Post Bundy Drama Thoughts

[JohnyMac]

I would like to first state - I OVER THINK THINGS! Some of the folks on the forum are affected by a similar affliction but I digress. 

With that all said, I have been mulling over the Bundy drama this past week.

IMO there were two factions that came to the aid of the Bundy family. One faction was a supportive nonviolent faction. The other was a supportive violent faction. Both groups I consider Patriots.

Supportive nonviolent:
This group of people wanted to be on site to support the Bundy's position in a "Martin Luther King" version of solidarity. For the most part, they came unarmed with the exception of posters and placards.

Supportive violent:
This group of people came armed and were spoiling for a fight. It almost seemed that they were wishing for another shot to "be heard around the world."  These folks I consider to be the ying of the Occupy Wall Street folks yang. Like OWS, they wanted to start a civil war of sorts... Let's call it an American Spring.

What I am overthinking and would appreciate your opinion (s): Which group do you want to align yourself with? Some more questions I am asking myself: Do I want civil war? If we have a civil war, what form of government will replace it? If we have a civil war, will this action play into the current administrations hands? 

My last question bouncing around by gray matter is: What would have had more play, a shoot-out between the Feds and the Patriots with weapons or a bunch of unarmed Bundy supporters who get beaten, Tasered, thrown into jail or at worse, shot?

Again, I over think things. 

[Kentactic]

The first group getting beat up only brings more of the second group, the guys with guns. Which is a good thing. Whether the guns are used or not their presence is ALWAYS a good thing.

[APX808]

I think a big mistake they made is not to set up official press and comm channels.
That leads to a lot of speculation and fear mongering and if things went wrong there is no proof of what really happened.

[Kentactic]

I think a big mistake they made is not to set up official press and comm channels.
That leads to a lot of speculation and fear mongering and if things went wrong there is no proof of what really happened.

http://www.instantcustomer.com/go/109934

http://www.bundyranch.blogspot.com/?m=1

[APX808]

I think a big mistake they made is not to set up official press and comm channels.
That leads to a lot of speculation and fear mongering and if things went wrong there is no proof of what really happened.

http://www.instantcustomer.com/go/109934

http://www.bundyranch.blogspot.com/?m=1

That appears today that is a week after the event, a good comm channel should be working since day 1, specially when people was concentrated in the spot

[Kentactic]

For the record and to be respectful of the militia/armed men at the ranch. None of them really WANT to fire their weapons. The initial "posture" of the militia was sidearm only, specifically to show that they did not aim for a gunfight. To be perfectly honest I was annoyed by this while it was in effect. The agents weren't in sidearm only posture so why the fuck should we be... after a couple days that posture dissolved with the Saturday situation where the sheriff came to talk to bundy publicly. Since then its been full retard all around.

[Kentactic]

I think a big mistake they made is not to set up official press and comm channels.
That leads to a lot of speculation and fear mongering and if things went wrong there is no proof of what really happened.

http://www.instantcustomer.com/go/109934

http://www.bundyranch.blogspot.com/?m=1

That appears today that is a week after the event, a good comm channel should be working since day 1, specially when people was concentrated in the spot

Its been in place for a while. Its just not as fun as the alternative media fear mongering so nobody really spreads the word about it.

[APX808]

I think a big mistake they made is not to set up official press and comm channels.
That leads to a lot of speculation and fear mongering and if things went wrong there is no proof of what really happened.

http://www.instantcustomer.com/go/109934

http://www.bundyranch.blogspot.com/?m=1

That appears today that is a week after the event, a good comm channel should be working since day 1, specially when people was concentrated in the spot

Its been in place for a while. Its just not as fun as the alternative media fear mongering so nobody really spreads the word about it.

I'm pretty sure I asked for someone reporting in real time in the other thread and never got a response, even when you were already there, so if the channel already existed it was the same as nothing as no one knew it existed.

[Kentactic]

I think a big mistake they made is not to set up official press and comm channels.
That leads to a lot of speculation and fear mongering and if things went wrong there is no proof of what really happened.

http://www.instantcustomer.com/go/109934

http://www.bundyranch.blogspot.com/?m=1

That appears today that is a week after the event, a good comm channel should be working since day 1, specially when people was concentrated in the spot

Its been in place for a while. Its just not as fun as the alternative media fear mongering so nobody really spreads the word about it.

I'm pretty sure I asked for someone reporting in real time in the other thread and never got a response, even when you were already there, so if the channel already existed it was the same as nothing as no one knew it existed.

Theres no question the comms suck ASS all the way around.

[Kentactic]

Ill be writing up ways I think will help to avoid these comms issues.

[JohnyMac]

Please gents,  I wasn't there just observing from 2,000 miles away.

O-Kay coms were poor...I think we can all agree to that. Actually, poor all around.

My question (s) is/are...were people there more interested in having a shoot-out vs. walking in MLK's footsteps? I don't know as I was not there.

I hope as I armchair quarterback this event, someone is writing SOP's (Standard Operating Procedures) for future events?

An example of a SOP by title would be:

1) Logistics
    Latrine
    Food
    Signing in protesters
    Medical
    LP/OP
    Resupplies
    Etc.
2) Communications
    Coms amongst protesters
    Coms to other supporters around the country
    Coms for the press
    Etc.
3) Firearms
    No firearms will be displayed unless...
    The Fed's show firearms
     - Hand gun for handgun
     - Rifle for rifle
     - Etc
4) The plan
    ?
5) Debriefing post event
    ?

Again I am OVER THINKING THIS.

I just don't want to feed the current administrations propaganda.

   

[Kentactic]

Jmac you aren't over thinking it at all.

If you can find a complete video of the 9am-10am press meet with the sheriff and Cliven Bundy on saturday, you will have your answer about where the crowds mind was regarding force or passive protesting.

A little hint, the protesters would always put theirs fists ln the air for the "fuck ya, power" symbol when they saw militia men.

[crudos]

Protestors should always do everything to keep a protest peaceful, even if the other side provokes violence. A gun battle does nothing, except create a lot of widows on both sides, not to mention gives the side with the power (government) the excuse to exercise a full-bore nation-wide roundup of those who it deems enemies of the state.

I would have no problem with open-carry of sidearms, but escalating to full battle-rattle militias was a bad idea, and lucky it didn't lead to a massive escalation of violence in a very short time. There is a time and place, this event was not it.

[Kentactic]

Protestors should always do everything to keep a protest peaceful, even if the other side provokes violence. A gun battle does nothing, except create a lot of widows on both sides, not to mention gives the side with the power (government) the excuse to exercise a full-bore nation-wide roundup of those who it deems enemies of the state.

I would have no problem with open-carry of sidearms, but escalating to full battle-rattle militias was a bad idea, and lucky it didn't lead to a massive escalation of violence in a very short time. There is a time and place, this event was not it.

If not here then where? If not now then when? There isnt enough reason to stand up already? You're still looking for a reason to get serious?  The event isnt important. Making progress for freedom is. The fact that men were in full battle rattle is what kept the protesters safe. You have NO rights if you dont have and exercise your 2nd constantly. The feds were willing to talk because the protesters had guys with big guns on their side. God only knows what they would have done without them there.

[Grudgie]

It's just a case of chess or checkers. Do we blindly follow virtue and moral compass with guns loaded or do we play PR games and puppeteer the movement from the back 'means justifying the ends' style? It seems like every revolution has both arguments. I don't know what the right course of action is but I do know that both sides of the argument should be united. We both want the same thing in the end right? Freedom. Condemning one side or the other will only give the government more fuel to squash us. I'm looking at you Glenn Beck. Glenn Beck is just totally blowing this thing out of proportion Jmac. He is calling for total nonviolence. While that is a valid tactic, I will be more inclined to listen to him when he stops surrounding himself and his family with armed guards.

 I believe not all violence is the same. Only the initiation of violence is immoral. Reacting to that violence with equal force is perfectly valid. The government by definition is the initiation of violence and  protesters like Kentactic were showing up with arms to PROTECT Cliven Bundy from violence. Not start shit. No shots were fired. I guess there will always be bad apples in a bunch but lets not forget who the real aggressors are here.

I am not calling for armed revolution. I don't think it could succeed and we are no where near prepared or organized enough to see a violent revolution through. Give this wildfire called government a few more decades and then we might could pull it off. Even then, even if we overthrew a tyrannical government, what would we replace it with? Another government? If the brightest minds of the enlightenment couldn't come up with a way to keep a governmet in check I don't know who will.

Maby we will have intelligent robots as rulers in the next few decades.

[crudos]

Protestors should always do everything to keep a protest peaceful, even if the other side provokes violence. A gun battle does nothing, except create a lot of widows on both sides, not to mention gives the side with the power (government) the excuse to exercise a full-bore nation-wide roundup of those who it deems enemies of the state.

I would have no problem with open-carry of sidearms, but escalating to full battle-rattle militias was a bad idea, and lucky it didn't lead to a massive escalation of violence in a very short time. There is a time and place, this event was not it.

If not here then where? If not now then when? There isnt enough reason to stand up already? You're still looking for a reason to get serious?  The event isnt important. Making progress for freedom is. The fact that men were in full battle rattle is what kept the protesters safe. You have NO rights if you dont have and exercise your 2nd constantly. The feds were willing to talk because the protesters had guys with big guns on their side. God only knows what they would have done without them there.

From what I've seen this was not the event/situation that everyone is chomping at the bit for.  Although there seemed enough people trying their level best to make it so. Pointing my fingers at Alex Jones, Beck, and others so-called voices of the common man. The Occupy movement succeeded for many months without the need for 2nd Amendment solutions. Where will most of the Bundy supporters be in a few weeks? Back safe and sound lapping up whatever the media tells them to. Not saying that will be you Ken, but being realistic, this will mostly be forgotten in a month or two. What we can learn from Occupy is sustainability and organization, which I don't see coming from the Bundy event. And while Occupy may not be the force it was, at the moment, the efforts at grassroots organization are still very apparent is you look closely.

[Kentactic]

Protestors should always do everything to keep a protest peaceful, even if the other side provokes violence. A gun battle does nothing, except create a lot of widows on both sides, not to mention gives the side with the power (government) the excuse to exercise a full-bore nation-wide roundup of those who it deems enemies of the state.

I would have no problem with open-carry of sidearms, but escalating to full battle-rattle militias was a bad idea, and lucky it didn't lead to a massive escalation of violence in a very short time. There is a time and place, this event was not it.

If not here then where? If not now then when? There isnt enough reason to stand up already? You're still looking for a reason to get serious?  The event isnt important. Making progress for freedom is. The fact that men were in full battle rattle is what kept the protesters safe. You have NO rights if you dont have and exercise your 2nd constantly. The feds were willing to talk because the protesters had guys with big guns on their side. God only knows what they would have done without them there.

From what I've seen this was not the event/situation that everyone is chomping at the bit for.  Although there seemed enough people trying their level best to make it so. Pointing my fingers at Alex Jones, Beck, and others so-called voices of the common man. The Occupy movement succeeded for many months without the need for 2nd Amendment solutions. Where will most of the Bundy supporters be in a few weeks? Back safe and sound lapping up whatever the media tells them to. Not saying that will be you Ken, but being realistic, this will mostly be forgotten in a month or two. What we can learn from Occupy is sustainability and organization, which I don't see coming from the Bundy event. And while Occupy may not be the force it was, at the moment, the efforts at grassroots organization are still very apparent is you look closely.

I agree with basically all you wrote here. However this event was meant to happen. I know I needed this practice run badly. It was the best damn 4 day course I could get for $150 in gas.

As far as occupy goes, I really don't even see that as an organized movement or a real power to be reckoned with. They do get good numbers but nobody cares to take them seriously in the government because they have no guns.They are no physical threat to anyone.

"Speak softly and carry a big stick" is the approach I feel works best.

 The Occupy movement uses:

 "scream at the top of your lungs and carry a camera for others with cameras to come scream at the top of their lungs".

A small handful of men approximately 50 with guns, managed to get hundreds of feds with the power of the entire US government behind them, to close up and leave. Occupy has never made the government blink (that I know of) and they've numbered in the tens of thousands at certain sites.

[gapatriot]

Kenny you earned your III brother

[Kentactic]

Kenny you earned your III brother

Thanks brother

[JohnyMac]

I totally agree with GAP's comment. "Kenny you earned your III brother."

I don't know about Beck or Jones I just want to ask a lot of questions. I guess I want to be supporting the right side when the next event happens.

I don't want to support a bunch of whinny occupy folks that rape women in tents and crap on police cars nor do I want to support a bunch of thugs who just want to try out their "bang bang's" and new armor. I want to support people that have a plan.

MrsMac and I have been having long discussions about this (I think she is just humoring me) and the best solution we can come up with is what Ken wrote earlier, "Speak softly and carry a big stick" is the approach I feel works best" along with a solid plan that continues to evolve and improve post each event.

Personally, I have no problem with protesters / supporters with their primary hanging from their backs and a secondary in a holster. It is when the long gun is held at "port arms" or in a threatening manner during an event, for no reason, that makes the hair on the back of my neck stand out. Those are the images that I am left with after the media makes their report. That includes ABC, Beck, CBS, Fox, Jones, NBC, etc. Each has their own reason from frightening the "low information crowd" to people just wanting to increase their influence in the eyes of "their" viewers.

Hey! Did I see Yeager on camera there? (Case in point)

[thatGuy]

Kenny you earned your III brother

yeah he did.

'if not here, then were,' exactly how I feel about it too.

[crudos]

I don't know about Beck or Jones I just want to ask a lot of questions. I guess I want to be supporting the right side when the next event happens.

And that's the issue, it's not always clear which side is the right one. Guess if one automatically assumes the government is always the bad guy in any given situation, then anyone opposing them must be the good guys, that would explain the Bundy event. Are people equally concerned about TransCanada (a Canadian company) trying to use Eminent Domain to take land from US citizens for the Keystone XL Pipeline project? Where's Yeager and company on that? While I think many forthright and upstanding people (including Ken) came to support this effort, not sure it was the defining moment everyone was hoping/salivating for.

Link below for the topic about the Keystone XL Pipeline….

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/18/us/transcanada-in-eminent-domain-fight-over-pipeline.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Butthurt warning….

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As one that doesn't follow the party line in much of anything in life, I get the feeling that CB is not the sharpest tool in the toolbox. Not saying he is a bad person, but from what I've seen of him speaking, I'm not that impressed. Sorry in advance for the butthurt. Also have no sympathy for BLM idiots, just saying...

 

[JohnyMac]

Crudos, Cliven Bundy is a poor public speaker - No doubt. It's not bad...It's not good...It's just a fact.

He has been having a difficult time expressing his position during interviews which is too bad because I like the guy. What someone needs to do is have a written outline for him to follow. But what do I know.

[crudos]

I'm not expecting a polished public speaker or anything. Maybe he ought to spend some of that money he didn't pay for grazing rights on public land, and hire a publicist or something. 

[Kentactic]

Keep in mind that if nobody is doing a job that you feel needs to be done then you are the best man for the job whether you suck or not. Somebody is better then nobody. Even in the militia side, a pulse is good enough. "If you're hearing this transmission you are the resistance".