BDU's for your Tribe?

[JohnyMac]

I have been discussing off-line with Gadget99 the dress of your tribe post SHTF and/or TEOTWAWKI. Specifically the discussion was revolving around camo BDU's (Battle Dress Uniform).

The discussion was getting to the point that I was learning things I never knew or even thought of. So I suggested that we continue the discussion on the forum. Gadget (A great source of information on many subjects) agreed.

We hope to pool information on this subject thread from all folks - Military, backpacking, hunting, fishing, mountain climbing folks.

So here was my original comment and then question to Gadget.  

In a SHTF scenario where many family and hand picked friends will make the redoubt (Cabin) our base I was thinking that it would be beneficial for the tribe to sport a unique standardized BDU. By having a standardized BDU I believe the benefits outweigh the negatives. Here are some of the benefits:

> Morale                      > Practicality - The military has already figured it out
> Easy Identification   > Durability
> Cost                         > Give a sense of professionalism

In my original question to Gadget I asked if there were any UK/EU BDU's available for cheap. I found out that the British Army in 2010 moved away from the standard DPM woodland to a new PCS-CU No. 8 woodland digital. This new PCS BDU focused more on a layering format used by many backpackers and mountain climbers than the old DPM.

And sure enough, looking at EBay there is a lot of British DPM's available for sale at good prices. The draw back is the shipping from the UK and the lack of availability in sizes for 220 lb men.  Apparently most british soldiers are in the 150-175 weight range.

So this is the background of a thread that Gadget and I would like to start. Lets focus on the following things as this thread proceeds.

1) Does it make sense to set up a standardized dress or uniform for your tribe,
2) What do you use/recommend for layering in the summer to the winter. Base to outer layers,
3) What camo pattern is best for your AO and why. Maybe no camo is better, and
4) Sites that you recommend visiting to order your tribes BDU's?

Gadget, your up     

[gadget99]

I will kick it off a bit.

Standardisation makes sense for many reasons. Although I must point out that it is not a necessity. It can assist in creating a sense of team. It can also assist in procurement when you can buy in bulk. Much can be said for it. There is no real down side to doing so really.

I will be posting info on what the Army issued prior ACU and with luck what they are issuing now.

There have been many advances in uniform tech as of late. But don't get wrapped up in breaking a budget trying to replicate what the troops use. Concentrate on the reasons behind the different items.

As a perfect example. The under Armor layer has come a long way. The prime specific is that the layer closest to tour skin needs to be moisture Wicking. This is applicable for all seasons. After that you are good. Now the old BDU's came in a heavy and lightweight version. I personally only wore the heavy version in garrison during the winter. The reason is that they did not dry out quick enough in the field. You  will always get wet in the bush. Whether from sweating of good old mother nature.

In the winter how you layer and dress is very important. If you are going to be static and not exerting yourself then it is less critical. Just pile on the layers and go with it. Just remember to layer breathable layers.

If you are patrolling or exerting yourself then get most of those layers off. You want on just enough to keep you from risking hypothermia on an extended stop in your patrol so that you do not sweat to much into your layers. It is a balancing act. I will follow up with what I always wore for different season in the field. Please remember that you must always hydrate almost as much as you would in the heat. Many have learned hard lessons on that one.

In cold wet conditions Goretex type clothing can really be your friend. We used the jackets when we could get them and hardly used the trousers. If it was not raining hard and just was a drizzle we didn't bother with rain gear when on patrol. Carrying all our gear kept us warm. My Alice load bearing webbing setup alone could average 35 pounds most of the time. Add a Weapon and your rucksack and you can get the picture. You won't be to that extreme hopefully, yet wanted to provide a perspective.

For the summer when it is going to be hot. Remember first of all. Moisture Wicking T-shirt is a must again. The other thing is that long sleeves are a must it provides protection from insects and the sun. Yeah it takes getting used to. Just keep hydrated and drive on.

I will post much more as the thread goes on. So before I end this post I want to take about the oh so very important subject of feet.

Socks..... Big time. Take care of your feet. If you don't, you will regret it. There are many new fabrics out there, yet I suggest taking a note of the Army use of wool socks. Wool is used for the reason that it does wick sweat acceptably and still maintains much of it thermal properties when wet. If you have a wool allergy or just can't stand wearing wool. Then do what we did. Wear cut off nylons between your skin and the wool sock or polypropylene socks under the wool sock. Always check your feet and if on a real long patrol, Try and work in Tactical breaks where people can do a change of sock into your plan.

There is a massive amount of stuff I can write on this whole subject.

Oops..... I forgot the Camo subject.

If Realtree or Mossy Oak type stuff was not massively expensive over hear. I would be using it. Here are my reasons.

- Looking at Walmart prices on the stuff it fits well into an acceptable budget.
- The Camo patterns of such are superior to any military pattern I'm my opinion.
- That type of pattern provides the group with the ability to do the grey man routine in much of the countryside. (Just some hunters.... Not and organized armed group)
- This provides a good all around compromise that allows for the most flexibility.

I will add more later. I will also try and post some packing lists so you can see what we carried and where, when we went to into the bush.

Also remember the golden rule of "one is none" you need to have more than just one set of uniform per person. I suggest for Base uniform a minimum of three sets. Lots of socks though.

Take care for now.


Edited typos for clarity ~ s-k

[Kbop]

interesting topic - thanks

Mossy Oak in my neck of the woods will make you blend in here - even in the local big box store.  so, you want your gang tribal gear to stand out.  is a military pattern the social signaling you are trying to project?

if projection of authority, morale and ease of identification are important - why not use a specific hat or arm band or a sash - nice historical precedent and you can change the color daily to keep people from mimicking you too easily.  your normal daily wear can then conform to your needs - with body armor, without - cold weather or warm.

if complete uniformity is the goal, is it to do the whole us & them signaling?

gang tattoos anyone

I get standardization.  a kind of redundancy that gives you flexibility. 
I think Military field togs are easy to work in and comfortable. 
unless everything lines up - in most SHTF scenarios i can think of - then you might have uniformity for a while.  As time goes on it will start to drift and change.  then you are back to the old historical expedients.  That's why i mentioned the sash, hat idea earlier.

Me, i like BDU's and Chocolate Chips.  i found them in my closet when i changed jobs. comfy to do outside work in.  I'm not part of a largish tribe here so we would have to come up with another option.

[JohnyMac]

Great start Gadget. I told you folks that he has a lot of knowledge on this subject and many others Looking forward to your next installment.

Kbop, other than what what goes into cookies, what is "Chocolate Chips?"

Also Kbop you bring up a very good point or as Gadget like to call it "Gray Man" . "Don't be the fly on the wall but the wall."

As I have pointed out in past posts, one of the main problems with the Burns, OR. protests was the weapons and military garb for all to see. The participants stood out and shouted "I am a domestic terrorist!"

The military allso understand, how important being a Gray Man is ala Jade Helm. The big goal of the training was blending into a community.

Great start to an interesting discussion. I would hope some ladies on the forum jump in. Hey you mountain climbers and back packers have a host of experiences from your treks.

One last thing: As Gadget writes a good source (Which I would never have thought about) is Waly's World. Here is another good site with reasonable prices and selection.

What are your favorite sites?

[gadget99]

Hi All,

Here is the latest off of the Ft. Benning Infantry School website, what the initial issue is for a troop coming into the Army.

The CIIP will issue IET Soldiers their full clothing bag issue upon arrival to Ft. Benning’s 30th AG reception Bn. This is done in 2 phases. Phase I is the issue of all clothing and equipment needed by the Soldier, to start his/her training. If a IET Soldier arrives after duty hours, or too late in the day to go through a full Phase I issue, there is a Night issue that will get the Soldier all he/she is required to get through the night and the next morning before processing through Phase I issue.

The Night issue consists of:

Duffle bag - 1 each
Barrack bag - 1 each
Short sleeve PT shirts - 3 each
Long sleeve PT shirts - 2 each
Pair of black PT trunks - 3 each
Sweatshirts - 2 each
Sweatpants - 2 each
Towels - 4 each
The Phase I issue process consists of:

The Soldiers arrive at the CIIP at 1300 each work day and are lined up in roster number sequence. They are filed in the room seated from front to rear filling all seats; they are given an IRM scan form and then briefed. They will also receive (7) socks green, (7) sock liner black, (1) rigger belt, (1) pair of goggles, (3) flags, (3) US Army tabs, (1) identification tag silencer, and (1) ID chain. The Briefing consists of the issue procedures, the items that they will receive, exchange procedures, maintenance of the uniforms, and the service that they can expect to receive. Note: The Phase I Soldiers are briefed by the 30th AG processors.

They are then instructed to remove their shoes, and to undress from the waist up, leaving only their shirt next to the body on, placing everything in their duffle bag. They will then proceed through the listed stations where they will be fitted and receive the items they will need to complete training. During the issue process of Phase I items, some of these items fit snuggly; therefore it is required that the Soldiers have already had all their medical processing and haircuts, and also have been able to take care of personal hygiene, since some Soldiers will be trying on many different sizes of the same item to ensure proper fit.

The Phase I stations:
Station 1- issued (7) pair of sand briefs, and (7) sand t-shirts. (Winter Issue: Poly Pros, light and heavy weight.)

Station 2 – (1) black gloves, (2) pair insert, (2) patrol caps, elbow and knee pads. Individual measurements and the size prediction chart will be utilized to determine sizes issued.

Station 3 – Trousers, Army Combat Uniform (ACU). Personnel will receive 4 pairs of ACU trousers. Individual measurements and the size prediction chart will be utilized to determine sizes issued.

Station 4 – Coat, Army Combat Uniform (ACU). Personnel will receive 4 each ACU coats and (1) ACU Gore-Tex jacket.

Station 5 – Boots. Personnel will receive (1) pair of hot weather boots and (1) pair of temperate weather boots. Measurements from the foot measuring device will be utilized to assist in determining the size to be issued.

Station 6- Shake down. The purpose of shake down is to ensure that each individual had all clothing in authorized quantities. After all clothing had been checked, the individual will sign his copy of the IRM scan sheet. CIIP personnel conducting the shake down will collect these forms and turn them into the Administration Office for processing.

This process is done on the first full day of processing, to ensure that the Soldier gets a chance to wear the equipment and clothing to ensure proper fit and serviceability prior to shipping to their training unit. This allows for seasoned professionals to view the fit and wear of the uniform and clothing, and the troops to wear the boots to ensure proper fit, without causing blisters. If there is a problem with any of the issue prior to shipping to the training units, the individual can return to the CIIP with 30th AG processors, to exchange equipment / clothing / boots for the proper fitting ones.

[gadget99]

Here is a good late 90's Packing list for deployment.

[gadget99]

And here is one produced for units going to the Joint Readiness Training Center.

[gadget99]

Great start Gadget. I told you folks that he has a lot of knowledge on this subject and many others Looking forward to your next installment. I will share as much as possible. Please anyone can ask questions. There is so much that I could share and questions will help me share it.

Kbop, other than what what goes into cookies, what is "Chocolate Chips?" These are the Desert BDU's you may have seen reperesented in the first Gulf war and beyond until the ACU's came into issue.

Also Kbop you bring up a very good point or as Gadget like to call it "Gray Man" . "Don't be the fly on the wall but the wall." Just my thoughs on it also. The only reason I have alot of surplus clothing is that I could get it REAL cheap in bulk. As an example I buy British Army self wicking brown t-shirts in lots of 30 of mixed sizes at £0.95 each. So our stuff is a bit of mix and match. The considerations for me were. Price, functionality and durability.

As I have pointed out in past posts, one of the main problems with the Burns, OR. protests was the weapons and military garb for all to see. The participants stood out and shouted "I am a domestic terrorist!" Oh lord do I agree here. Wear Multicam and looking all tacticool will buy you trouble.

The military allso understand, how important being a Gray Man is ala Jade Help. The big goal of the training was blending into a community. Yep

Great start to an interesting discussion. I would hope some ladies on the forum jump in. Hey you mountain climbers and back packers have a host of experiences from your treks.

One last thing: As Gadget writes a good source (Which I would never have thought about) is Waly's World. Here is another good site with reasonable prices and selection.

What are your favorite sites?

Hi All.

See my replies in Bold above.

[CJS06]

Great topic for lots of thought. 

In most cases my personal gear (clothing, boots, etc) is derived more from my interest in climbing/mountaineering. Interestingly much of it is mirrored in what my brother in NSW has been issued or acquires personally for training and deployments with mainly color differences.

In cool to cold weather I start with base wicking base lasers of poly or wool base mainly from Patagonia (I have a good deal with them). My preference for all base tops and long bottoms is wool. For a second or mid  layer I like to use a poly material like the Patagonia R1 or a wool flannel shirt or both. If more insulation is required my next layer is lightweight compressible down for the top. For an outer layer some like to use soft shells but I prefer to go right to a med weight gore-tex type jacket. This is great for use as a windproof cover or in wet conditions. Only in extreme wet do I use a light weight shell on my lower body as I tend to overheat quickly in them. It is not until it starts getting quite cold that I tend to put much insulation on my lower body. In very cold I use a compressible bivy parka and pants of a down/synthetic blend. For my hands and head I have a combination of lightweight gloves, hats  through down mittens and thick hats.

In warm/Hot weather I wear a light weight wool base shirt (long sleeve), and sometimes only that on my upper body.While climbing or hiking I wear lightweight synthetic pants, but for the activity/ function we are discussing such as training or possibly garrison type activity I wear Crye G3  combat pants.  For just working around or general wear I do not use the knee pads but I do put them in for training/patrolling type activity.  These dry quickly when wet, do not get overly hot in warm weather, are very durable for serious abuse. My other pants that I wear quite a bit are Carhart work pants. These are also very durable and are much better for not drawing attention when out and about.

For my feet I wear mainly smartwool socks in different weights depending on the climate.  They have excellent wicking characteristics and retain their insulation when wet.

If I only had one pair of footwear I really like Asolo Fugitive GTX Boots.  They are light enough for warm weather, provide excellent support and when combined with a pair of gaiters are very solid winter performers.  That said I am a bit of a shoe horse and have a number of different boots/ shoes that I like from basic Vans hi tops to Scarpa mountaineering boots. 

Color wise I tend to favor Dark or earth tones or grey but seem to have a disproportionate number of blue tops right now.  My Crye and Carhart pants are all tan/coyote, and my outer layers are generally black or dark grey with the exception of a Goretex parka I have in Woodland.  My chest rigs, plate carrier, belt, packs are in a mix of multicam, coyote, or black. Other than my Chest Rig/Plate carrier most of my gear comes from the climbing outdoor industry which I have found to be much more comfortable, flexible in use and durable than much of the "tactical" or mil surp gear available (big generalization...not always).

I would say that there is no consistency among the gear that my "tribe" has.  I feel that function over form is more important. With the disparity in our sizes/shapes and without a dedicated quatermaster, I dont worry about others personal gear just what works for me. Others will determine what works best with their body size /type. That said for all of our differences we really do look kind of all of the same. A mix between a deployment pic and one of a climbing expedition. Most of the stuff is a mix of Patagonia, Arcteryx, OR. etc.  In all honesty most of us have deals where we can acquire this stuff for pro pricing otherwise I personally would never pay going prices for it. As Patagonia has the contract for NSW I have been able to get a bunch of their base- mid layers cheap through the surplus market.

The concept of team building, mutual support and morale that commonality of dress provides is interesting.
I am not a fan of cammo head to toe, no matter what pattern it is. It can carry as many negatives as far as what it projects, as the positives it can provide, both externally to the group as well as internally.  Worst case scenario we will be needing to establish a community not just a military/ defense unit. As Kbop mentioned there a various simple methods of ID that can be employed.

Chris

[Kbop]

Kbop, other than what what goes into cookies, what is "Chocolate Chips?"

JM, Gadget is 100% correct about chocolate chips.


i like the gray man thing.  Don't be a target.

[JohnyMac]

Thx Kbop. 

I am currently reading 4th Generation Warfare Handbook by William Lind and Greg Thiele. In short this is how the Army changed it's tactics in Iraq by moving from a "kick in your door and submit" philosophy to one of blending in with the locals.

Part of the strategy was to actually rent rooms from local family's and billet soldiers vs. having a traditional base. Another part of the strategy was to go Gray Man when off duty. No uniforms and weapons to be conceal carry.

The Jade Helm exercise this past summer was all about this new approach to occupation. The question is: Will it be used here?

Anyway, I am getting off topic thread.

Some great stuff gentlemen. Thanks for your pictures and list attachments Gadget. Thanks Chris for your list of what you wear in the different seasons. All good stuff.

So Thatguy, you are a backpacker: What are your thoughts?

May I also suggest that we add some links to favorite articles and retailers.

[crudos]

This is a fascinating thread so far. I personally have very little camo of any sorts. For a long time, I was of the opinion since I've never served in the military, I have no right to dress-up as a soldier. Still think that mostly. From a design standpoint, think multicam and it's variations is some really cutting edge stuff and works in all sorts of environments. Anyway, just my couple of cents, fwiw.

[JohnyMac]

I have a lot of camo. Most in hunting patterns, e.g. Advantage Timber and Mossy Oak. I have a pair or two of surplus BDU's in Woodland pattern that I use for work around the property. They are very comfortable.

In town up at the cabin and in surrounding communities, hunting camo patterns are the norm. These are worn by men & women alike. Heck MrsMac wore a pair of camo slacks yesterday. They were your Chocolate chip pattern Kbop. I wore a Advantage Timber pattern shirt as a cover, a Mossy Oak billed cap and a pair of normal Carhart jeans.

We fit right in. 

[Nemo]

Heck MrsMac wore a pair of camo slacks yesterday. They were your Chocolate chip pattern Kbop.

She is just teasing you and trying to instigate being bitten.

Nemo

[JohnyMac]

Maybe Nemo. 

[APX808]

Nice discussion gents.

I have Multicam ACUs and woodland BDUs, multicam is the best for my AO, but I'll never get my wife to get one of those, even less wear it.

Anyway, and considering a great part of us live in urbanized areas I would stay away from wearing all camo as that turns you into a walking Christmas tree, and a group of walking Christmas trees for sure will draw attention.
Besides local military wear the same or extremely similar uniforms, so they won't like you to walk around dressed like them and you won't be able to differentiate them from your people.

So... What could we do?

I like the gray man principle, try to dress low key, khaki or green pants with a civilian jacket and carry in your backpack the camo stuff.
Having a group all dressing the same that is all khaki and all same color jackets doesn't sounds right either and will draw attention too.

So maybe something you can use just when needed, like color armbands, I used them many times, they aren't the best to spot your friends but they work.

Have you guys used other kind of "just in case", easily concealable identification marks?

[gadget99]

Nice discussion gents.

I have Multicam ACUs and woodland BDUs, multicam is the best for my AO, but I'll never get my wife to get one of those, even less wear it.

Anyway, and considering a great part of us live in urbanized areas I would stay away from wearing all camo as that turns you into a walking Christmas tree, and a group of walking Christmas trees for sure will draw attention.
Besides local military wear the same or extremely similar uniforms, so they won't like you to walk around dressed like them and you won't be able to differentiate them from your people.

So... What could we do?

I like the gray man principle, try to dress low key, khaki or green pants with a civilian jacket and carry in your backpack the camo stuff.
Having a group all dressing the same that is all khaki and all same color jackets doesn't sounds right either and will draw attention too.

So maybe something you can use just when needed, like color armbands, I used them many times, they aren't the best to spot your friends but they work.

Have you guys used other kind of "just in case", easily concealable identification marks?

Just a thought on that one.

The best one I can think of is a piece of headgear.

It is easy to carry and keep hidden until required. A simple and inexpensive cap would do the trick really well.

Buy something functional and robust of course, yet it is the perfect item for identification.

[JohnyMac]

I was thinking the same thing Gadget. Headgear would be the best due to it's 360 degree visibility.

We have used this form of headgear

Show content

to great success.

More and more as we discuss it, I am liking the gray man concept. Seriously, headgear make the best sense in an urban environment. I wonder what the IRA used as an identifying mark during Ireland's march to independence from Brittan. Maybe Gadget you might have access to that info being do to your current AO.

 

[gadget99]

Easy answer on that one JM.

Here was the distictive IRA Headgear.

[gadget99]

I like how much this topic has come out with some great contributions.

The form of the uniform is so much less important than the function in my opinion.

As I said I have in retrospect a large amount of clothing. Mainly due to being a cheapskate to the extreme and buying it surplus in large lots. The goal was to insure that my 4 person family had everything I thought we would need in an emergency situation.

I have found that I feel good about the fact that I have enough to share out when people end up gravitating to us. This meets my intent that my place in this world has never been just about me. It is about the watchdog that I really am.

So back to the subject.

What you wear and carry to wear must sustain you no matter what mother nature throws at you. Trust me that she will throw you curve balls every step of the way.

Cheers

[JoJo]

Nice discussion gents.

I have Multicam ACUs and woodland BDUs, multicam is the best for my AO, but I'll never get my wife to get one of those, even less wear it.

Anyway, and considering a great part of us live in urbanized areas I would stay away from wearing all camo as that turns you into a walking Christmas tree, and a group of walking Christmas trees for sure will draw attention.
Besides local military wear the same or extremely similar uniforms, so they won't like you to walk around dressed like them and you won't be able to differentiate them from your people.

 

So... What could we do?

I like the gray man principle, try to dress low key, khaki or green pants with a civilian jacket and carry in your backpack the camo stuff.
Having a group all dressing the same that is all khaki and all same color jackets doesn't sounds right either and will draw attention too.

So maybe something you can use just when needed, like color armbands, I used them many times, they aren't the best to spot your friends but they work.

Have you guys used other kind of "just in case", easily concealable identification marks?

I agree with you but the BDU I would choose would be khaki pants and blue shirt with a yellow star burst on the back. This would work best in an urban environment.
Just kidding

[JohnyMac]

So folks, if you could share some links here of your favorite clothing outfitters. 

[CJS06]

www.patagonia.com
www.rei.com
www.ems.com
www.tacticaldistributors.com
www.skdtac.com
www.wildthingsgear.com
www.cryeprecision.com

Its all about the sales, clearance sections or special deals.

[JohnyMac]

  CJS!