Unchained Preppers

General Category => Security & Survival => Topic started by: JoJo on June 08, 2016, 06:36:43 PM

Title: What grain bullet
Post by: JoJo on June 08, 2016, 06:36:43 PM: What grain bullet does NATO use in the 5.56 cartridge is it 55 or 62 grains? Is one or the other used strictly for practice?
When it comes to self defense is one better than the other? A curious mind wants to know.
Title: Re: What grain bullet
Post by: JohnyMac on June 08, 2016, 08:16:54 PM: 62 gr. is the military standard. IMO, it does not matter what to use to practice - Just practice.
Title: Re: What grain bullet
Post by: Erick on June 08, 2016, 09:28:23 PM: The original bullet was 55gr aka the M193.
The current is 62 gr ( aka M855 the one with penetrator, aka "Greentip"however just because it's "MILSPEC" doesnt mean it's "better")
Title: Re: What grain bullet
Post by: Grudgie on June 08, 2016, 10:10:24 PM: This will tell you everything you want to know about the 5.56 cartridge:

https://www.ar15.com/ammo/ (https://www.ar15.com/ammo/)

The short answer is that the 5.56's primary wounding mechanism is fragmentation which can only reliably happen at velocitys of ~2800 fps. The 55grn bullet being lighter will naturally stay above the 2800 fps threshold longer than the 62grn and will fragment out to slightly longer ranges.

However with civilian bullets like the 75grn hollow point match, they have thin jackets which will fragment at lower velocitys making them theoretically better than the what the military uses.
Title: Re: What grain bullet
Post by: gadget99 on June 09, 2016, 12:00:34 PM: Damn.... interesting question here.

My specialty when with the U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit was ammo for accuracy.

Green tip is a good general purpose round yet accuracy suffered do to the core not always being consistent in placement.

Federal 69gr Match is good stuff yet you need to be aware of what twist your barrel is and better in a match grade gun.

I suggest you do some sampling on the range off sandbags to see what shoots in your rifles well based upon best price in bulk. Then stick with it.

Don't knock the .223/5.56 thing though. I used to compete at Army level shooting at 600yds with issue M16A2's and Service ammo with Iron sights.

The lesson here is that much of the time your rifle can out shoot your ability.
Title: Re: What grain bullet
Post by: CJS06 on June 09, 2016, 02:44:21 PM: To build off of what Gadget said, the most accurate for your rifle may not have anything to do with what the military currently uses. In general a 1:9 twist barrel (like many commercial ARs) will shoot the lighter 55gr projectile a bit more accurate than the heavier 62gr or higher rounds as they just dont stabilize as well. This is irrespective of the inherent inconsistency caused by the cores of the M855 projectile. Likewise the 1:7 twist tends to stabilize a heavier round better. The best thing to do is test what shoots best in your rifle.

As an aside the military also is starting to use the Mk318 SOST which is a newer open tip 62 gr round as well as the mk262 OTM which is a 77gr round. These are really not widely used other than in the Special Operations community, though the Marines have made noises of switching to the Mk318.

For most of my training I shoot M193 55gr and find its accuracy to be more than adequate. Other than long distance (600+ yds) when I shoot either 77gr of 69 gr. The difference in accuracy between M193 and M855 is nominal, just make sure you have your rifle zeroed for what you are shooting.

For self defense I keep a couple of thousand rounds of mk262. After I am done training I rezero my rifle for the mk262 before it gets put away. I also have a few thousand rounds loaded with 62gr Barnes TSX which have ballistics similar enough to the Mk262 that I am ok with the zero......especially if things go bad enough that I am using it for SD.

Also to build on what Gadget said dont get hung up on the 5.56 for distance....it works. I regularly shoot out to 800+ with my 5.56 just as consistently as with my .308. This Sept. I am using my 5.56 for a scoped carbine class out in Utah that will take us out to 1000.

Practice a ton with whatever you can get! Then worry about the "best" SD round after. After all the "best" round is the one that you put on target.
Title: Re: What grain bullet
Post by: gadget99 on June 09, 2016, 04:07:43 PM: Quote from: CJS06 on June 09, 2016, 02:44:21 PM
To build off of what Gadget said, the most accurate for your rifle may not have anything to do with what the military currently uses. In general a 1:9 twist barrel (like many commercial ARs) will shoot the lighter 55gr projectile a bit more accurate than the heavier 62gr or higher rounds as they just dont stabilize as well. This is irrespective of the inherent inconsistency caused by the cores of the M855 projectile. Likewise the 1:7 twist tends to stabilize a heavier round better. The best thing to do is test what shoots best in your rifle.

As an aside the military also is starting to use the Mk318 SOST which is a newer open tip 62 gr round as well as the mk262 OTM which is a 77gr round. These are really not widely used other than in the Special Operations community, though the Marines have made noises of switching to the Mk318.

For most of my training I shoot M193 55gr and find its accuracy to be more than adequate. Other than long distance (600+ yds) when I shoot either 77gr of 69 gr. The difference in accuracy between M193 and M855 is nominal, just make sure you have your rifle zeroed for what you are shooting.

For self defense I keep a couple of thousand rounds of mk262. After I am done training I rezero my rifle for the mk262 before it gets put away. I also have a few thousand rounds loaded with 62gr Barnes TSX which have ballistics similar enough to the Mk262 that I am ok with the zero......especially if things go bad enough that I am using it for SD.

Also to build on what Gadget said dont get hung up on the 5.56 for distance....it works. I regularly shoot out to 800+ with my 5.56 just as consistently as with my .308. This Sept. I am using my 5.56 for a scoped carbine class out in Utah that will take us out to 1000.

Practice a ton with whatever you can get! Then worry about the "best" SD round after. After all the "best" round is the one that you put on target.

Well said .....

Take some time to think about your intended engagement ranges. In most of the US you are going to have close combat ranges for much stuff. In woodland you are looking at 100m or less for chance engagements. You have to concentrate on being able to accurately fire on multiple targets in rapid fashion. The average troop or Gov shooter are crap at accuracy. Just the way it is. You need to be able to get behind cover and take a magazine full of shots hitting at 90% accuracy. I used to run drills shooting from 200 to 900 meters with my M21 trying to score a hit on metal plates. There were ten the range. I did it most days in about 15sec.

If you have the rifle to do long range then you have to do a bit of setting up in your AO. Long range fire in a prepper sense should be used to degrade the advancement of the enemy. That means slow them down a bit. Don't take more than 30 seconds of shots from the same location.

It is better to set an ambush and wipe the enemy out completely.

Think about it. You take some long range shots and they get on the radio to alert higher that there is trouble in your area.

Set the ambush. Let them get close. Real close. Then do what is needed.
Title: Re: What grain bullet
Post by: Erick on June 09, 2016, 08:20:32 PM: Quote from: CJS06 on June 09, 2016, 02:44:21 PM

1)To build off of what Gadget said, the most accurate for your rifle may not have anything to do with what the military currently uses. In general a 1:9 twist barrel (like many commercial ARs) will shoot the lighter 55gr projectile a bit more accurate than the heavier 62gr or higher rounds as they just dont stabilize as well. This is irrespective of the inherent inconsistency caused by the cores of the M855 projectile. Likewise the 1:7 twist tends to stabilize a heavier round better. The best thing to do is test what shoots best in your rifle.

2) As an aside the military also is starting to use the Mk318 SOST which is a newer open tip 62 gr round as well as the mk262 OTM which is a 77gr round. These are really not widely used other than in the Special Operations community, though the Marines have made noises of switching to the Mk318.

1) this is almost true.... Actually 1 in 9 not only stabilizes the 55gr better but also the 62gr.
But 62gr will tolerate the 1 in 7 twist ok (again aside from the fact that M855 penetrator ammo will often have accuracy issues).
69 gr works well with 1 in 7 but also still good with 1 in 9.
So there really is no reason to use anything other than 1 in 9 unless one wishes to go heavier (longer really) rounds than 69.. As they tend to be expensive I see little reason to.

To boot ,1 in 9 will wear out better (slower ) than 1 in 7 if all other things are equal.
however due to the milspec craze its hard to find high end CHF, 1 in 9 barrels as stock equipment on new ARs

(A rifle is useless w/o ammo and so Ammo really is the "arms" we must bear...
In a SHTF situation it may be easier to find a rifle than a useful amount of ammo...

And lets not forget training requirements even in SHTF)

2) The Mk318 is a nice round but starts at about 90 cents a round (commercial sales) and so is off the table for all but the wealthiest preppers since buying expensive ammo gets in the way of stacking deep.

As an analogy SHTF I rather have one 900 dollar rifle with iron sights and 6 cases of ammo than a $1900 rifle and a nice redot with a half case of ammo.

Then there is the Army's M855A1.
better accuracy than (X)M855, better effect on targets than M855 while still retaining penetration of M855.

Only knock on it it its expensive (if u can find it) and its also kind a magnum round and will but a lot of wear on your rifle...

Mk262 is nice but again the focus on these "boutique" ammo types detracts from stashing and stashing deep.

As preppers I believe we would be misdirected to try to find the very best bullets money can buy.
As we all are limited by our personal budgets and there will NEVER be enough ammo our key performance parameters (KPPS) should be these:

1) affordability
2) reliability
3) useful minute of man accuracy
4) Effectiveness on Human being

Item 1 should perhaps be weighed double since Ammo that you no longer have since you could not afford as much as you needed is the worst ammo is it not?

I propose an evaluation system for "Prepper aquistions" for 5.56mm Ammo:

Let me try a 1 -5 value system eval for XM855. 1 is worst and 5 is best

1) 2 pts
2) 5 pts
3) 2 pts
4) 2 pts
Weighing item 1 twice this gives 2+2+5+2+2 divides by 5 = an avg rating of 2.6

Federal white box in 55gr:

1) 2
2) 5
3) 4
4) 5

using same formula this gives: 2+2+5+4+5: 3.6

Tula 55gr:

1) 5
2 )1
3) 2
4) 2 (low velocity)

Same formula: 3 . Worse than Federal 55gr

PPU69gr Match

1) 1
2) 5
3) 5
4) 4

Same formula: 3.2

Wolf Military Classic 62gr HP:

1) 4
2) 4
3) 4
4) 5

Same formula: 4.2

Now we can all quibble how the values that should be assigned.. this was just an off-the-cuff example for a candidate round for as a main carry round for the purpose of manning your team should be evaluated.
While we all can (and doubtless will) argue how we should assign these numbers it's IMO an example of the kind of methods we must use approach this problem
Title: Re: What grain bullet
Post by: gadget99 on June 10, 2016, 03:52:50 AM: Well written Erick
Title: Re: What grain bullet
Post by: JohnyMac on June 10, 2016, 07:23:28 AM: WOW...Great write-up Erick. Thanks :cheers:

Now, what does the group individually think the minimum rounds on hand you should have on hand for each primary and secondary weapon your tribe carries?

Our goals are:
Show content
Primary 5,000 Rounds
Secondary 500 Rounds

Again, this is an arbitrary number with no basis in facts other than to spur conversation.
Title: Re: What grain bullet
Post by: Nemo on June 10, 2016, 04:04:51 PM: OK, I have ammo for a tribe of 3. I need 2 volunteers to join up.

Nemo
Title: Re: What grain bullet
Post by: JoJo on June 10, 2016, 06:18:41 PM: Quote from: Nemo on June 10, 2016, 04:04:51 PM
OK, I have ammo for a tribe of 3. I need 2 volunteers to join up.

Nemo

Either your middle name is Superman or your bugging in.
Title: Re: What grain bullet
Post by: Erick on June 10, 2016, 08:31:46 PM: Another thought on this subject.

If (after prudent analysis) your group determines its operational environment makes it need more "oomph" either for distance or effects or accuracy then perhaps a 7.62x51 rifle such as an AR10 should be added to the mix.

There are many fine 7.62x51 mm ARs and AR type weapons out there.
Ammo of course will be more expensive but no more (less actually) than the exotic 5.56 mm types and it will outperform them in range, damage and (excepting M855) penetration.
Title: Re: What grain bullet
Post by: CJS06 on June 10, 2016, 09:28:22 PM: Quote from: JohnyMac on June 10, 2016, 07:23:28 AM
WOW...Great write-up Erick. Thanks :cheers:

Now, what does the group individually think the minimum rounds on hand you should have on hand for each primary and secondary weapon your tribe carries?

Our goals are:
Show content
Primary 5,000 Rounds
Secondary 500 Rounds

Again, this is an arbitrary number with no basis in facts other than to spur conversation.

It depends on what you mean by "on hand". For my primary I beleive in about 10k rds of my on hand for training, but for load out I keep 2k rds on hand. Similar for my secondary. I keep about 8k rds on hand for training but only keep about 1k of my loadout ammo. For my heavy carbine I keep about 8 k for training and about 2k of my "good stuff". I also keep a few k of 300BLK and .45ACp on hand but I would not count these as go to calibers.

Periodically I do train with my load out ammo and rotate the stock but for high volume training I just cant afford it.

As JoJo alluded to this is not what I load out, just what I keep on hand.
Title: Re: What grain bullet
Post by: sledge on June 11, 2016, 07:28:58 AM: Hmmmm. Once again the 22lr is not even mentioned in a prepper discussion of dynamic and useful rounds that should be stocked and kept on hand. Poor little 22lr. Not to worry little one, I love you!
Title: Re: What grain bullet
Post by: JohnyMac on June 11, 2016, 11:23:42 AM: Although .22LR is an excellent round Sledge and I have a few cartons squirreled away, my primary is not a .22LR ;)
Title: Re: What grain bullet
Post by: gadget99 on June 11, 2016, 02:47:00 PM: Quote from: sledge on June 11, 2016, 07:28:58 AM
Hmmmm. Once again the 22lr is not even mentioned in a prepper discussion of dynamic and useful rounds that should be stocked and kept on hand. Poor little 22lr. Not to worry little one, I love you!

Want to chime in on this one.

While I am not advocating 22lr as a main battle rifle.

I do wish to point out that withing 100m the average shooter that is out hunting small game. Can easily put a few rounds in the head area of a surprise enemy. While not in any way a battle round. Do not in any way discount the potential of this humble round.

That and the ammo is cheaper round for round (as of many years ago when I still lived in the states).

Sometimes we tend to think inside of the box a bit to much.
Title: Re: What grain bullet
Post by: Nemo on June 12, 2016, 09:35:35 AM: What grain bullet? The one you have to fill the magazine.

Nemo
Title: Re: What grain bullet
Post by: Erick on June 12, 2016, 04:08:51 PM: Thanks for the kind words fellas! :)
Title: Re: What grain bullet
Post by: Nemo on June 12, 2016, 09:10:38 PM: Quote from: sledge on June 11, 2016, 07:28:58 AM
Hmmmm. Once again the 22lr is not even mentioned in a prepper discussion of dynamic and useful rounds that should be stocked and kept on hand. Poor little 22lr. Not to worry little one, I love you!

I did a quick inventory of my main closet the other day. 23.6K of 22lr. It knows its loved by me.

Nemo
Title: Re: What grain bullet
Post by: gadget99 on June 14, 2016, 03:05:20 PM: Been thinking on this a bit.

Look I have masses of experience with this. You don't serve 10yrs in the U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit with half of those in the Reloading section of the custom firearms shop without picking up some stuff.

I was part of the process of making the M16A2 the competition rifle for the Service Rifle Team moving on from the M1A1.

That and serving 4 yrs as a Sniper in Panama prior to this.

Here is the deal.

There are some lessons that need to be learned. I will try and provide some.

1. A rack grade (issue) M16A2 and issue ammo will out shoot the average soldier. With Iron sights, if it was within 300m I could call the shot. Meaning I could take head shots all day. With optics I was comfortable to make
precision shots to 500m. Now yes I spent weeks living on the range shooting thousands of rounds a year. So the lesson is learn to shoot accurately at the distances you want to be proficient at.
2. Stop concentrating on the tool. Become better at wielding that tool.
3. One shot one kill is a real thing.
4. Supressive fire should only be where the asshole got behind cover before the strike of the round.
5. You can have thousands of rounds packed away, yet if you cannot hit what you are shooting at it means nothing.
6. In most parts of the world you will be fighting at 300m or less.
7. Find the ammo that functions consistently in your rifle that costs the least and hits what you are shooting at at 300m or less. (providing you train well enough to shoot at 300m)
8. Yes have a battle rifle and a close in fighting pistol. Yet have hunting stuff also. Yes a 22lr has a place in this equation.
9. Think outside of the box for civilian thinking and sit down with veterans that have a more unconventional thought process.

Brain hurts now so will leave this one for now. Will post more later.
Title: Re: What grain bullet
Post by: Erick on June 16, 2016, 07:17:20 PM: Good stuff gadget!! :fuckYeah:
Title: Re: What grain bullet
Post by: brat on June 17, 2016, 06:32:19 AM: Good post gadget. Especially like....................

Quote
You can have thousands of rounds packed away, yet if you cannot hit what you are shooting at it means nothing.

After all, the skill once obtained is perishable, much like eyesight as you age. :(
Title: Re: What grain bullet
Post by: Erick on June 17, 2016, 06:59:28 AM: Quote from: brat on June 17, 2016, 06:32:19 AM
Good post gadget. Especially like....................

Quote
You can have thousands of rounds packed away, yet if you cannot hit what you are shooting at it means nothing.

After all, the skill once obtained is perishable, much like eyesight as you age. :(

I got eye surgery 3 yrs ago and the results are great : )
Makes me independent of contacts.

Results:
20/30 left eye, 20/15 right eye

Highly recommend it :)
Title: Re: What grain bullet
Post by: gadget99 on June 18, 2016, 01:54:23 AM: Quote from: Erick on June 17, 2016, 06:59:28 AM
Quote from: brat on June 17, 2016, 06:32:19 AM
Good post gadget. Especially like....................

Quote
You can have thousands of rounds packed away, yet if you cannot hit what you are shooting at it means nothing.

After all, the skill once obtained is perishable, much like eyesight as you age. :(

I got eye surgery 3 yrs ago and the results are great : )
Makes me independent of contacts.

Results:
20/30 left eye, 20/15 right eye

Highly recommend it :)
Oh I so want to get mine done also.

Been thinking of it for a while.
Title: Re: What grain bullet
Post by: brat on June 18, 2016, 08:58:34 PM: Went to get tested several months back to see if I was a candidate for lasik, they told me my eyes weren't out of whack enough.. :o :o

So, I guess I'll just wait until they are.
Title: Re: What grain bullet
Post by: Erick on June 19, 2016, 12:42:53 AM: I would agree that the risk and cost of surgery is not worth it unless you're eyes are of enough you cant function without glasses or contacts.

Prior to surgery they told me other than my rods and cones in the left were those of a much younger man..
Ironically that was the eye with the worst myopia.

I got a procedure called ICL ( courtesy of the Army) which is the more complex than lasik and PRK which I was not a candidate for.

One caution on PRK... I had my left "touched up" after PRK and it took me almost a year to recover.
I would caution against having both eyes done same time if u are considering PRK.

I would have been unable to drive or function if I had both eyes in same boat during that time.
My case might be a bit unusual but even so....