What's Good Enough - Carbine Skills

[USMC0331]

I'm starting this thread and another "What's Good Enough - Handgun Skills" because I'm curious what people here consider a "minimum" of skills needed to call it good on their handguns and carbine skills.

So what is your litmus test(s) concerning carbine skills for the prepper? (looking at 0-500yards) not sniping.

What is your training regime?

[Reaver]

Seeing as ive pretty much hit expert on everything in the armies inventory I believe I can speak on this.

If with a rifle one can hit a man size target at 300 meters 5/10 times your good. As distance decreases shots get easier and shot placement gets better.  What matters THE MOST isn't the shot, but how fast one can reload and knowledge on ones own kit. That's it.

The first time a bullet comes zipping past your head. All the training in the world wont stop your mag dump towards the enemy.  Thats whats going to happen. After that initial dump during the lull of you both reloading is when it counts.

[JohnyMac]

Using my holographic or A.R.M.S. sights I can easily do head shots with a rifle support out to 200 yards. I haven't tried out father though as I have scoped rifles for that job.

I have "tried" to simulate combat by doing jumping jacks and other cardio raising exercises and can hit a man sized target in the boiler plate, using different firing positions, out to 200 yards.

Now under stress of combat I hope I could hit a man sized target in the boiler plate at 200 yards. Time will tell. 

Stay tuned. 

[rah45]

Honestly, I'm still a novice with my rifle skills (I'm learning), but is it reasonable to assume that you will engage anyone at distances of greater than 200 yards? I mean, without a scope ("sniping"), I seriously doubt I will be able to verify that person is actually a threat. Am I supposed to just start shooting at the first person I see? Unless you can verify that person is actively shooting at you with the naked eye, I don't see why I would want to put rounds down range. At 200+ yards, I should be able to disengage or close with the perceived enemy to verify my target. Right? Even if you're under fire, do you really want to start popping off rounds at what you think might be the enemy? In my mind, what if it's an innocent, and the enemy is elsewhere shooting at you? I don't want to take an innocent life. 1) My conscience would kill me. 2) You kill the innocent by accident, thinking it is the enemy, and if you check it out the real enemy ambushes you.

This is coming from someone who has never been in combat, so take my words with a grain (or a pound) of salt.

[JohnyMac]

I hear ya' Rah and agree with one caveat:

Blue Helmet = Shoot on site 

[USMC0331]

At 200+ yards, I should be able to disengage or close with the perceived enemy to verify my target. Right?

It's 250 yards to middle of my property from the house were an access road comes up to it.  Being able to hit a steel plate set at the gate when people are trying to cut across the property (they try even now) to follow the irrigation ditch would be a good confirmation of the no-tresspass sign. 

Being able to make a hit past 200 yards has more value then trying to kill someone.  Think outside the box.

How far is it from the middle of your block to the end cross roads?  Think you might ever be "neighborhood watch" ala SELCO style in SHTF?  I'd venture it's close to or farther than 200 yards. 

Having at least a 4X scope is a huge multiplier as far as IDing and making hits at this distance.  The farther out you can make the hit or discourage others, the safer you will be.



GOOD ENOUGH...
My personal test is that I need to be good enough to beat someone with military experience.  We have a lot of war vets and not all are going to be good guys in SHTF. 

Those that don't stock on food will go get it.  The guy that has some training (i.e. average soldier) will be the biggest threat as they are head and shoulders above the average citizen plinker and they understand tacics.

BASICS TO HAVE DOWN PAT IMO:

• Make COM hits out to 500 yards
• Know how to clear a house with your carbine alone, & with a buddy
• Make COM hits while driving through a roadblock at 30 MPH
• Make COM hits from 25-200 yards from around a vehicle as cover, using standoff & prone methods
• Know your zero and ballistics well enough to make an eye box shot from 10-200 yards?
• Be able to perform reloads in less than 3 seconds from any position
• Be able make COM hits on moving targets up to 10MPH from 25-100 yards
• Be able to make a transition to secondary in less than 2 seconds when primary fails and get hits from 0-50 yards.
• Be able to clear any malfunction from "three little kittens" to case separation. Thanks Curahee for the guide rod tip!!!
• more as I think of them...

[Kentactic]

The minimum is perfection. Until you obtain that keep training hard.

[USMC0331]

The minimum is perfection. Until you obtain that keep training hard.

Good sound byte, but what do you train specifically to reach that goal?  How often?

[Kentactic]

The minimum is perfection. Until you obtain that keep training hard.

Good sound byte, but what do you train specifically to reach that goal?  How often?

I'm always improving any way i can. Its not hard to find an area to improve in. I'd train every damn day if I could.

Like stated by Reaver, weapons manipulation skill wins fights not being able to hit that penny with your pistol at 100 yards.

[USMC0331]

I say making timely COM hits while maneuvering and communicating wins the fight.  "At speed" being the key.   

Most shooters outside of 3gunners and dedicated shooters like Currahee"s group seem to miss that part.  Most shooters being the average joes I see at the public range.

If I'm doing 5sec reloads instead of 2sec reloads on my rifle behind cover, its not a big deal compared to making a hit or miss on an exposed foot at 100 yards. 

I'll take accuracy at speed over a perfect reload any day. Not that we shouldn't be working on both.

50% hits at 300 on a COM target even with a moving target is not going to cut it for me.

I was making 80% (4 of 5) hits on a 6MPH disappearing "jogger" with a bolt gun and 6X scope at that range and it was the first time I'd ever done it.

I once joined a group of guys (4-5 IIRC) from work at the range during rifle sight in for deer season. Each year they got together and had a competition for a case of beer on who could shoot the most targets at 100 yards in a row.  These were 2-3" balloons stapled to a board. They had rested bolt guns with 3-9 scopes and could not hit more than one in a row!!!! My future wife outshot them with their own rifle and she never shoots.

Accuracy has a big role with a long gun and pistol IMO, bigger than reloading and smaller than immediate actions.

As absolutes like dumping a mag in the general direction of incoming before getting ahold of myself? Won't say it won't happen, but I won't be training that way either.

Knowing your kit is crucial I agree.  I noticed one guy in Currahee's video going for a belt reload and then realizing that it was on his PC. One reason why I run my same pistol EDC setup even with my PC and CH. muscle memory is hard to break.

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to say my way is THE way or that your level of competence and mine should be the same, just pointing out my beliefs and like everyone else's, they are based on my own experience.

I've been shot at, but not by one trying to kill me. I've also trained to respond to threats one way as LEO and proven under stress to default to that training.  I've also done enough manipulations that a RTB is second nature when they are not expected.  I've also changed gear positions and tried to stuff a flashlight into my Glock during an emergency reload, back to knowing your kit again!

Appreciate all input! If you have any kind of regime that you use I'd like to hear about it.  If you don't then what keeps your training from becoming a play date at the range?

[Kentactic]

Hitting a 3" balloon @100 yards until you miss with a bolt gun? That would be an expensive game. 500 rounds later fatigue finally takes its tole...

To say hit X target at X distance dosent say much. I can go 10 out of 10 on an 8" plate at 650 yards with a good crosswind. It actually gets boring fast, semi-rapid firing and not missing. It means nothing. I can't do that with rounds cracking overhead.


I really am finding it hard to find words to explain this. I could type 20 paragraphs and say nothing. Just never stop training. Simple. Learn stuff and train it. If you had a good day at the range your training sucks. You should feel like you suck because you trained everything you suck at.

[USMC0331]

Simple. Learn stuff and train it.

And that's what I'm trying to drag out of you... LOL  What stuff? 

Opening and closing an eyebox door at 650 on an MGM target is easy with a scoped GAP 308 but is that stuff I need to really concentrate on for SHTF?  Is the payback worth the investment for most scenarios?

Is hitting a walking COM at 300 with an AR15 and ACOG a good investment?  How about headshots at 100 static?  COM shots at 25-50 inside a house?  F2S drills on chargers at 15 yards?

Can your gear even get you past 100 yard COM shots realistically?  Where do you see a carbines sweet spot at in SHTF scenarios? Where do you spend your time at with it most?

[Kentactic]

Simple. Learn stuff and train it.

And that's what I'm trying to drag out of you... LOL  What stuff? 

Opening and closing an eyebox door at 650 on an MGM target is easy with a scoped GAP 308 but is that stuff I need to really concentrate on for SHTF?  Is the payback worth the investment for most scenarios?

Is hitting a walking COM at 300 with an AR15 and ACOG a good investment?  How about headshots at 100 static?  COM shots at 25-50 inside a house?  F2S drills on chargers at 15 yards?

Can your gear even get you past 100 yard COM shots realistically?  Where do you see a carbines sweet spot at in SHTF scenarios? Where do you spend your time at with it most?

-Pistol 21'

-Shotgun (my go to primary) 50 yards

If I can RULE that circle i'm feelin pretty good.

A shotgun really is all weapons manipulation. Its a game of keeping the gun fed. Hitting targets is a given(when your at a certain level). Its up to your pattern to do the rest. Anyone in my circle is my bitch. Your outside my circle? Your my team mate with the ARs bitch. Any AR in my circle is at a disadvantage. Any shotgun is too because I bet I keep my gun fed faster and pellets flying at you more regularly. If I can't feel that confident I need to train harder. Ill forever be seeking that confidence.

[USMC0331]

ARMY guys.... LOL  skip to 7m20s

http://youtu.be/b6VtmbAKVZ8?t=7m56s

[Kentactic]

ARMY guys.... LOL  skip to 7m20s

http://youtu.be/b6VtmbAKVZ8?t=7m20s

Haven't skipped ahead to see what your talking about but this vern lost my interest in the first minute when he released the slide on a new mag with the slide lock on his pistol.. lol.... under no circumstances should you train to do such a thing...

[special-k]

...when he released the slide on a new mag with the slide lock on his pistol.. lol.... under no circumstances should you train to do such a thing...

... That is unless you're rockin' a Kahr. 

[/end sarcastic remark about Kahrs]

[USMC0331]

Kentactic... never mind. LOL

[Kentactic]

Kentactic... never mind. LOL

Ya I missed the joke. I'm drinking and watching with no sound on my phone.

[rah45]

Dude in the video claimed that "Army guys" spend 4-5 seconds of rapid fire and hit jack shit, whereas he spends a second or two actually aiming and getting hits.

Though I'm pretty sure there are a lot of "Army guys" who would take issue with that broad classification. 1KM was an "Army guy," airborne, I believe.

[rah45]

At 200+ yards, I should be able to disengage or close with the perceived enemy to verify my target. Right?

It's 250 yards to middle of my property from the house were an access road comes up to it.  Being able to hit a steel plate set at the gate when people are trying to cut across the property (they try even now) to follow the irrigation ditch would be a good confirmation of the no-tresspass sign. 

I can see the value of that, but it also reveals your position. I don't have a fire team to back me up. Just me and a couple of other guys.


Being able to make a hit past 200 yards has more value then trying to kill someone.  Think outside the box.

I didn't say I wouldn't put time into it, or that it isn't a skill that is useful to have. My impression of your initial post was that we were talking combat related shooting for use against opposition.

How far is it from the middle of your block to the end cross roads?  Think you might ever be "neighborhood watch" ala SELCO style in SHTF?  I'd venture it's close to or farther than 200 yards.

The areas I see myself being in during a SHTF scenario are nominally 200 yards or less. Maybe more in certain instances, but not enough to make it a huge concern.

Having at least a 4X scope is a huge multiplier as far as IDing and making hits at this distance.  The farther out you can make the hit or discourage others, the safer you will be.

I completely agree, but you did specify "no sniping" in your initial post. So I assumed you meant no scopes - which is why I said no shots past 200 yards, since I cannot fathom verifying if a person is friend or foe with the naked eye past 200 yards. And that's with the binoculars I have.



GOOD ENOUGH...
My personal test is that I need to be good enough to beat someone with military experience.  We have a lot of war vets and not all are going to be good guys in SHTF. 

I agree, that worries me, too.

Those that don't stock on food will go get it.  The guy that has some training (i.e. average soldier) will be the biggest threat as they are head and shoulders above the average citizen plinker and they understand tacics.

BASICS TO HAVE DOWN PAT IMO:

• Make COM hits out to 500 yards
• Know how to clear a house with your carbine alone, & with a buddy
• Make COM hits while driving through a roadblock at 30 MPH
• Make COM hits from 25-200 yards from around a vehicle as cover, using standoff & prone methods
• Know your zero and ballistics well enough to make an eye box shot from 10-200 yards?
• Be able to perform reloads in less than 3 seconds from any position
• Be able make COM hits on moving targets up to 10MPH from 25-100 yards
• Be able to make a transition to secondary in less than 2 seconds when primary fails and get hits from 0-50 yards.
• Be able to clear any malfunction from "three little kittens" to case separation. Thanks Curahee for the guide rod tip!!!
• more as I think of them...

[USMC0331]

http://youtu.be/MSXAXtuqTSc

Good enough?  If you can't do better, you need to work on it.

I give these guys great kudos for doing the work. Video has a way of putting you in your place. 

What are the biggest lessons you learned from thy video concerning gear and tactics? 

I'll reserve my comments for now.  And for anyone that wants to run down their efforts... Put up or shut up. We learn from our own and others mistakes.

[Kentactic]

What are the biggest lessons you learned from thy video concerning gear and tactics? 

Get familiar with your gear. First guy fought his gear the whole way through.

[JohnyMac]

Was that a Mahendra tractor in the pole barn TG? 

Just some quick observations broken down by Guy I and Guy II:

Guy I
Pro
> Seemed to be in better shape than Guy II

Con
> That first AK was a piece of crap. I lost count how many times he had to clear it
> I didn't understand the whole concept of repositioning his rifle
> Handgun holster interfered with his kit.
> Clothes and kit seemed to be brand new - Stood out.

Guy II
Pro
> Primary Weapon didn't seem as problematic
> Didn't have "re-slinging" issues
> As Kentactic wrote above he seemed to be more familiar with his whole kit

Con
> He seemed to be huffing and puffing more than Guy I

Closing Comments:
I was impressed with these two guys. Pretty good "woods walk" they put together along with the CQ drills. It looked like Guy II had a select fire weapon which is nice but he went through ammo fast. All and all a great effort.

[rah45]

I have a couple of questions for anyone experienced:

1) They seemed to take a lot of time re-holstering their sidearms - would it be better to invest more in a Safariland style holster? Those seem to have a more sturdy frame and you can unlock/lock the holster with only one hand instead of two. I just got uncomfortable watching them take so long, devoting all their attention for several seconds to use both hands to unlock/lock the holster and get the firearm in it correctly in the first place. I have a Sig rotary holster that is somewhat like the Safari, and I can manipulate it when OC'ing without looking at it.

2) The "house" part of the course - it seems to work well with that SBR AK and a 16" AR variant, but for those of us with longer rifles, would it not be better to just use a sidearm the entire way through? I'm concerned about someone grabbing the barrel, having to expose more of your body, and taking longer to navigate through the house.

[JohnyMac]

Rah, I totally agree with your #2 comment. If it was me, I would have pushed my primary to the side and pulled my handgun for this CQ part of the woods walk.

PS. I also agree with your #1 comment. It was painful to watch.