in the water up there! 

No but really, take everything I've said and throw it away. I don't know shit about shit. Grab you 8oz can of fuel and your pocket rocket and climb up that mountain. You'll be fine.  [URL=http://www.smileyvault.co

Maybe when you come back you won't be so inclined to answer your own questions.

[NOLA556]

wait so... what are you guys even arguing about? lol

IMHO all points made were valid. I personally don't own a camp stove or fuel canisters and while I don't have anything against the idea, it's not at the top of my to-do list. I can make fire and that's all I need to boil water and/or cook food.

I also wonder why nobody's brought up the SODIS method. (TG you were the one who introduced me to that).

my bug out plan is flawed just like everyone elses. no one has ALL their bases covered because you'd need an RV for that. IMO your kit should be tailored to your specific plan. as I've stated many times before, my plan relies fully on my ability to make it to my BOL. that's my fatal flaw. once there I'll have all the clean water and food that I can handle, but it's the journey that will be the test.

all that being said, I don't see what you guys are arguing about.

Ken, to put this argument to rest, you'll need to do some research and find out exactly what is in the water at your BOL and plan accordingly. I know the BOB is only meant to be a 72hr kit, but you can't just prep for 72hrs and then not know what you're in for once you reach your destination. who knows, the water up on that mountain may be fucking pristine but you won't know until you dig up the info.

[Kentactic]

It seems as though were arguing about wether or not to ever consider using fire for anything. For me the fuel and burner will ONLY be used within ROL because i cant legally take wood from the forest and burn it. but post SHTF i doubt the burner would even come with me. if it did once it runs out i could care less as id be building wood fires. I feel as though im litterally defending the use of fire in a survival scenario at this point and its kind of ridiculous in my opinion. Tablets to make water safe have their place and since they are so light i will keep a bottle in my kit but they expire within 6-12 months once the seals broken depenbding on how often the bottles opened and they arent my preffered method of water purification at this time because A) boiling works better and is a resource that wont run out and B) The tablets arent even safe for long term use.

My origonal question was wether or not boiling water will make water safe in all cases not wether or not to risk using chlorine tablets with the full knowledge that it will not make water safe in all cases.

At this point i just regret even posting the thread and will make note and take my serious survival questions elsewhere.

-Kenny

[Kentactic]

Ill try to save the thread with some sort of helpful info.

Collecting and boiling water

[thatGuy]

That was a survival question

Dude I was thinking about you going backpacking for 3 days on a mountain that no doubt had a "no open fires" restriction.

You saw the stove I made for burning wood, all I want it to do is boil water when and where I have local fuel available which in ROL is turning out to be less and less places.

I was trying to express that without native fuel boiling all your water is a none starter.

[Kentactic]

That was a survival question

Dude I was thinking about you going backpacking for 3 days on a mountain that no doubt had a "no open fires" restriction.

You saw the stove I made for burning wood, all I want it to do is boil water when and where I have local fuel available which in ROL is turning out to be less and less places.

I was trying to express that without native fuel boiling all your water is a none starter.

The BOB is technically a 72 hour pack in theory but it needs to be setup in such a way that it can sustain you (perhaps not as comfortably as the first 3 days were) for much longer periods of time. thats why things like snares, large knife for wood processing, and plenty of .22lr ammo is incorporated in my pack. all of those things will be essentially useless in my 3 days stay but will be very important in a longer stay post SHTF.

But even in my 3 day pre SHTF outings i will still be using boiling water as my primary method of water purification for one for practice and two because its superior in lack of health risks compared to tablets.

[Kentactic]

Another great video by our friend Dave on the topic...

Water Purification Techniques