Drones for security augmentation

[pkveazey]

I don't have a drone but I like the idea of having them. To me, they are like Radios. They are just paper weights until you need one. Then they are worth their weight in gold.

[Jackalope]

 I played recently with a DJI Phantom 3.  I don't know the payload capacity, but it's a sizeable drone, large enough that I wouldn't want one to run into me.  It seems stable enough, and it has a beginner mode, which limits the altitude, speed and range of the aircraft.  I understand there is a payload adapter available which would allow the drone operator to release a payload from the aircraft.  I didn't do any filming with the aircraft since I was busy flying it, but from what I could see, the video quality was excellent. 

     I was surprised by how loud it was.  The drone could be used to herd animals, or to frighten away predators.  Anyways it's an interesting device.  The maximum flight time on one battery is about 25 minutes, and supposedly a range of about 1/2 mile.  It can be programmed with GPS coordinates and then programmed to follow the pre-planned track.  This track following would be useful for perimeter patrols.  Seeing it's not the latest model, a full outfit will run $300-400.

 

[JohnyMac]

Thx Jackalope. Mmmm, I wonder which one is the quietest out there?

[patriotman]

Thx Jackalope. Mmmm, I wonder which one is the quietest out there?

I have done some half hearted googles on this because I would want a quiet one for observation even if I sacrificed the ability to have any payload capacity on it

[Nemo]

What is the recharge time on these things.  The 20 minute flight time works out to X minutes recharge time.  What is X?

Are batteries replaceable?  How big are they.  Cost for carrying a couple back up?  Batteries for control box.  What happens if they get off flight path and run out of juice into a hard landing in a hay field or cattle pasture?

I guess you can tell I know dayum little about these things.

Nemo

[CJS06]

I just spent a long weekend out in New Mexico doing alpine patrol and long distance with Follow Through Consulting.  There were guys in the class from Skillset magazine as well as a video guy shooting promo stuff for Oakley.  For 70% of the class these guys had drones up overhead.  After a couple of days you get numb to the sound, but that incessant buzz can be pretty annoying.  I do feel that their nose from most commercially available units makes them some level of a liability, though they have a definite upside.

Chris

[Jackalope]

What is the recharge time on these things.  The 20 minute flight time works out to X minutes recharge time.  What is X?

Are batteries replaceable?  How big are they.  Cost for carrying a couple back up?  Batteries for control box.  What happens if they get off flight path and run out of juice into a hard landing in a hay field or cattle pasture?

I guess you can tell I know dayum little about these things.

Nemo

    I'll try to answer most of your questions.  Intuitively, the larger, and heavier the battery, the longer the flight time.  Most batteries use a lithium base, as they provide a higher energy storage versus almost any other type of battery.  The AR Parrot drones have a 12 minute flight time, and typically it'll take 2-3 hours to recharge a battery.  The AR Parrot drones have a very limited carrying capacity, and the total weight of the AR drone is just about 13 ounces.  Replacement batteries run $20-30.  And it takes maybe a minute to replace the battery.   Battery is a bit larger than a typical 9 vDC battery.  The AR Parrot drones were/are used by French SF, and can be controlled by a iphone or an ipad.  If they run out of juice they drop where ever they are.

     The DJI Phantom drones are literally several generations more advanced than the AR Parrot drones.  I'm guessing that a typical DJI Phantom weighs in close to four pounds.  The battery probably weighs about a pound, and it's about the size of a 12-15 round .45 handgun magazine.  Flight time is about 25  minutes, and it takes literally 10 seconds to swap batteries.  Replacement batteries run $70-80 and they take a couple of hours to recharge,  It's possible to get a ganged charger, which will allow you recharge 3-4 batteries at once.  The control box is used in conjunction with an Android or Apple phone or tablet.  The control box battery is good for three hours of continuous usage, and it recharges with a micro USB port.  The control box is used to control drone movement, while the Android or Apple device is used for video, and telemetry data.  If the drone battery reaches a critical minimum voltage, it will return to base.  If it is unable to successfully return to base it will land itself as quickly as possible.  The DJI drones use GPS data for positioning, though it is possible to operate it manually without it,  Both drones have altitude sensors, and they'll automatically compensate for wind.

     I'd say the AR Parrot drone is much quieter than the DJI drone, but the AR drone is also much lighter and more fragile.  If the drones are flown at a high altitude, their noise is much less noticeable.  However, with altitude comes winds, and you may reduce video performance, due to loss of detail.

     At work, they've lost at least one DJI Mavik Pro.  I'm not sure of the circumstances, I suspect the battery was depleted, and it fell into a river.  The drone was a total loss.

     So drones have a lot of potential benefits, but they also have limitations.  You just need to determine as to the best use of the tool, and apply it judiciously.

[Jackalope]

   Parrot is again changing the drone marketplace with a new thermal camera model for under $2000.  It'll be available next month.  Here's an article about it: https://www.cnet.com/news/parrot-anafi-thermal-drone-pairs-flir-thermal-and-4k-cameras-for-1900/    It will have a 25 minute flight time, like most current drone models.  This would be ideal for night time patrolling. 

[JohnyMac]

I just made this topic/subject a sticky. It's to good to let it fall into the archives.

[patriotman]

Being currently located in a suburb, I would love one to peer up over houses in surrounding streets to get an idea of what is going on. Ambient suburban noise might help mask the sound and with a quieter than average drone I think it would be a pretty sneaky force multiplier for me. Just have it rise slightly over a roof top and boom.

[Jackalope]

  I think the Parrot drone with the thermal camera used at night with a high altitude would be the ultimate.  Get it up high enough so the rotor sound is diminished, and I've found Parrot drones to be quieter anyways.  The thermal camera would easily find unshielded targets, even at a high altitude, especially with cooler night time ambient temperatures.  Intruders would never know they had been detected.  Plus, using it at night would make the drone a less visible aerial target.  However, if there's wind, fog, or precipitation; the drone is grounded.  I'll wait for the reviews, once they're available.

[Todd]

My guys run DJI Mavic Pro and DJI Mavic Mini drones.

The Mavic Pros are used deliberately for planned mapping and aerial reconnaissance, and the Mavic Minis are carried on 2nd line equipment in a belt pouch and are simply used to "look over the next hill" as required.

Being DJI products, both types are susceptible to interception and subsequent drone/operator geolocation using the DJI Aeroscope system, but there are hacks out there which turn off the built-in Drone ID broadcasts to DJI and allow for more private operation of the aircraft. It's worth punching "NoLimitDrones" into your search engine of choice and seeing what current (paid) hacks are available for DJI drones.

I have gotten 6500 meters out of the DJI Mavic Pro and they have on average a 20 minute flight time. It'll do 4K video and you can pre-plan missions for mapping or aerial recon using separate apps like "Litchi". Incidentally, the Mavic Pros will only fall into a lake/river/enemy encampment, etc. due to battery depletion if you are running a pre-planned mission and don't get your math right. In normal operation, the aircraft will automatically return to the launch point when it's bingo power.
I typically carry the drone, controller, a phone, control cable and spare and 4 x batteries (80 minutes total flight time) in protective cases inside small silnylon drybags inside a claymore pouch for field use. For FOB/TOC use, add a 12v power supply for recharging batteries and the controller, and maybe a toughbook and 12v power adapter for analyzing and exploiting imagery collected by the drone.

The little Mavic Mini kit of drone with battery, controller, USB cable, phone, battery charge caddy and 4 x spare batteries will fit in a canteen cover. I carry the kit in a 200mm DSLR lens pouch inside a small silnylon drybag before placing it in the canteen cover. In normal conditions, each Mavic Mini battery lasts between 25 and 30 minutes so multiply that by five batteries and you have up to 2 and a half hour's total flight time. Max I have taken the Mini out to is around 3000m. There are mission planning apps available for the Mavic Mini so you COULD theoretically use it for mapping and aerial photography, but I find it better for local reconnaissance beyond the next terrain feature. The awesome thing about the Mavic Mini is it's all charged off of USB. The controller and battery caddy use USB so all you need is a USB powerbank in your ruck and you can recharge (inside the ruck) the controller, batteries and phone while on the move or in your overnight lying up position. The bigger Mavic Pro needs 12v or domestic 120/240v AC power.

Both drones sound like little flying electric weed whackers but the Mavic Mini is all but silent above about 70 meters altitude and the Mavic Pro needs about 100 meters altitude. If you suspect your adversary may be wearing Peltors then increase altitude by half again.

They are useful, but only for day flying in relatively good conditions. I have operated the Mavic Pro in a downpour and it worked well enough but the imagery was unusable due to water obscuring the lens. I haven't flown the Mini in the rain. The Mavic Mini doesn't like windy conditions at all, but the Mavic Pro is powerful enough to handle moderately strong winds. If it stops forward motion or slides all over the sky by itself, then it's too windy hahaha.

Night time capability using thermal would be awesome, but having worked with the more modern Mavic 2 Pro Enterprise thermal imagery, it's my opinion that it's only really good for utility work, not SAR or "tactical" operations at night. It's not much better than one of those FLIR Seek One thermal cameras you plug into the bottom of your phone.

If you're facing a technologically-sophisticated state adversary then don't fly consumer drones. The mere fact that you have a phone with you which broadcasts its location via the baseband (cell radio) and also by wifi and bluetooth when turned on is enough to get you DF'd and taken out. Sadly, most drones require a phone or tablet to use and the two above definitely do.

Finally, contrary to popular belief neither the Mavic Pro or Mavic Mini require an internet connection to work. You only need the internet if you want google earth imagery on your phone.

I hope the above is of use to someone.

[JohnyMac]

Great stuff Todd.

The only familiarity I have with drones is through FeedingFreedom. Actually, I have a friend in NNJ (Yes I have to pay him to be my friend) uses his drone for the obvious fun but also for antenna placement. Works like a charm.

A drone would be a great addition to any patrol or defense of a redoubt. The phone thing does make me a bit paranoid though. 

[Trail Ninja]

I didn't read all the posts but I didn't see any mention of proximity to air traffic/airports. As you all prolly know, at least with DJI and other geofence technology and tracking, your drone's exact locationis known . However, I've been out of the loop for two years, but the tech keeps getting more sophisticated - Beware.

[FeedingFreedom]

I have 2 now, a Mavic Mini and a Mavic Air 2. Buying a Mavic 3 soon, just deciding if I want to spring for the thermal version (Mavic 3 Enterprise). I also use a lot of software for mission planning and image/data processing and analysis. For example, I use Dronelink to plan missions and fly them without further input, I have a bunch of "pre-cooked" stuff set up for my usual AO. I can do 3D scans of the ground and buildings, which turn out surprisingly good. Or I can just launch the drone and have it perform a "patrol" on a given route. The batteries on the MA2 last about 20-25 minutes, depending on factors such as speed or winds aloft. Dronelink still allows the "Return to Home" functionality of the drone, if a mission requires more than one battery, it will return for a change then fly back and continue where it left off. It's paid software, and not cheap (my current plan is $480/year), so if you're not using it to make money, might be better off sticking with the DJI app to fly.

Just another tool in the box, to be used when/where appropriate. Noise is a concern, as is visibility or the possibility of following the drone back to its control point. The new Mavic Mini 3 Pro is supposed to be much quieter than the others, although once the drone is above 200' AGL, you really don't hear it, and it's a hard sound to localize. With the gray color of the DJI drones, they're pretty darn hard to spot above 100', and almost impossible at 400'.

And for everyone (joking or not) talking about shooting drones down, it'd be a lot harder than you think. And if it's not a WROL situation, shooting a drone will get you in significant hot water, as it would fall under 18 USC 32, the Aircraft Sabotage Act. Shooting a drone is, in the eyes of the law, very much the same as shooting at an airliner. And while we're talking about laws, you do not control the airspace above your property. The FAA does. If someone is using a drone to actually harass or spy, that would be a crime, but just flying over someone's land is not. Just trying to be realistic instead of being a keyboard commando.

As far as RF security, unless everything is shut down, your signals will disappear in the RF soup that currently exists. And the only people with the ability to exploit that are going to be national-level agencies. DJI does have a few controllers with a built-in display, and I've heard that they're really good. But my old eyes prefer the biggest screen I can get, so I fly with an iPad now. Had to get a bracket to mount it on the controller, and a longer USB cable, but it's surprisingly well-balanced and not tiring to fly with. And I can actually see things on the ground when I'm flying.

I just have them for photography and mapping, might take the mini with me on a patrol, but the infrastructure required for sustained flight operations isn't going to help your pack weight.

[JohnyMac]

Great update FF. 

My big thing about a drone is flight time. To patrol my AO, and do it right, I would need 45 - 60 minutes. I know that one has a return/resume feature butttt.

Lets chat more at Field Day this year.

Thanks for posting 

[Felix]

A wife's friend suffered the tragic loss of her husband when he face/head planted into a rock after coming off his mountain bike.   He had only recently retired from Railroad (Engineer).     Anywho, he had a Mavic Pro and she asked if I wanted it (for $700?)   Yup, thank you.
Some of the batteries are dead or weak but I've flown it around the compound a wee bit.   Lots to learn and when I can spring for some new batteries (EXPENSIVE!) I'd like to set it up to run a set course, circling my AO using perhaps 75% of its battery capacity each patrol (the other 25% allowing for varying winds aloft, loiter time if something found).   Right now, it has only regular camera for visual light but I would also like to fit it with thermal (also spendy).
Terrain here is long valleys separated by ridges perhaps 150' above average low points, all covered in Ponderosa pine.    The least suspicion or concern, up goes the drone on its preprogrammed flight plan.
Does this sound like anything anyone here has done?
Any experiences that might give a guess at how feasible and/or effective this might be?

[FeedingFreedom]

Right now, it has only regular camera for visual light but I would also like to fit it with thermal (also spendy).

Any experiences that might give a guess at how feasible and/or effective this might be?

You're not going to be able to fit a thermal camera on that, the gimbal isn't made for it and the firmware is totally different for the thermal models.

You'd be better off with some cameras or at least motion sensors around the property, covering points of ingress. You'd need a dedicated pilot to continue tracking anything you saw, while you position yourself to intercept. Some of us may be nimble enough to walk and chew gum at the same time, but walking and flying a drone is sketchy at best.

Short of thermal, consumer drones are all but useless at night, and almost all of them are not useable in rain, in very cold conditions, and in high wind.


One thing that I forgot to add is that I bought a "dropper" mechanism for my MA2, it works by turning on the landing light which activates a servo and pulls the retention pin. Max weight is around a pound, and flight time suffers accordingly. But it's pretty darn handy to be able to drop a line exactly where you want it for pulling a tree over or installing wire antennas in trees. You could also use it to drop messages, although that might attract unwanted attention.

If money is no object, DJI does make a "dock" for the Matrice 30, which is basically a garage for the drone. Even has a weather station on it to check if conditions permit flight.

[Felix]

"So hypothetically, if you acquired a drone that falls into weight class where it should be registered, would you register the drone?  If not, why not?  If so, why?  This is purely hypothetical... "

Purely hypothetically, I could have purchased a used Mavic Pro and hypothetically flew it briefly around the compound.    Was forwarded paperwork to update registry but have been stuck in "hypothetical" so...
 Now _IF_ I actually had one (a Mavic Pro) and _IF_ i programmed it to fly a  surveillance  loop over my AO, why would the Feds need to see "registration"?      What legitimate, constructive purpose would this fulfill as opposed to a possible downside of government interference to their ends, not mine?
Heck, I'm still trying to figure best way to procure a hypothetical thermal scope without leaving a breadcrumb trail of financial records leading straight to my door ( like suppressors do).

[Sir John Honeybucket]

re: registration, the WHY question.

Politicians covet the sole use of force to be available only to their minions.  Because drones are a force multiplier, hence the regulations for registration.  Similarly to the regulations prohibiting encryption on the ham bands....

Massa don like his slaves a whisperin an he  especially don like them able to fight back....[/size]

[ChristWarrior]

I would like to humbly add my 2 cents, as of late, requirements have come out from the FAA to have your drone ID be broadcasted and DJI has complied.  I have two of them and they are incredible to fly relative to ease, just remember altitude is your friend. Remember that and you should be alright, just keep in mind 400' AGL is a hard limit via FAA.  I live in a populated area and have to comply with said rules of the FAA, also I'm licensed.  Having said all that, with the idea of being the "grey man" and staying off the radar, the older drones whether it's DJI or otherwise, don't have the ID broadcast.  Read between the lines.......

Given my experience in airplanes getting my drone license was a breeze and I also had grandiose ideas of making money with drones.  I don't by the way....make $$ with it.  Too many rules and at my age I'm not fond of rules.  Now bear in mind the FAA fines can be substantial in cost so beware.  Best rule of thumb is just don't fly in controlled air space (Airports) and you should be okay. The fastest way to get the FAA on your arse is flying over people making trouble or invading privacy of folks. 

All that said, the views I get from my DJI drones are incredible.  I'm looking at some 3D printed drones with a cheaper Thermal solution, NVG's are good, but if I could also launch a bird with thermal!  Guess the security aspect is always in my mind. 

No offense intended ever to anyone, just info I've learned over the years.
PS: If you can see it you will most likely retain control, if you can't see the drone then you most likely will be relying on the "return to home" feature. Have fun!

[ChristWarrior]

I have 2 now, a Mavic Mini and a Mavic Air 2. Buying a Mavic 3 soon, just deciding if I want to spring for the thermal version (Mavic 3 Enterprise). I also use a lot of software for mission planning and image/data processing and analysis. For example, I use Dronelink to plan missions and fly them without further input, I have a bunch of "pre-cooked" stuff set up for my usual AO. I can do 3D scans of the ground and buildings, which turn out surprisingly good. Or I can just launch the drone and have it perform a "patrol" on a given route. The batteries on the MA2 last about 20-25 minutes, depending on factors such as speed or winds aloft. Dronelink still allows the "Return to Home" functionality of the drone, if a mission requires more than one battery, it will return for a change then fly back and continue where it left off. It's paid software, and not cheap (my current plan is $480/year), so if you're not using it to make money, might be better off sticking with the DJI app to fly.

Just another tool in the box, to be used when/where appropriate. Noise is a concern, as is visibility or the possibility of following the drone back to its control point. The new Mavic Mini 3 Pro is supposed to be much quieter than the others, although once the drone is above 200' AGL, you really don't hear it, and it's a hard sound to localize. With the gray color of the DJI drones, they're pretty darn hard to spot above 100', and almost impossible at 400'.

And for everyone (joking or not) talking about shooting drones down, it'd be a lot harder than you think. And if it's not a WROL situation, shooting a drone will get you in significant hot water, as it would fall under 18 USC 32, the Aircraft Sabotage Act. Shooting a drone is, in the eyes of the law, very much the same as shooting at an airliner. And while we're talking about laws, you do not control the airspace above your property. The FAA does. If someone is using a drone to actually harass or spy, that would be a crime, but just flying over someone's land is not. Just trying to be realistic instead of being a keyboard commando.

As far as RF security, unless everything is shut down, your signals will disappear in the RF soup that currently exists. And the only people with the ability to exploit that are going to be national-level agencies. DJI does have a few controllers with a built-in display, and I've heard that they're really good. But my old eyes prefer the biggest screen I can get, so I fly with an iPad now. Had to get a bracket to mount it on the controller, and a longer USB cable, but it's surprisingly well-balanced and not tiring to fly with. And I can actually see things on the ground when I'm flying.

I just have them for photography and mapping, might take the mini with me on a patrol, but the infrastructure required for sustained flight operations isn't going to help your pack weight.

My vote for "Best Post"

[pkveazey]

Years ago, I was in the CAP and really got interested in flying. Now, many, many, many years later, when Drones became a hobby, I decided to plunk down a few hundred dollars and get a nice one. Wham! Before I could get my money out of my pocket, along comes the Government and regulates the crap out it. Well, screw that. So, I pushed my money back down in my pocket and decided to just buy more ammo. I know that I could get one of those little dinky no license drones, but I can't make good use of that, so I just let the desire fade away.

[JohnyMac]

I do not know if I posted this, however I purchased a DJI Mini Pro back in March of this year. I have been very happy with DJI's product and customer service.

I use my drone for two reasons,

1) Security and,
2) Launching antennas in trees.

Looking at security, I can go out about 3-miles from take off and then I start to loose the frequency. Several times I have heard machinery on a state road and have launched the drone to see what the noise was. My gripe is battery capacity. I get 30-45 minutes of flight time IF the wind aloft is low. Like NOD's it is a force multiplier for sure.

I use to use a potato type gun using gas pressure to launch a small mortar type shell over a tree for messenger lines to hoist antennas. I now use my drone with a special release gizmo to release the message line. Then hoist the line for the antenna. I have used my drone a lot for this until I had a crash one day.

I was flying a messenger line over a tree she wanted one end of a dipole antenna to be anchored too. At the same time I released the payload a gust of wind came out of nowhere and I lost control of the drone just long enough for it to crash into a nearby tree. One of the propeller arms was damaged and I sent the drone back to DJI who sent me a brand new one just charging me for shipping. Yes...I had drone insurance. 

Can drones be expensive? Yes, so are NOD's BUT they can make all the difference.