Author Topic: TREADED! this is for you. please read!  (Read 2120 times)

Offline NOLA556

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TREADED! this is for you. please read!
« on: May 29, 2012, 06:47:31 PM »
http://thelizardfarmer.wordpress.com/2012/05/29/defense-homestead-case-study-back-to-terrain-pt-2/

this is obviously a link to your most recent blog entry. I was going to post this as a comment on the blog, but I figured this conversation/debate could benefit us here at SP as well.

DISCLAIMER: In no way am I tearing down this blog entry. As always, you bring arguably the most useful source of info that we have. I just needed to state that openly so no one took this the wrong way.

ok, that being said, I do have a slight problem with this particular entry. I'd say about 95% of it is golden (as usual) but I take issue with the fact that you focus your effective range on your homestead itself, rather than the idea of taking up strategic defensive positions spread out across the property at various distances.

In other words, you draw the "bullseye" so-to-speak around your actual dwelling/house/structure and assume that THAT is the only place you'll be firing from.

Now, I fully understand that your scenario is a VERY likely one because it will probably be very easy to be caught off guard and you may end up defending the homestead from right there, but there's also the possibility that you'll have some kind of advanced notice and have at least a minute or so do deploy your forces to more suitable fighting positions around the AO, thus expanding your effective "carbine country".

anyway, it's just something that popped into my head while reading your latest blog entry. again, I'm not tearing your blog down. not at all, I LOVE that sumbitch. just figured it would be a good conversation to have here on the forum.
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Offline Treaded

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Re: TREADED! this is for you. please read!
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2012, 08:29:30 PM »
http://thelizardfarmer.wordpress.com/2012/05/29/defense-homestead-case-study-back-to-terrain-pt-2/

this is obviously a link to your most recent blog entry. I was going to post this as a comment on the blog, but I figured this conversation/debate could benefit us here at SP as well.

DISCLAIMER: In no way am I tearing down this blog entry. As always, you bring arguably the most useful source of info that we have. I just needed to state that openly so no one took this the wrong way.

ok, that being said, I do have a slight problem with this particular entry. I'd say about 95% of it is golden (as usual) but I take issue with the fact that you focus your effective range on your homestead itself, rather than the idea of taking up strategic defensive positions spread out across the property at various distances.

In other words, you draw the "bullseye" so-to-speak around your actual dwelling/house/structure and assume that THAT is the only place you'll be firing from.

Now, I fully understand that your scenario is a VERY likely one because it will probably be very easy to be caught off guard and you may end up defending the homestead from right there, but there's also the possibility that you'll have some kind of advanced notice and have at least a minute or so do deploy your forces to more suitable fighting positions around the AO, thus expanding your effective "carbine country".

anyway, it's just something that popped into my head while reading your latest blog entry. again, I'm not tearing your blog down. not at all, I LOVE that sumbitch. just figured it would be a good conversation to have here on the forum.


First paragraph: "Still no countermeasures yet but it?s coming soon, trust me.   For right now we have to get a seriously in depth grasp on the makeup of our terrain."

I haven't begin to lay out any defensive measures yet.  No wire, no prepared positions, not a lick of that yet.  Relax, it's coming.  The assumed center of the defense is the house proper due to the reason of most of our activity being conducted relatively close to it.  Prepared alternative positions will be covered once I start going into measures you can take in those specific bands.  Using my planning (with this notional homestead) four out of the six planned residents at any time will be relatively close to the house proper. 

We're getting into OCOKA next and after that then we're going to start working on the land.

Offline EJR914

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Re: TREADED! this is for you. please read!
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2012, 08:46:14 PM »
 [img]http://www.arrse.co.uk/at

Offline NOLA556

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Re: TREADED! this is for you. please read!
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2012, 08:53:25 PM »
DAMMIT TREADED! can't you let me feel like my brain is working for a minute!!! LOL.... thanks for the clarification bro. maybe a silly thread due in large part to my own failure to pick up on certain things. I look forward to the next entry. (hopefully all won't be lost and we can still have a productive conversation on the topic?)

and EJR, thanks a bunch for the useful input, bro. way to contribute to the conversation. hat's off.
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Offline Treaded

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Re: TREADED! this is for you. please read!
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2012, 09:11:15 PM »
No problem ;)  Just a quick azimuth check for ya. Remember my intended audience:  Rural folks that have little to no military experience to fall back on for planning and executing their defense.  What I'm doing is laying this stuff out in a step by step process that will not only give them some info to work with but help them develop a tactical thinking ability.

A lot of what I write is "way too  basic" for folks that have been wearing uniforms all of their lives.  And that crowd wants to hurry up and get to the "place a soapdish claymore at the forked tree near the creek facing down 45 degrees from 15 feet in the air" stuff.  I've got to bring the intended audience up to that level otherwise when I cover it its going to be lost on them.  Basically what I'm trying to do is give an education in defensive planning and execution to non-mil types - my intended audience.  If you start at the beginning of my blog and read through you'll notice things work along themes and become more intricate as I progress.  Walk - crawl-run method of instruction ;)

Planning effective and efficient defenses isn't an easy process.  There is a bit of science to it and if you haven't been "greened" by being in a tactical environment it's easy to start stringing wire up everywhere and digging foxholes in convenient places - both of which may not be effective.  Do me a favor and read "The defense of Duffers Drift".  It's a fairly short read and has some EXTREMELY valuable lessons in it which were learned the hard way by an "Educated Officer" in Her Majesties Army. 

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/24842

Offline NOLA556

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Re: TREADED! this is for you. please read!
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2012, 09:19:47 PM »
No problem ;)  Just a quick azimuth check for ya. Remember my intended audience:  Rural folks that have little to no military experience to fall back on for planning and executing their defense.  What I'm doing is laying this stuff out in a step by step process that will not only give them some info to work with but help them develop a tactical thinking ability.

A lot of what I write is "way too  basic" for folks that have been wearing uniforms all of their lives.  And that crowd wants to hurry up and get to the "place a soapdish claymore at the forked tree near the creek facing down 45 degrees from 15 feet in the air" stuff.  I've got to bring the intended audience up to that level otherwise when I cover it its going to be lost on them.  Basically what I'm trying to do is give an education in defensive planning and execution to non-mil types - my intended audience.  If you start at the beginning of my blog and read through you'll notice things work along themes and become more intricate as I progress.  Walk - crawl-run method of instruction ;)

Planning effective and efficient defenses isn't an easy process.  There is a bit of science to it and if you haven't been "greened" by being in a tactical environment it's easy to start stringing wire up everywhere and digging foxholes in convenient places - both of which may not be effective.  Do me a favor and read "The defense of Duffers Drift".  It's a fairly short read and has some EXTREMELY valuable lessons in it which were learned the hard way by an "Educated Officer" in Her Majesties Army. 

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/24842


thanks for the link. will check it out in the next few hours.. (soon as I get the little one to sleep)

and as for the structure of the blog.. I've noticed how you have it set up. it's so difficult to comment on it because you always have the answers coming up next! lol

anyway, rock on bro. great stuff either way. I just thought the topic would be a good discussion for the SP community. (plus another free bump for the blog)
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Offline Treaded

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Re: TREADED! this is for you. please read!
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2012, 09:31:27 PM »
No problem ;)  Just a quick azimuth check for ya. Remember my intended audience:  Rural folks that have little to no military experience to fall back on for planning and executing their defense.  What I'm doing is laying this stuff out in a step by step process that will not only give them some info to work with but help them develop a tactical thinking ability.

A lot of what I write is "way too  basic" for folks that have been wearing uniforms all of their lives.  And that crowd wants to hurry up and get to the "place a soapdish claymore at the forked tree near the creek facing down 45 degrees from 15 feet in the air" stuff.  I've got to bring the intended audience up to that level otherwise when I cover it its going to be lost on them.  Basically what I'm trying to do is give an education in defensive planning and execution to non-mil types - my intended audience.  If you start at the beginning of my blog and read through you'll notice things work along themes and become more intricate as I progress.  Walk - crawl-run method of instruction ;)

Planning effective and efficient defenses isn't an easy process.  There is a bit of science to it and if you haven't been "greened" by being in a tactical environment it's easy to start stringing wire up everywhere and digging foxholes in convenient places - both of which may not be effective.  Do me a favor and read "The defense of Duffers Drift".  It's a fairly short read and has some EXTREMELY valuable lessons in it which were learned the hard way by an "Educated Officer" in Her Majesties Army. 

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/24842


thanks for the link. will check it out in the next few hours.. (soon as I get the little one to sleep)

and as for the structure of the blog.. I've noticed how you have it set up. it's so difficult to comment on it because you always have the answers coming up next! lol

anyway, rock on bro. great stuff either way. I just thought the topic would be a good discussion for the SP community. (plus another free bump for the blog)


If there's anything you don't understand or think could be included then by all means feel free to let me know.  I'm not infallible and I've always been a firm believer in the idea that "another perspective doesn't hurt anything but rather develops the concept".  My flowchart for the blog has become a bit convoluted as well due to answering some topics from emails so if I miss addressing something I said I was going to cover let me know ASAP.  I honestly didn't anticipate the popularity of it and quite frankly am a little bit taken aback by it.  I'm not one to want for notoriety but rather want to "teach a man to fish". 

I've had some suggestions about publishing the contents of the blog in a book down the road.  If I can do it in an ebook format for free then I will at a point where I feel we're down in the weeds enough and starting to cover nit-noids.  Personally I'm not fond of the idea of profiting off of others education.

Offline NOLA556

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Re: TREADED! this is for you. please read!
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2012, 09:55:38 PM »



If there's anything you don't understand or think could be included then by all means feel free to let me know.  I'm not infallible and I've always been a firm believer in the idea that "another perspective doesn't hurt anything but rather develops the concept".  My flowchart for the blog has become a bit convoluted as well due to answering some topics from emails so if I miss addressing something I said I was going to cover let me know ASAP.  I honestly didn't anticipate the popularity of it and quite frankly am a little bit taken aback by it.  I'm not one to want for notoriety but rather want to "teach a man to fish". 

I've had some suggestions about publishing the contents of the blog in a book down the road.  If I can do it in an ebook format for free then I will at a point where I feel we're down in the weeds enough and starting to cover nit-noids.  Personally I'm not fond of the idea of profiting off of others education.

well I thought I had you on this one, hence the comment/criticism but yet again (seems to be the case more often than not, lol) it's another case of me not paying close enough attention to detail. (that will probably prove to be a fatal flaw of mine post-SHTF, btw)

and as for the popularity of the blog. seriously bro, hat's off. whether or not you foresaw this, it's here, and you GOTTA roll with it. you have a fan-base that looks up to you now. hopefully I don't sound like I'm kissing your ass or anything, but one thing I really gotta give you over all the other patriot/SHTF style blogs out there is that you BRING THE CONTENT on a very consistent basis. even some of my all-time favorite bloggers tend to just link back and forth to each others' blogs and only bring original content once in a while. your page always brings fresh original material.

anyway, enough brown-nosing, lol. I suppose this is kind of a meaningless thread. I'll delete it after a day or so if no one else kicks-off a convo on the topic.

ok so, flawed as the thread may be, DEFENDING THE HOUSE ITSELF VS. TAKING UP STRATEGIC POSITIONS AROUND THE HOUSE. HOW DO YOU PLAN ON DOING IT??? GO!  :))

I'll start.

For me, it all depends on which homestead I'm defending. Honestly, neither one will serve me very well. The BOL will offer me alot more in terms of location and natural defenses, but since I don't technically own it, I can't prepare any strategic positions. With any luck I'll have enough time post-SHTF to establish some defensive positions before anything serious happens.

As for the current residence... pretty much the same situation except it's the burbs, so it's far worse off in terms of location. I've scoped out a handful of strategic positions that I could potentially take up in a pinch, but there's only so much you can do in a densely populated suburb. It's really a pretty unpredictable situation because I have no way of knowing which neighbors will be down to play ball, and which ones will be sheep, and which ones will just shut themselves out all together. I'm only dealing with maybe 1/8 acre of yard when you exclude the rest of the neighborhood, so if I get stuck here, strategic positions kind of go right own the window with everything else, lol.

EDIT: just to throw this in there. my max shooting distance for the current residence is actually pretty damn far even though it's the burbs. it all depends on where I'm shooting from. if I'm actually in or near the house, it's maybe only 30-40 yds. max, but looking down the street, I've got about 1000 yds give or take in one direction, and shit... who knows how far in the other direction. probably somewhere around 2-3K yards. either way, far longer than my effective distance, even with my modest little DM gun.

at the BOL, (from the house itself) I've got about 150-200 yds in any direction, and the longest straight-line shot is probably somewhere around 500-600 yds. still within effective range but it's pushing it.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 10:15:34 PM by NOLA556 »
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Offline Treaded

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Re: TREADED! this is for you. please read!
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2012, 11:30:04 PM »
well I thought I had you on this one, hence the comment/criticism but yet again (seems to be the case more often than not, lol) it's another case of me not paying close enough attention to detail. (that will probably prove to be a fatal flaw of mine post-SHTF, btw)

and as for the popularity of the blog. seriously bro, hat's off. whether or not you foresaw this, it's here, and you GOTTA roll with it. you have a fan-base that looks up to you now. hopefully I don't sound like I'm kissing your ass or anything, but one thing I really gotta give you over all the other patriot/SHTF style blogs out there is that you BRING THE CONTENT on a very consistent basis. even some of my all-time favorite bloggers tend to just link back and forth to each others' blogs and only bring original content once in a while. your page always brings fresh original material.

anyway, enough brown-nosing, lol. I suppose this is kind of a meaningless thread. I'll delete it after a day or so if no one else kicks-off a convo on the topic.

ok so, flawed as the thread may be, DEFENDING THE HOUSE ITSELF VS. TAKING UP STRATEGIC POSITIONS AROUND THE HOUSE. HOW DO YOU PLAN ON DOING IT??? GO! :))

I'll start.

For me, it all depends on which homestead I'm defending. Honestly, neither one will serve me very well. The BOL will offer me alot more in terms of location and natural defenses, but since I don't technically own it, I can't prepare any strategic positions. With any luck I'll have enough time post-SHTF to establish some defensive positions before anything serious happens.

As for the current residence... pretty much the same situation except it's the burbs, so it's far worse off in terms of location. I've scoped out a handful of strategic positions that I could potentially take up in a pinch, but there's only so much you can do in a densely populated suburb. It's really a pretty unpredictable situation because I have no way of knowing which neighbors will be down to play ball, and which ones will be sheep, and which ones will just shut themselves out all together. I'm only dealing with maybe 1/8 acre of yard when you exclude the rest of the neighborhood, so if I get stuck here, strategic positions kind of go right own the window with everything else, lol.

EDIT: just to throw this in there. my max shooting distance for the current residence is actually pretty damn far even though it's the burbs. it all depends on where I'm shooting from. if I'm actually in or near the house, it's maybe only 30-40 yds. max, but looking down the street, I've got about 1000 yds give or take in one direction, and shit... who knows how far in the other direction. probably somewhere around 2-3K yards. either way, far longer than my effective distance, even with my modest little DM gun.

at the BOL, (from the house itself) I've got about 150-200 yds in any direction, and the longest straight-line shot is probably somewhere around 500-600 yds. still within effective range but it's pushing it.

You answered the question right there.  I built my current house with TSHTF in mind.  My fields of fire are cleared out to 400 yards with no real cover and little concealment that can't be fire upon from inside the house.  Flavor of caliber that dominates here is .308  and .338.  But I do have a few bigger things for the odd instance a charging Rhino comes across that pasture.  I know from design and construction specs my exterior walls will withstand repeated hits from anything .308 and down.  My plan is to defend in place but if it comes to it I have more than one way out that isn't obvious.  Gotta love a wife that's been in a real SHTF situation. 

The first house I bought was in the burbs.  I would not have even tried to stay and defend that place.  My box trailer stayed loaded in the garage and my plan was to throw a match to the place on my way out.   

There are a few houses in my tribal AO that are trailers and such.  Realistically it would be suicide to try and defend from those.  A covered egress is probably a better idea.  MOF one of my neighbors down the road already has his egress plan in place and practices it getting here when tornado alerts go out.  If some of my good AO mates places are lost (i.e. burned to the ground) then the loft above my shop will be open for their family until we can rebuild him.  Tribe uber alles. 

One thing you need to ask yourself - what would happen is someone got to my BOL before me and was armed out the wazzo?  What do you do then?  That is the same thing I asked myself in those burb days and honestly I never came up with a good answer other than "going to some relatives place out in the country" if I couldn't take my BOL back.   

I'm not going to tip my hat you guys will just have to read the blog - some of the stuff I'm going to put out will make you laugh it's so damn simple ;D

Offline NOLA556

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Re: TREADED! this is for you. please read!
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2012, 11:53:22 PM »


You answered the question right there.  I built my current house with TSHTF in mind.  My fields of fire are cleared out to 400 yards with no real cover and little concealment that can't be fire upon from inside the house.  Flavor of caliber that dominates here is .308  and .338.  But I do have a few bigger things for the odd instance a charging Rhino comes across that pasture.  I know from design and construction specs my exterior walls will withstand repeated hits from anything .308 and down.  My plan is to defend in place but if it comes to it I have more than one way out that isn't obvious.  Gotta love a wife that's been in a real SHTF situation. 

The first house I bought was in the burbs.  I would not have even tried to stay and defend that place.  My box trailer stayed loaded in the garage and my plan was to throw a match to the place on my way out.   

There are a few houses in my tribal AO that are trailers and such.  Realistically it would be suicide to try and defend from those.  A covered egress is probably a better idea.  MOF one of my neighbors down the road already has his egress plan in place and practices it getting here when tornado alerts go out.  If some of my good AO mates places are lost (i.e. burned to the ground) then the loft above my shop will be open for their family until we can rebuild him.  Tribe uber alles. 

One thing you need to ask yourself - what would happen is someone got to my BOL before me and was armed out the wazzo?  What do you do then?  That is the same thing I asked myself in those burb days and honestly I never came up with a good answer other than "going to some relatives place out in the country" if I couldn't take my BOL back.   

I'm not going to tip my hat you guys will just have to read the blog - some of the stuff I'm going to put out will make you laugh it's so damn simple ;D

wow. lots of stuff to respond to!

first off, your exterior walls can withstand repeated hits from .308 on down. well dammit, that's not something I even imagined. right there you're far better off than I'd ever even bother to envision for myself. that's some pretty serious armor if you ask me. I suppose I'd put a little more stock in defending my house itself if it were as bulletproof as that. Mine's not though (the one at the BOL), so my best chance is to take up alternate positions to stop the threat from even getting within range of the house.

second thing: if someone got to my BOL before me and was armed out the wazzoo... well FINALLY something that I've thought through!

ok so maybe I haven't thought it ALL the way through, but here are my thoughts. If my BOL was overrun before I could get there, (wouldn't be too difficult to overrun a couple senior citizens armed only with shotguns and birdshot), I would actually feel pretty confident that I'd prevail.

A: I know the terrain intimately. If I show up and there's evidence that something's happened, it's fucking on, and whoever is inside is going to fucking pay in a major way.

B: have you ever seen a man high on the kind of rage that comes only from seeing his loved ones in danger? I haven't personally, but I can only imagine how terrible a wrath it must be. if there is a God, may He pity those who hurt my family, because I won't.

C: I guess I'm just returning to point A here, but like I said, I know the terrain. so long as cooler heads prevail (which I doubt they will), I'll easily be able to wait them out and hit them in their softest spot when they least expect it. after all, it's my land, I know it, they are intruders, they've only seen a fraction of the land. I guess it all depends on who thinks things through and who doesn't.

honestly treaded, this topic has gotten the gears in my head churning more than usual. thanks for that.
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Offline Treaded

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Re: TREADED! this is for you. please read!
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2012, 12:21:31 AM »
Rage is dangerous - it's not an emotion that lends itself to critical thinking and can get you killed way to easily.  Revenge is a dish better served with a cool head and well thought out and rehearsed plan.

Given your situation I think there's a few clever alternatives.  Here's some thinking outside the box: Even pulling an RV into a revetment will give you some protection. Think about this - you get 8 40' cargo containers.  Stack them 2 end to end each wall so you have a box with an opening in one end.  Cut openings in the tops and fill with sand them snatch you some of that kudzu and plant it at the base on the exterior.  Setup a simple septic system, a ladder with some bagged in positions on the tops and wala -  You now have a revetment capable of easily withstanding multiple .50 hits.    Be creative - an additional 20' cargo container placed a bit further out (at least far enough to get an RV into the interior) in line with the entry and you now have pretty much 360 direct fire protection.  Total cost?  A creative shopper could probably do it for 10-15k.   


Offline EJR914

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Re: TREADED! this is for you. please read!
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2012, 12:38:11 PM »
and EJR, thanks a bunch for the useful input, bro. way to contribute to the conversation. hat's off.

I think you deserved it, no need to get butt hurt bro.  Just a playful jest.  I'm glad that you now see that anything that Treaded failed to mention, or failed to explain in his blog, will be explained in later blog posts.  If there is anything I've learned from reading his blog, its that he's very organized, and his blog reads almost like a How-To book, yet instead of coming out with it all at one time, he's posting and publishing it as he gets finished writing it and the next blog post will either finish up a previous post, or start a new topic, and sometimes they are not chronological.  The amount of good information that he is putting out on his blog is astonishing at best, and I'm amazed that one man has all this knowledge and expertise in his brain. 

I think its amazing that he is doing what he is doing, and I don't know about you, but its hard for me just to sit back and absorb all the good information he is supplying.  I think its good to ask questions and clarify.  I would suggest however, that you read, sit back and try to absorb the information presented, and maybe be a little patient with him, before offering constructive criticism to his posts.  I'm very glad that Treaded seems to have a cool head, and seem very intelligent with his replies. 

With treaded, I just sit back and wait for the next bite of juicy information.  I try to absorb it first, before I criticize.  Also, he'll often leave notes about what he is going into next, but I don't think he should have to get in the habit of covering all the bases in one post, to try to avoid some constructive criticism.  That's probably destructive to his time, thinking of sentences or disclaimers that people might miss anyway in his writing, when he could be just giving us more good information and knowledge in the next blog post.

All I'm saying is make sure that you read it all and try to absorb the information first, before offering any critiques or constructive criticism.  Read it three times, sit and think about it first.  Take notes in a survival journal.  Print out the blog posts in a three hole punch journal, print it double space so you can make your own notes, and leave blank pieces of paper between to make more notes.  See if he alluded to what will be in his next blog entry.  Do I think that everything that Treaded writes is gospel and it cannot be challenged?  Hell no, but I do take it as another arrow in my quill, and I do a lot of self-challenging to his work, that I think is wrong for my AO, or things that I would need to change and tweak.  Most of what he says is right on, though.  I just take the good, and leave the bad, the same thing I do with everything else that I read or research. 

Also, everyone is in a different place, in a different situation, with different a different AO and different capabilities.  There is no way Treaded can hit them all, because each one is unique and different, and takes its own individual plan.  I give a hats off to Treaded for even trying to attempt to give good information that can be used by everyone no matter the specialized situation, because its very hard to do, to just stay general and not make the mistake of leaning on his own AO and his own situation in each of his posts.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 12:42:14 PM by EJR914 »

Offline thatGuy

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Re: TREADED! this is for you. please read!
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2012, 01:52:00 PM »
Damn EJR, get a room.

Treaded, I love that you built your house with defence in mind. I am making adobe bricks right now with the intent of building my own home and torching my mobile but it I can't shake the feeling that the historic model that has been used in New Mexico is somehow flawed.

I am improving on the design were I can see that it needs it, as example I will be building with steel trusses/steel roofing instead of wood and asphalt shingles.

So here is my quesion to you, what are some of the key design features that you would build into a house that you intended to be a fortified position?

Thanks
thatGuy

Offline EJR914

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Re: TREADED! this is for you. please read!
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2012, 04:19:46 PM »
Get a room?  Nah, I'm a home owner. 

Offline Treaded

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Re: TREADED! this is for you. please read!
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2012, 04:34:27 PM »
Damn EJR, get a room.

Treaded, I love that you built your house with defence in mind. I am making adobe bricks right now with the intent of building my own home and torching my mobile but it I can't shake the feeling that the historic model that has been used in New Mexico is somehow flawed.

I am improving on the design were I can see that it needs it, as example I will be building with steel trusses/steel roofing instead of wood and asphalt shingles.

So here is my quesion to you, what are some of the key design features that you would build into a house that you intended to be a fortified position?

Thanks
thatGuy


TG, in your instance this is what I would do.  If you absolutely have to use adobe then go with a double wall.  That is stack two walls with a six inch gap between them and tie them together at least every six square inches.  Fill that 6" with sand.  That's going to give you more mass and make it energy efficient but it accomplishes another thing.  Six inches of packed sand will stop a .308 round.   I won't guarantee you'll be .50 proof (especially with adobe) but for the most part ARs and AKs are going to have some problems getting through.  Another method would be to use CMUs and fill the centers.  It'll still take multiple small arms hits to tear the wall up enough to get through.

Design wise we went with a central courtyard.  That is our house is shaped like a U with a tall wall on the open side and an iron/steel locking ornamental gate (that freaking gate took a crane to get into position - our forklift couldn't handle it).  I looked at a few different methods of construction but ultimately went with reinforced poured and tilt up walls with a concrete cap for the roof similar to the method the Air Force used for family housing in the 50s.  That was covered with a layer of shotcrete with fiberstranding mixed in.  Basically I took the Air Forces construction techniques for houses from the Florida bases (which had to be hurricane rated) and used it here.  It's probably overkill but this house will still be standing a couple of hundred years from now.   

My wife and I played with designs for years.  What we ended up going with was kind of a mixture of Mexican and Korean courtyard type architecture.  It drove us nuts (and cost an arm and a leg) finding a draftsman that understood the construction technology we wanted to turn our drawings into blueprints.

I have an acquaintance down in central Texas that built something similar a few years back.  He used some kind of self stacking blocks with a concrete roof and it turned out pretty damn tough.  He actually documented the whole thing while he did it.  Here's a link to the first page: http://www.texasmusicforge.com/gimmeshelter.html  maybe that'll give you some ideas.
     

Offline Deathstyle

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Re: TREADED! this is for you. please read!
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2012, 10:18:13 PM »

Treaded, I love that you built your house with defence in mind. I am making adobe bricks right now with the intent of building my own home and torching my mobile but it I can't shake the feeling that the historic model that has been used in New Mexico is somehow flawed.



Hey ThatGuy have you looked into an Earthhouse like Stormcloudsgathering was building before he booked it to France?    ( [img]http://www.arrse.co.uk/at -thats for SCG)

He said the walls would provide very good protection against small arms fire.
"Blackouts are God's way of saying, 'Don't worry 'bout it".

Offline Treaded

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Re: TREADED! this is for you. please read!
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2012, 10:32:52 PM »
Hey ThatGuy have you looked into an Earthhouse like Stormcloudsgathering was building before he booked it to France?    He said the walls would provide very good protection against small arms fire.


Ya know before we settled on what we have now my initial idea was to build one of Wells tiny underground homes as a BOL on a few acres of land.   The plans are still available from the website: http://www.malcolmwells.com/books.html




Offline thatGuy

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Re: TREADED! this is for you. please read!
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2012, 06:22:59 PM »
Treaded, it's funny that what you described is the New Mexico Model. Traditionally houses were build around a central courtyard that was enclosed on one side by a heavy gate. This allowed them to drive the flock or herd into the court yard overnight to prevent them from being stolen by Indians.

The lack of windows on the outside of the building and the high parapits allowed for a elevated fighting position for the defenders.

I've been searching for a study out of (if my memory hasn't failed me) Guatemala where they tested the bullet resistance of several building materials and found that a single 8" course of adobe will stop 308 all day long. The study was published in the Mother Earth News of all places.

If my google-fu wasn't failing me I would have made an attempt to vet the local legend that a double thickness adobe laid up with the bricks at their thickest would stop a cannon ball.


Offline Treaded

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Re: TREADED! this is for you. please read!
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2012, 10:39:52 PM »
Don't count on adobe stopping .308 all day long.  Part of the problem with it (along with concrete, rock, and timber) is that they are degradable and structurally fracture prone by high velocity impacts.  Even the walls on my house would be compromised by someone hammering the same area over and over.  The army has done tons of testing over the last century + on projectile resistance and the best result has always been a minimum of 6" of dry unpacked sand.  IIRC the Field Engineering manual has the specs of how many inches of what it takes to stop a .30 cal projo.  Personally I've seen a 240 tear the hell out of a 6" reinforced concrete wall and actually start to penetrate completely at one point on a single belt.  That is exactly why I had the outer walls shotcreted with the mix that has reinforcing fibers.  Those fibers are more likely to continue to retain the mass rather than just let it shatter and shed.  I imagine that adobe would benefit from the same process as well.  Not foolproof but better than nothing.

I have heard the piece about the cannon balls.  I believe it's origin was European (Napoleonic era field works required at least 6 feet of wall to stop field fire) and that came to America with the construction of the missions in the southwest and Mexico. 

Offline thatGuy

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Re: TREADED! this is for you. please read!
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2012, 11:00:39 PM »
I'm looking at fiberglass mesh and fiberglass in the cement that will go in place of stucco.. not because of the bullet resistant issue but because block walls have lousy shear strength. It's good to know that it will do double duty. Although I hope like hell I don't ever need it for either purpose.  [url=http://www.freesmileys.or

You can eat a whole elephant a bite at a time for sure but if I got folks with enough ammo and the hardware to "wear out" my walls then I should be thinking about making an exit at that point.