Author Topic: How to improve violence of action?  (Read 1785 times)

Offline APX808

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How to improve violence of action?
« on: December 27, 2012, 04:27:22 PM »
Hey guys,

I have a question for you, maybe the ones who have been in the military or something can give me a tip.
How could you improve your aggressiveness?

As civilians we are thought to deescalate and avoid conflict, and I feel that play against us, because maybe you take too
long to decide is time for a violent action, or when you are in a violent situation, your "rational and civilized" mind holds you down.

I noticed that when sparring on my krav maga classes, some days I'm pumped and I want to destroy and its great, but
some other days, I'm tired or my mind is worried about some other shit and I don't have the rage or motivation and my
performance isn't as good. Besides all formal self defense schools teach you that fucking hit and run mentality that I hate.

Do you have any tips on how to improve the violence of action?  How to explode? Has the military given you any tool to work that?

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Re: How to improve violence of action?
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2012, 11:01:26 PM »
Or something category here.
 
Direct answer, understand what the bad guys are capable of. Research it. Roll it around in the gray matter, look at it with the disgust it deserves, you can't overdo the disgust part it helps you be the good guy. Always strive to be the good guy, never let it go. When you get the hatred of the evil and it's methods clear in your head and can turn the rage against it on and off at will like a light switch...

For a good write up of the mechanics. http://mountainguerrilla.wordpress.com/2012/12/18/a-brief-discussion-on-the-nature-of-real-violence-and-combatives/

Add an understanding and recognition of real chaos and violence, riots, animal attacks, car wrecks, assassinations gone bad...     vs      high school slap fests, mma, boxing, karate, krav, kung foo, all hollywood movies...

You will know when you are there grasshopper.

Offline Reaver

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Re: How to improve violence of action?
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2012, 11:21:51 PM »
 [URL=http://www.smileyvault.co Give me a few days. I will draw something up for you.

You are stepping into my category now. The older guys of L&L and maybe the early days of SP I did a few topics and articles on Violence of Action.

Try a search they may still be around.

Like I said give me a few days & ill draw something up. Just got off work. And probably won't have a day off till Monday.
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Offline APX808

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Re: How to improve violence of action?
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2012, 08:26:32 AM »
Hey guys, thanks for the reply, I'm looking forward for your post Reaver, I think this topic suits you like a glove :)

I'm a follower of John Mosby's blog,  I think is one of the best blogs there is, and that post you mention Colombo was what got me thinking about this.

I searched about violence of action Reaver, but I only found it mentioned as a key to win in ambushes, nothing resembling what you mention...
Fuck L&L and not sharing the DB backup :(

When I read "On Killing" by Grossman I saw he mentions the military changed drastically the way they trained the soldiers after WWII in order to improve the kills/shots ratio, for instance shooting at human figures instead of bulleyes or screaming "kil kil kill" as motto for whatever you're doing :D

As you mention Colombo, thinking about how your enemy deserves it, or how he could fuck you up if you gave him the opportunity for sure helps, but I think that affects you on a rational level, and we know that the purpose of training is to embed responses on your unconscious, because what you rationalize isn't really the way you'll respond when a stressful situation arises.

I haven't been in a real fight since highschool, but I remember once I almost staved a friend with a kabar when he tried to scare me in the woods, or many times I waked up startled at night and graved my Glock and scanned the room without even thinking about it, so that gives me some peace of mind as I know at least I wont be paralyzed.

And finally, let me use this post to wish you a happy new year guys


Offline Reaver

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Re: How to improve violence of action?
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2012, 10:47:34 AM »
Violence of action turns out to be a pretty difficult subject to break down molecularly.

Violence of action is really something that you kind of just have. The only way I can really imagine training to improve Violence of action is involving it in training that you Should already be doing.

What I mean by that is.

Side rant as well as a little speech.
I get really tired of seeing these movies and youtube video's and " Training " video's where all that happens is some little clicker lets them know the timer is going off. Or someone yells " Target " Then these dudes/dudets just engage a steel target from the standing with their perfect little Chris Costa form.

In reality. What happens is. They end up like James Yeager in the ditch being a little coward. Not that I or you shouldn't go to a ditch, but when another truck member has to rescue your bleeding out buddy. Your doing something wrong. Your not controlling the fight. Your losing the fight. In that ambush the enemy has all the VOA that is why Yeager was hiding out in a hole and not pinned up against his car fighting back.

A good way to Improve VOA is to actually train like you need it. Not like the evil steel target is glaring at you.
Go on a patrol, and have someone else engage with one or two rounds. ( Unknown times and location of course ) then engage the hell out of your set of targets. This way it appears that you are the one being engaged. Train as you would fight. Do not stand there in your Chris Costa form engaging because when a fucking bullet comes past your head. Your not going to know where the hell it came from and your damn sure no going to stand there like a B/A
Your going to hit the deck and probably engage What seems to be the target area.
 
The key to Violence of Action is knowing that you have the heavier equipment. What I mean by that is. YOU have to convince the enemy that you have the bigger and better equipment.  They have to KNOW without a doubt that they made a big ass mistake. Even if they didn't. Even if they have the upper hand. The mind is a very easy to manipulate fragile lump of goop.


Your actions on contact must be swift and dedicated. Make as if you were engaging even if you are retreating. (tactical disbursement)
The end goal is to kill the enemy. So Kill the enemy. No need to beat around the bush & fuck around. Do it before your lump of goop starts to process it. If your Goop starts to process it. You'll hesitate. If you hesitate your dead. That's all there is to it.

As for improving. The only way I can think of improving is different means of training. Quick reactionary training.

Good luck.

Remember, Speak soft. Carry a big stick.
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Alex1992

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Re: How to improve violence of action?
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2012, 11:13:38 AM »
Thats a very good point Reaver  [URL=http://www.smileyvault.co theres an old saying that General Patton said, " No man had won a war by dying for his country, he'd won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his."

Offline thatGirl

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Re: How to improve violence of action?
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2012, 04:49:45 PM »
Great points Reaver, but I cringed when you suggested a live fire exercise, even as watered down as you're talking.  You're right, it's about retraining your natural inclinations and reflexes to accomplish an objective as fast as possible, without thinking about it.  The only way to properly do this is to engage some element of fear, get your fight or flight mode kicked on so you imprint these reflexes to engage under the right set of physiological cues-- that way your break-and-rake doesn't turn into a stop-and-flop.   

This may be a dumb suggestion, but how about training by engaging in non-lethal VOA using paintball guns.  It seems like getting a big group of like minded people together to play a heavily strategic version of paintball capture the flag might be helpful.  I used to play with some guys that would break out ghillie suits and war paint, you never knew if they were sneaking up for a surprise attack, or getting settled in sweet spot to pick people off from sniper position.  If you or your buddies have land to play on, you could set up a little shanty town with cover objects, or play in the forest.  You may want to engage along the route(s) to your BOL if you have one to get a sense of what's available for cover and items to cache along the way.   

Some of you are probably thinking that paintballs don't insight enough fear for this to work, in which case I suggest you have a friend light you up with a high quality marker at close range in your crotchular region and see if you develop a flinch.  Even if you secure your packages, thigh flesh is sensitive...  :P 
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Offline APX808

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Re: How to improve violence of action?
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2012, 08:31:48 PM »
A long time ago I used to play paintball, and it fucking hurts to be shot in full auto at 10 yards, at closer distances you would like to rip the shooter's head off and will carry the marks for the rest of the week. The problem with paintball is that it confuses your mind about that is cover and what is concealment.
But is a nice tool.

Maybe the key to improve VOA is "fake it till you make it"

Offline Reaver

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Re: How to improve violence of action?
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2012, 11:03:46 PM »
A long time ago I used to play paintball, and it fucking hurts to be shot in full auto at 10 yards, at closer distances you would like to rip the shooter's head off and will carry the marks for the rest of the week. The problem with paintball is that it confuses your mind about that is cover and what is concealment.
But is a nice tool.

Maybe the key to improve VOA is "fake it till you make it"

I think that I may have been miss understood. I didn't mean live fire exercise as in shooting at someone or even past them. I just meant that the reaction to a gun shot is going to be more realistic than the reaction to a beeper or " Target "


When this ammo scare dies down I'm going to start putting out some quality video's I know I have idea that will step out from the rest & make me some real money.  :)) 'Merica
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Offline thatGirl

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Re: How to improve violence of action?
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2012, 03:38:51 AM »
I misunderstood you Reaver, thanks for clarifying.  I was going to suggest that you and I go train together, I'd be the person that fires a couple warning shots passed your ear... maybe shoot a cigarette out your mouth! :))

And yes, APX, getting hit with paintballs at less than 10m does make you want to rip some motherfucking heads off.  The first time I ever played, some douche-nozzle lit me up like a christmas tree from about 6m away.  I had at least 10 huge, nasty welts on my legs and stomach >:(

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hjmoosejaw

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Re: How to improve violence of action?
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2012, 10:12:32 AM »
I dug this up, I watched it some time back. This woman has got some good tips here, talking about "force on force" training with Airsoft guns. she has bruises and welts all over her. During the video, she throws in a few pics and video.

 

Offline Kentactic

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Re: How to improve violence of action?
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2012, 10:48:41 AM »
How about worrying about taking action when you shouldnt. We all get so mind fucked over our ability to act when needed. Its important to make sure its the right time. Dont get blinded by efforts to make sure your a badass when you think you should be. Im more aware and pay more attention to when not to get violent. And if some one says judged by 12 then carried by 6 Then youll be showing your ignorance. Thats just another ignorant gun owners justification of his lack of training. Your bassically saying youve got a gun and no brains so watch out. Ive got news for ya, everyone has guns. If you cant use your correctly your at no advantage.

Sorry for the side rant. Point im trying to make is lets not be so gunhoe to be badasses and realize knowing when not to pull the trigger is just as important.

@ APX, If you are waking up and drawing a gun. Ask yourself, what would you have done if you actually saw a shadow of what you thought was a man standing in your room? Would you just start shooting? What if you then turn the lights on or get a light on him and its the coat you hung on the door before you went to sleep?

It seems like a trend for gun owners to always obsess over being the tough guy who kills without flinching. Anyone can blank their mind and pull the trigger. All that takes is a stupid person who dosent understand what they are doing. Now yes some people dont have it in them to kill, but those people do understand what it means to kill and simply cant. Id rather be that guy then the idiot who just pulls triggers at shadows.

Ideally we understand the seriousness of killing, are capable of doing so when needed, but also are capable of controlling it. If were syking ourselves out "i think i can, i think i can" then i doubt youll hold back if needed. Youll have it already set in your mind that today is your day to "shine" and not see any of the factors that say it is not the day to start killing.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 01:20:19 PM by Kentactic »
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Offline Reaver

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Re: How to improve violence of action?
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2012, 02:47:42 PM »
Lol, your funny Kenny. I bet you've actually been shot at before huh?

There is no ignorance in my statement of judged by 12 than carried by 6. Your being a californian  :o  ;D and taking it way out of context.

Judged by 12 than carried by 6 does not mean I or anyone else under that philosophy is just going to blast everyone over some suspicious feeling. Or creepy shadow.
 It simply means that politics go out the window when stupid shit happens. If someone pulls a knife on me, I'm not going to wait till he/she gets within 21 feet or some gay shit ( Reasonable threat is the law I believe. But don't quote ) to put that ass down.

Or an even better example. If a female pulls a knife or a gun or a bat. ect. I'm not going to not engage because she's a female. That's fucking stupid she is still a threat to your life, limb, eyesight. As well as anyone within the surrounding area. Who's to say she doesn't just womp the person next to her or behind her. Or just closer to her than you or I?

One of my teachers in my few SD classes  Said and I quote " As long as you have reason to believe that bodily fluids will be spilt, your in the clear "
And this man teaches D security Classes and G Armed Security Classes as well as.

http://www.s2institute.com/
Be realistic. Rape, Bloodshed are the keys here.


Have a good-in guys. I'm out till 2013...... Ha yeah right. See you guys in a few hours.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 03:22:33 AM by Reaver »
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Offline APX808

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Re: How to improve violence of action?
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2012, 02:59:39 PM »
My original idea was to discuss VOA in hand to hand combat, you don't need much VOA to pull a trigger, but I think you need a lot to stomp someone's head when its lying on the floor.

The point is not how to become a sociopath and kill everything but how to let go moral and rationale shit away once you decided that violence is the solution to the problem you are facing.

@kentactic, maybe it was better to keep my gun in a safe, if something surprises me I can turn on the light, unlock the safe and that way I'll have the time to be completely sure I'm not shooting my coat. That "what if you shoot a coat?" sounds like an anti-gun argument to me.


Offline Kentactic

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Re: How to improve violence of action?
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2012, 03:02:19 PM »
Quote modified to comply with standards. ~ s-k

Lol, your funny Kenny. I bet you've actually been shot at before huh?

There is no ignorance in my statement of judged by 12 than carried by 6. Your being a californian  :o  ;D and taking it way out of context.

Judged by 12 than carried by 6 does not mean I or anyone else under that philosophy is just going to blast everyone over some suspicious feeling. Or creepy shadow.
 It simply means that politics go out the window when stupid shit happens. If someone pulls a knife on me, I'm not going to wait till he/she gets within 21 feet or some gay shit ( Reasonable threat is the law I believe. But don't quote ) to put that ass down.

Or an even better example. If a female pulls a knife or a gun or a bat. ect. I'm not going to not engage because she's a female. That's fucking stupid she is still a threat to your life, limb, eyesight. As well as anyone within the surrounding area. Who's to say she doesn't just womp the person next to her or behind her. Or just closer to her than you or I?

One of my teachers in my few SD classes  Said and I quote " As long as you have reason to believe that bodily fluids will be spilt, your in the clear "
And this man teaches D security Classes and G Armed Security Classes as well as.

http://www.s2institute.com/
Be realistic. Rape, Bloodshed are the keys here.


Have a good-in guys. I'm out till 2013...... Ha yeah right. See you guys in a few hours.


First of all i didnt know that "judged by 12 or carried by 6" was your creation or i would have spoken directly to you Reaver.

With all that said. Although i can only speak for CA Laws i think they are more restrictive then most. But in any case where i find myself legally holding a firearm the law does not require me to ever allow serious threat of bodily injury without taking action. Under no circumstances would i be required to say "fuck the law i need to defend myself". So with that said, if you do find yourself saying that then its quite possible your not defending yourself from imminent serious bodily injury or you dont realize your within the law. And since your telling yourself you would rather be judged by 6 then carried by 12 so you must act, that means you clearly dont understand the laws or dont understand when its time to use lethal force. Understanding the laws is part of training. Theres no law that says you cant shoot a small woman with a knife. Your well within the law in the right situations.

« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 03:32:06 PM by special-k »
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Offline Reaver

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Re: How to improve violence of action?
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2012, 03:09:16 PM »
lol, Sorry three Yuenglings in.


I've said Judged by 12 than carried by 6 on here ( I believe ) Way more than once. And it actually is something that I say and live by pretty much everyday.


Here.
Plies - Can't Let Em Bury Me


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Offline special-k

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Re: How to improve violence of action?
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2012, 03:26:59 PM »
Brace yourselves everyone... It appears Reaver is getting his drunk on early this new year's eve.  [url=http://yoursmiles.org/p-m
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Offline thatGuy

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Re: How to improve violence of action?
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2012, 04:30:20 PM »
How about this as an idea...

Knock it off.

That is all.

Offline thatGirl

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Re: How to improve violence of action?
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2012, 08:16:59 PM »
Here it is guys, TG created this forum with the hope that it would be a useful tool, a place where people exchange ideas, teach each other what they know, learn what they don't, but it's kind of more like a cyber Cheers where we all get on to talk shit and tell jokes.  This is not and will never be what TG hoped, and he's willing to accept that.  A lot of useful information is exchanged on this site, but that happens in the background while all of the bullshit takes precedence. 

Ken is often speaking up as a grounding force, a reality check for whether or not peoples ideologies and macho bullshit are appropriate for the world we actually live in (this isn't the wild west) which, to some seems passive or doesn't jive, but it's his opinion and a heroic attempt to keep all of us heavily-armed, pompous assholes in check-- stick around Ken, you offer a unique perspective and a lot of great info. 

Reaver, aside from the comic relief, promotes a can-do, whatever needs to be done attitude and approach that may seem harsh and exaggerated for present times and conditions, but will be very effective if any of the bad shit we're all preparing for happens.  Talking to him, he's not a fake tough guy, he's a family man who cares about the safety of himself, wife, and child and wants to do the best job protecting them that he can, it just so happens that he has a very dark sense of humor like myself, and from what I've read, sometimes you too, Ken. 

We're all human, we're probably all douches in our own rights as well, and as such, should try to be a little forgiving of each others essence of douche.  We all talk a big game here and say a lot of inappropriate, irresponsible shit, but there are some gems in this pile of bullshit and I think we'll all benefit if can keep the cyber bullying to a minimum and listen to each other over the echos of paranoia and gunfire.

The problem with these online interactions is that it is really hard to get to know people and where they are coming from when you can't look them in the eye, see their facial expressions, or hear inflection in their speech.  Emoticons and acronyms help, but there's always a lot of misinterpretation in our interactions.  Getting to know a few of you more personally, I can see that my reaction to your posts is different because I have a better sense of what life experiences shape your views. 

Some of the men on the forum have killed to survive and treat it nonchalantly or with humor because that's the only way they can keep going through the daily motions without losing their shit.  Others may have never truly had their lives threatened and talk the way they do because the unknown is frightening.  I've experienced violence, I've had my life threatened, and I joke around because I didn't react to any of those situations in an intelligent manner.  I attribute my being alive to dumb luck and that scares the shit out of me, so I'm trying to learn skills and prepare so next time I'm not relying on luck.

Take a deep breath and step away from the computer for a while if it's aggravating, but come back at some point.  The only way forums like this are useful is if folks have different opinions that they can offer up, if we all agreed and knew the same shit, no learning would occur. 

Reaver, Ken, I would put the two of you in time out, but I know that you're both armed...

Send me a PM if anyone wants to have a bitch fest, TG's busy reloading and I'm staying in tonight to avoid the crazies and falling bullets!  Happy New Year folks, be safe!!!  [URL=http://www.smileyvault.co
     
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 04:31:52 AM by thatGirl »
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Offline thatGuy

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Re: How to improve violence of action?
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2012, 08:56:42 PM »
We are really getting into the weeds here guys.

The question is how can APX reprogram my reaction to one of aggression? Not a bad thing if it is coupled with positive training routines such as pre-engagement threat assessment.

p.s. thatGirl pretty well summed it up. Thanks for that.

hjmoosejaw

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Re: How to improve violence of action?
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2012, 10:57:54 PM »
You're right T-girl, it's hard sometimes to fully get something, somebody has typed accurate. I'm always bitching at my kids, when I tell my daughter to call my son for me, to ask him something. I'll ask them later, "what did your brother say about this or that?" Answer: " I'm still waiting on another text". then "Well, what about this or that?" Answer: " I don't know". I just say, "Why the Hell didn't you just call him and talk?, Give me the phone. ........I swear, with all of these communication abilities we have nowadays, so much is lost in translation. But then, sometimes, it's not LOL!

To the original post, sometimes it's hard to get it right,. how much, or not enough. Of course, if you think your life is in jeopardy, then "how much" is more easily decided. As far as everyday , garden variety ass kickins, it's sometimes harder to tell. Tell me if you guys have ever had this happen. ( I'm betting most, if not all have) You got pissed and made more out of something than you should have. You can usually tell if you did, cause everybody looks at you like "man, what the Hell ja do that for?" OR, Sometimes you didn't do enough. Then, later, (the more you thought about it, and after it's too late) you feel like a punk bitch, and wish you could have a do-over. Oh well, whatcha gonna do? Have a Happy New Year everybody!     

Offline thatGirl

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Re: How to improve violence of action?
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2013, 02:05:57 AM »
Sorry I took off in entirely the wrong direction responding to this thread, I saw the term Violence of Action and automatically thought SWAT tactics, not mental psyching for hand-to hand combat.  I should've paid more attention.

This may be a bad suggestion, correct me if this is the opposite of what you should do guys, but I suggest initiating VOA the old fashioned way, actually feel threatened and get pissed off.  Ask someone you are competitive with, who's abilities match or exceed yours, to warm up with you before class, or ask your non-threatening warm-up partner to run through a few moves that make you feel helpless and irritated. 

I guarantee you'll have no trouble exploding on some motherfucker threatening your life, but fight-or-flight mode can overwhelm and confuse your senses, so train pissed and learn how to use it to your advantage.  My guess is that's part of why drill sergeants get in people's faces and yell all of the time, to train you under duress and teach you how to redirect the anger they are causing toward someone else. 

A friend of mine was helping me with my street fighting techniques when I was a teenager, and I wasn't taking it seriously enough because I felt silly fighting someone that I liked and didn't want to hurt.  He slapped me around pretty hard till I got pissed and then we continued the lesson, which was much more effective once we were actually fighting than pretending to fight. 

A lot of folks get fast and loose when they get angry, compromising there defense with sloppy offensive moves.  As you become more competent and confident in your abilities, training your reflexes, you'll no longer be in a rush to make your body react how you want it to and you'll have more time to focus on your opponents movements rather than your own.

I'm sure you all know this already, but watch the hips, they tell you what the other guy's doing before he even knows...
All the great things are simple, and many can be expressed in a single word: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope.
Winston Churchill

You have freedom when you're easy in your harness.
Robert Frost

Tomorrow hopes we have learned something from yesterday.
John Wayne

Offline Reaver

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Re: How to improve violence of action?
« Reply #22 on: January 01, 2013, 03:30:57 AM »
I always watch the hips.  :P
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Offline APX808

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Re: How to improve violence of action?
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2014, 02:35:24 PM »

Offline APX808

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Re: How to improve violence of action?
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2014, 03:22:36 PM »
Another great related article, this time by Max Velocity:

http://www.maxvelocitytactical.com/2014/05/mental-preparation-for-combat/