Author Topic: Tactical response  (Read 4574 times)

Offline Kentactic

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Re: Tactical response
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2016, 07:12:16 PM »
anyone can take a tactical response class for free.

Just have someone shoot your friend in the artery, leave your parking brake on in your car before hiding in a ditch. Easy peasy and free.  :coffeeNews:
The ole "attack his character rather than his argument" routine? I'll bite.

Let's say he's a total coward that panics in a gunfight. Does that prove that he's teaching bad tactics or is it totally besides the point? What if we factor in the fact that Yeager is one of like 6 instructors that teach the material? Is anyone who has learned the material a coward by default? Do you know any of his material? If so, are you now too a coward? Does being a coward imply that you are incapable of learning certain things and then teaching them to others? Is a school teacher wrong if he's a coward and teaches kids stuff? What specific mental disciplines are effected by the coward complex? Can we move past this tired unfounded argument now?

Any opinions about TR training need to be based off of the training curriculum and instructor implementation of it. All of the other nonsense about the internet blather should not come into it.  If you dont like him for something that you read on the internet then dont take a class with them.  I  personally was not a fan of TR classes because I did not like the presentation style and overall message...too much bluster and "do it this way.....because we say"and "everybody else doesnt know what they are doing".  That may have changed over time as the curriculum has developed but I'm all set with TR.  Some people I know liked them so more power to them. I would rather see someone get training than not because of the garbage out on the internet.
Sounds about right. I'll see for myself how it is. Even if it's terrible it's going to top the list for CA training. 
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Offline Kentactic

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Re: Tactical response
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2016, 10:37:56 PM »
So I did take "fighting Pistol" with Tactical response on April 19-20. I give the class a 7 out of 10. They didn't blow my mind on too many things in their class. I was pretty up to date with what they teach through much of Yeager's videos. That being said, the class took what I understood and added more confidence and clarity to it. There were a handful of things I had zero knowledge of prior to the class though. Taking the class in California left nothing out from what I gathered. One of the first things we did on the first morning was put our hand up and promise to never utter the words "Is that legal?". At that range was the first time in CA where I knew I was around nothing but understanding people in terms of the necessity to carry and I had no concern for judging eyes in any regard. The first day I ran an OWB holster with flashlight. On the second day I ran IWB without a flashlight. I pulled all spare mags from my jean pocket for maximum realism.

They can be a little abrasive IF you show up with an ego. For example, I kept catching hot brass on day one. One time hot brass from my neighbor landed INSIDE my eyewear right under my eye. Naturally I did an epileptic shaking of my eyewear to get it out. After that round one of the instructors announced(not singling me out) that we need to buck up and deal with the short term pain if brass lands in unfortunate places for realism purposes. If we get shot we aren't going to stop fighting so hot brass shouldn't be a problem. My ego was a little bruised so it was a great reminder to not have an ego and to take as much impartial knowledge as possible from the class. I was actually looking forward to more hot brass after that but it never came to test me again.

The instructors were not safety whores unless you ignored their commands, which is obviously understandable. They felt perfectly comfortable with everyone standing next to their targets as they demo'd the next drill. The students were also setup only a couple feet apart and in some case would be shooting beyond one another if they got behind in a moving drill when regressing from or progressing toward a target. Key here is to fix malfunctions on the move so you don't end up with a guy 20 feet behind you, shooting at the target 2 feet to your left. It avoids the "Fucking move" command from the instructors also.

Another thing I liked about the class was the emphasis on keeping your pistol loaded. They didn't like to see guys with empty guns after a drill so it was first priority to load the weapon back up. This meant going through a full repetition of the correct draw stroke(yell "stop", move, draw pistol, reload gun, reluctantly reholster).

There was more I liked about the class, one of which being the homework after day one and a few other things I shall not mention. I'd recommend the class to anyone interested in improving their ability to fight with a pistol. One thing I should mention is, at least in my class, there weren't any really bad shooters. I feel like I'm an average shooter but in reality compared to the average shooter I'm much better, but here I was just one of the guys. I was among all the other guys like myself that have trained hard on their own for a few years or more and came here to sharpen their skills. We were all that "go-to" guy among their friends that everyone comes to for gun related questions.

The instructors kept it humorous when they could. They constantly took shots at one another over age, height, ethnicity etc.

Anyways, sorry it probably reads like rambling, because I am.
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Offline special-k

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Re: Tactical response
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2016, 11:57:28 PM »
Swell report there Ken.   :word:
"It wouldn't do any good.  I've had the shit beat out of me a lot of times.  I just replenish with more shit."  - Billy McBride

Offline JohnyMac

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Re: Tactical response
« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2016, 08:30:24 AM »
Thx for the report Ken  :thumbsUp:

Did folks hang together after the first day of shooting? Or did everyone just go off on their own? The reason I ask was I am interested in the folks who took the class like:

Why did they take the class
Who (make-up) are the folks who took the class
etc.
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Offline Kentactic

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Re: Tactical response
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2016, 09:07:57 AM »
Thx for the report Ken  :thumbsUp:

Did folks hang together after the first day of shooting? Or did everyone just go off on their own? The reason I ask was I am interested in the folks who took the class like:

Why did they take the class
Who (make-up) are the folks who took the class
etc.


The class was made up of 2 doctors, 1 paramedic, 1 lifeguard, The host was a Cop in the area, 1 Iraq vet from Arizona and various other professions. I believe there were 22 students in total. After day one the instructors asked if anyone was interested in having dinner and I think 3 guys were. Personally I had a 3 hour drive through traffic from hell and needed to get home to sleep just to wake up and come right back in the morning, so I wasn't interested in dinner. The average age of the students was probably around 30. A couple guys were in their 50's, a couple in their 40's and the rest were all 30's and younger. Everyone was nice and there wasn't any division of social groups or anything. Everyone would talk to everyone.
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Offline JohnyMac

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Re: Tactical response
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2016, 09:53:08 AM »
Thx Ken.

Just talking about myself mind you...I learn almost as much from the dinners then from the actual training. I also like adding new friends to my contact list.  ;)

All good stuff.
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Offline rah45

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Re: Tactical response
« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2016, 10:54:29 AM »
Well Ken, you've just countered a lot of the negative stuff I've read about TR. Maybe I won't automatically write them off after all.

Offline CJS06

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Re: Tactical response
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2016, 02:11:15 PM »
Ken

Thanks for the follow up report.  Sounds like a great experience for you. It is good to hear that you had a positive experience with TR.  This is why it is important to make our own judgements, not just base everything off of talk from the interweb.  I may not take another TR class but that doesnt mean you or anyone else should not.

I am taking a VCQB class with Will Petty of 88 Tactical at the end of June in SLC.  I will try to post a review following the class. It is my first class with Will.

Chris

Offline Erick

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Re: Tactical response
« Reply #33 on: June 11, 2016, 10:56:53 PM »
I also hear good things about Valour Ridge. It is run by Reid Hendrics who used to work for James Jaeger. Valour Ridge is above Knoxville near the Kentucky boarder.

http://www.valorridge.com/


Looked at their website due to your link.
Seems like a good school from what they have in their curriculum.

Definitely not on the inexpensive side though.

As for myself I am looking to train at more diverse schools but its tough.
The real basic classes I feel I will not get my money's worth out of at all since I run myself thru  basic combat rifle  curriculum just about every 2-3 months and as a result am not interested in taking..

the classes that are interesting (Rifleman 2) I am not allowed to attend due to not having the prerequisite.  :deadHorse:
Every day, men who will follow orders to kill you, exercise. Do you?

Offline Erick

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Re: Tactical response
« Reply #34 on: June 11, 2016, 10:59:55 PM »
Ken:
Thank you for the well written class review!  :dance:
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Offline CJS06

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Re: Tactical response
« Reply #35 on: June 12, 2016, 10:51:44 PM »
Check out 88 Tactical in Nebraska. They have built up and excellent facility.  They have a wide range of various classes that may be of interest. I am doing a VCQB class with Will Petty of 88 Tactical in a couple of weeks out in Utah.  Also take a look at Buck Doyle of Follow Through Consulting. His scoped carbine class is well beyond the typical Carbine 1 classes.

Edit/JMc: Here is a link to this training company.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2016, 07:53:46 AM by JohnyMac »

Hondokov

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Re: Tactical response
« Reply #36 on: June 19, 2016, 09:34:30 AM »
I also hear good things about Valour Ridge. It is run by Reid Hendrics who used to work for James Jaeger. Valour Ridge is above Knoxville near the Kentucky boarder.

http://www.valorridge.com/


Looked at their website due to your link.
Seems like a good school from what they have in their curriculum.

Definitely not on the inexpensive side though.

As for myself I am looking to train at more diverse schools but its tough.
The real basic classes I feel I will not get my money's worth out of at all since I run myself thru  basic combat rifle  curriculum just about every 2-3 months and as a result am not interested in taking..

the classes that are interesting (Rifleman 2) I am not allowed to attend due to not having the prerequisite.  :deadHorse:


Erick,
Due to your amount of training time I would think Valor Ridge would enroll you in Rifleman 2 if you call them....... ;)
Also check out Storm Mountain Training Center in WV.. An outstanding place to train, you will not be disappointed.
http://www.stormmountain.com/

Offline Erick

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Re: Tactical response
« Reply #37 on: July 13, 2016, 05:00:06 PM »
I also hear good things about Valour Ridge. It is run by Reid Hendrics who used to work for James Jaeger. Valour Ridge is above Knoxville near the Kentucky boarder.

http://www.valorridge.com/


Looked at their website due to your link.
Seems like a good school from what they have in their curriculum.

Definitely not on the inexpensive side though.

As for myself I am looking to train at more diverse schools but its tough.
The real basic classes I feel I will not get my money's worth out of at all since I run myself thru  basic combat rifle  curriculum just about every 2-3 months and as a result am not interested in taking..

the classes that are interesting (Rifleman 2) I am not allowed to attend due to not having the prerequisite.  :deadHorse:


Erick,
Due to your amount of training time I would think Valor Ridge would enroll you in Rifleman 2 if you call them....... ;)
Also check out Storm Mountain Training Center in WV.. An outstanding place to train, you will not be disappointed.
http://www.stormmountain.com/


I admit I have not called them yet but their website (actually all thier websites) are really adamant about taking Rifle 1 as a prereq "no exceptions".
Tactical Response was even more extreme on thier website .."Unless you been an active Tier 1 operator in the last year" is what it says there :facepalm:

The search continues
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Offline Nemo

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Re: Tactical response
« Reply #38 on: July 13, 2016, 05:19:01 PM »
Those courses all look excellent.  Problem is the rather large cost.

Appleseedinfo.org is a 2 day rifle course and generally costs less than $100 per person.  I can almost guarantee you if you go to the class you will shoot your rifle better (military snipers excepted) when you finish than when you started.

I can guarantee you that you will get tips, tricks and things that help that you never thought of or learned elsewhere.

You will also learn things about the American Revolution that you never knew and should have been taught but never were.

Nemo
« Last Edit: July 13, 2016, 05:20:54 PM by Nemo »
If you need a second magazine, its time to call in air support.

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gadget99

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Re: Tactical response
« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2016, 06:55:01 PM »
Thinking of offering an opinion here. Yet not wanting to get flamed

Offline Nemo

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Re: Tactical response
« Reply #40 on: July 18, 2016, 07:53:30 PM »
Come on, spit it out.  I may disagree with your statements but I will defend your rights to say it.

Nemo

If you need a second magazine, its time to call in air support.

God created Man, Col. Sam Colt made him equal, John Moses Browning turned equality to perfection, Gaston Glock turned perfection into plastic fantastic junk.

gadget99

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Re: Tactical response
« Reply #41 on: July 19, 2016, 07:15:08 AM »
Had to go look through the website first.

I am having a bit of trouble getting my head wrapped around people spending money on these types of courses.

Bear with me and I will come back to this subject at some point.

Need to think a bit on this more. With my past I have strong opinions on firearms training.

The basic fundamentals of pistol and rifle Marksmanship are paramount and much of the time not given the priority needed.

Like I said need to think a bit on it and the value of these courses as I see it.

Then again if people are happy with what they are buying, more power to them.

Offline Nemo

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Re: Tactical response
« Reply #42 on: July 19, 2016, 09:14:31 AM »
appleseedinfo.org

2 day rifleman course.

Nemo
If you need a second magazine, its time to call in air support.

God created Man, Col. Sam Colt made him equal, John Moses Browning turned equality to perfection, Gaston Glock turned perfection into plastic fantastic junk.

gadget99

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Re: Tactical response
« Reply #43 on: July 19, 2016, 11:06:21 AM »
appleseedinfo.org

2 day rifleman course.

Nemo

Ok I can see the value now.

Offline EJR914

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Re: Tactical response
« Reply #44 on: July 27, 2016, 02:46:41 AM »
I'm glad you got a lot out of it, Ken, but I've seen some shit from TR that was just straight up fucking retarded before, so yeah, good with the bad I guess, but sounds like the course you took was all good, though. 

Offline Kentactic

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Re: Tactical response
« Reply #45 on: August 05, 2016, 01:07:23 AM »
Just to address some comments... Personally I'm that guy who says "Bro I'm not paying $500 for your basic class because I already know all that shit"... And in a previous class, I was right and lost my money. On tactical response I took the gamble again. That gamble paid off. Did I already know most of the curriculum? Yes... but something about the experience reinforced my questionable knowledge. The most value I got was confidence in my knowledge. I stood before the guys that partly taught me over the internet, what I thought I knew and they put their hand on my shoulder after I performed a drill or stood still in a requested position and they said "looks good". That positive in person verification is not to be undervalued. You think in your head "man I bet if i was there they'd say I was already good to go" but until you get that in person proof positive, you don't attain the confidence associated with it. Now as stated, some things were new information as well. I went in knowing 90% of the curriculum and had 10% of the personal confidence in my abilities and knowledge of that curriculum. I came out with 100% in both categories.

I would like to believe that I'm a logical person that is capable of critical thought without any help. Only one single point from the entire class did not sit well with me. That point was, "Why can't I look at my holster when reholstering?". I asked this because, the theme of reholstering throughout the class was "RELUCTANTLY reholster". This means, when you know for a fucking fact that the gunfight is over, you can reholster. They cited the fact that it takes cops 10 minutes on a great day, to show up, so you have that long to safely reholster. However they told us to not look at the holster as we reholstered so we can keep our eyes out in the danger zone(my words). So if I am reluctantly reholstering, why the fuck can't I look and avoid the most common self induced injury of shooting yourself while reholstering? If I need my eyes out in the space, I can't yet reluctantly reholster. That is literally the only flaw I could find in the entire class curriculum.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 01:09:57 AM by Kentactic »
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Offline sledge

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Re: Tactical response
« Reply #46 on: August 05, 2016, 07:44:33 PM »
Ken, how do you know when the gunfight is over?  Or when the next one begins?

When all of the bad guys in front of you are dead?

Not trying to be a know it all, just throwing something out there to think about.

Diversions are a common tactic. 



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Offline Kentactic

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Re: Tactical response
« Reply #47 on: August 06, 2016, 08:31:54 PM »
Ken, how do you know when the gunfight is over?  Or when the next one begins?

When all of the bad guys in front of you are dead?

Not trying to be a know it all, just throwing something out there to think about.

Diversions are a common tactic.

I agree so we shouldn't be in any hurry to reholster. When we know all is clear, we can do so. If it's not safe to look at the holster in order to safely reinsert the gun, we shouldn't be attempting to do so at all. So in my worthless opinion, there's never a good reason to not look at the holster when reholstering your pistol.

I think you mean to say, you can never be sure when it's "Over". To that I would also agree but then ask you if you always walk around with your hand on your pistol in case a gunfight starts? Two gunfights a few minutes apart may as well be 10 days apart. At some point we must go back to living a normal life with a holstered gun. I think that time should come before the cops show up unless you still don't feel safe reholstering and looking at the holster because of a heightened potential for more gunfighting. To me it's simple, if you can't look at the holster, you shouldn't be reholstering. I bet you reholstered at your house and looked before. You were sure then that you were safe to do so without being shot. Whenever that level of safety returns to your conscience, you may reholster.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2016, 08:36:30 PM by Kentactic »
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Offline CJS06

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Re: Tactical response
« Reply #48 on: August 14, 2016, 07:50:38 PM »
If the situation is "safe" enough for you to reholster then it id safe enough to take the time to look......damn it is just a glance were talking about not a longing stare.  Be safe and do it right.  Why fiddle f#$% around with the holster....sounds like someone trying to bee a little too cool and high speed.   "Reluctantly" holster...WTF.  It either needs to be out or not. I cant agree with Ken's assessment more.

As always just because some instructor says something in a class doesnt mean it is gospel.....even if they are former pipe hitters. You need to work through the info and get what is best for you. Think about the instructors background and where their experience helped to formulate what they teach. What works in a combat zone (even by true tip of the spear guys) does not necessarily translate into your environment. Environment being one of the key factors in how we respond to threats. How we process info is paramount, it would be nice to see more "problem solving" classes that make you think and process and not just shooting classes.....that is what I generally look for in a class.

Offline JohnyMac

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Re: Tactical response
« Reply #49 on: August 15, 2016, 09:57:19 AM »
Good comments gents.

Same thing with your primary.

I was always told to not look at your receiver when you run out of ammo. Boy O' boy that was a hard habit to break. Then one day I took a class taught by a Sergeant Reservist. He told us that it was ok to take a peak at your open receiver as it is a natural response. Heck you could have a jam and just think your mag is empty.

Instead of practicing on not looking, look and practice reloading swiftly to get back into the fight. 
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