What's Good Enough? - Handgun Skills

[USMC0331]

I'm starting this thread and another "What's Good Enough - Carbine Skills" because I'm curious what people here consider a "minimum" of skills needed to call it good on their handguns and carbine skills.

So what is your litmus test(s) concerning handgun skills for the prepper?

What is your training regime?

[Reaver]

Myself and a few other people here can speak specifically one handguns as well. I'm no expert when it comes to handguns but I'm sure most would agree that if one can tag a man at 30 meters. You should be good. Again speed reloads and kit.

[JohnyMac]

I consider emptying a mag and hitting the '8' ring on an Army 'L' target in under 10 seconds (Holster draw) is doing good for me. Distance - 5 yards out to 25 yards. My EDC is a 1911 so only eight rounds are fired.

For fun I do shoot all of my hand guns at gongs out to 75 yards.

I haven't seen 1000meter on the forum in awhile but he claims his normal range for his Sig (P227 I think) is 50 yards. 

[crudos]

Would think loading, firing, reloading, and firing again under stress and hitting the target should probably be part of your pistol skill set.

[JohnyMac]

Yeah Crudos, I should probably add reloading and going at it a second time to get that muscle memory down. 

[sledge]

From my viewpoint what is "good enough" depends on the person, their firearms ability goals, and the situations that they train for.  That is if they are training much at all.  The vast majority of gun owners train little at all. ( This includes most LE and preppers by the way.)  A small percentage of gun owners set goals and practice often in an effort to become consistently proficient with the handguns that they own.     

So is the person's goal:

To put a rabbit in the pot with a 22 cal pistol?

To draw and fire quickly and accurately with a concealed weapon or holstered weapon at 5'-10'?

To be capable from a ready position to engage in a sustained gunfight with a pistol?  (Requiring movement and reloads.)

To me, whether someone is "good enough" depends on whether they are able to accomplish whatever ability their goal is.  That will be different for different people.  This applies to the rifle question as well.

I'm not avoiding the question of what I personally consider "good enough" for myself.  Due to my business, I have the luxury of practicing a little more often than most and have great venues for training at my disposal.  I can accomplish each of the goals listed above.     





 

[USMC0331]

sledge you make good points.  I would hope that preppers see the need to be able to defend against others that will want what they have and may even have .mil experience behind them.

That being the case, we need to be a bit more trained then being able to hit a jackrabbit for supper.

The handgun skillset plays more into a concealed environment or you would have your carbine with you.  That being the case, I would put great value on getting the gun into action from concealment.  Be it from the "FUT" position when you are behind the power curve, or doing the sneaky draw while the business you are in is being robbed.

Making fast first shot hits with multiple followups (shooting the threat to the ground) would be a good place to start.
Making COM hits out to 50 yards behind cover would be good also.
Having reloads and immediate action drills down cold.
Being able to shoot at least 70% as well one handed (weak also) is big as the hands and arms tend to get hit.

I haven't sat down and made a set of goals or minimum bars standards I want to maintain my skills at and that is why I'm asking the questions.  I will be putting together a training regime for myself on handgun and carbine soon though that I hope will represent skills that one would possibly need in SHTF and start practicing them.

Just like the need to be in shape is driving me to set a training regime of hiking and pushup for now, I think the same needs to be applied to weapon skillsets.

[Currahee]

What's "good enough" would depend on the situation you are in.  Most people who actively compete in three gun or other dynamic shooting sports are probably "good enough" shooters.  Or, in leu of that, shooting some timed drills once a quarter or so is probably "good enough."  Time is the important companant that makes combat shooting deiifernet from shooting as a hobby.  As a group we spend far to much time empahsizing shooting skill instead of mindset, tactics or physical fitness- things that are more likely to keep you alive on a two way range. 


That being said there are a couple of standards I look for in myself and others.

For Pistol I like to be under 2 seconds of an A zone double tap from concelament at 7 yards, or under three seconds for a mozambique- this is with the target to the left or right, not facing it.

For carbine we do a drill called the positions drill but is similar to the Navy Qualification.  5 shots each from standing kneeling and prone (with magazine changes) - a-zone hits @35 meters under 30 seconds. Move it up to 45 seconds at 50 yards, or sometimes I do it on 3/4 IPSC steel at 100 yards w/45 seconds still the targets.  I also do the same thing with pistol @ ten yards.

You can see our pisitions drill here (first drill with rifle then pistol)

Training Day

 

[USMC0331]

Those look like good standards curahee, I expected no less from you.  Since you are the only guy I know that has a "group" that trains, do you encourage competition amongst your members and keep track of a moving target as you raise the bar, or set a minimum "annual qual" style that you all must pass when it's range day?  How do you motivate them to train and how often?

I like the way Pat McNamara adds something to his drills to tire himself out.  I think it's important to work the drills either cold or after heavy exertion (and in kit) to get closer to reality.  We all like to have our warm ups beforehand, but the world doesn't allow for that except on a square range unfortunately.

one thing I see with 3gun shooters and even in your vid is the "square range syndrome" that creeps in and is shown by the slow movements between barricades and positions.  If bullets are flying, I am running my ass off to the next shooting position and I find myself having to remind myself of that when on the range and to practice as I want to fight.

I've taken a fellow 3gun shooter to the range for as he calls it "TEOTWAWKI training" and told him to be in full kit only working off of it (not the back of the truck bed) for ammo, reloads, comms, etc.  But when he gets there it's like another "square range day" or IDPA shoot to him.  Is it something that people have or don't, concerning mindset?

Sorry for the detour...  I consider mindset an integral part of weapons manipulation and use it as a litmus test when working with potential SHTF reaction team candidates.  Unfortunately, I've only found one that fits the bill, but I'd enter any room with the guy and feel 100% sure I was not going to get fratricided.

[Currahee]

I started my own three gun match as an entrance exam for my "SHTF reaction group."  I have been able to observe hundreds of people shooting -evaluate their skill, mindset etc and then think about asking them for further training.  My group is a floating membership- we don't organize the way some people think, we certainly encourage shooting skill competition but recognize that a second or two on a three gun match is not (solely) what will win a shootout.

I will also agree that some kind of physical stress in training is a good idea- if you look across my videos you will see several suggestions for it.

Here's one that isn't public... just playing with the editing

fitshot2

[USMC0331]

More good stuff to consider....

http://youtu.be/lYuK-Eq2Upg

• Hand switching work for anyone here?
• Think speed reloads are not important?  I'd be shitting twinkies if I had made one perf hit in that close of quarters and had to reload that slow.  You have shot 3 guys and are 1/2 through the house, might be a good time for a tac-load?
• There is no cover in a house... ducking behind a wall = being shot through the wall. 
• Should train reactive targets when possible, learn to shoot to ground. Balloon filled cardboard targets work well here.