Author Topic: Surplus Rifles & WROL/SHTF  (Read 5868 times)

Alex1992

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Surplus Rifles & WROL/SHTF
« on: December 03, 2011, 07:38:42 PM »
Now today's rifles like the AK and the AR and the FN FAL are great rifles, expensive and sometimes inexpensive are major improvements from rifles used in WW1 and WW2 etc but that doesn't make them better. These old rifles are useful as any other rifle. Now can they be used during a SHTF/WROL problem. Yes. Now some are in bad shape to the point where they are not usable and some can be used. Guns like the Lee Enfield are being used by the Taliban, Mosin Nagants are being used by collectors, hunters, target shooters, M14 is gaining back popularity because of Special Forces, list goes on. Surplus rifles can be indeed used during a WROL/SHTF scenario depends how dependable they are. Now I'm not suggesting anything, it is entirely up to you to decide what to use and not use. Tell me what you think and give any thoughts or suggestions. Thank you. O0

Offline mountainredneck2051

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Re: Surplus Rifles & WROL/SHTF
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2011, 08:11:05 PM »
old military weapons such as the m1 garand m1 carbine mosin nagants ect are extremely poor choices for wrol in my opinion, and i would only suggest them if you are on an EXTREME budget

in my opinion in shtf you want as much firepower as possible while maintaining a light compact package with as much commonality in ammunition and parts as possible

which makes things like mosins and lee enfeilds a pretty poor choice

i'll go into it more later but i got things to do tonight
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Offline Kentactic

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Re: Surplus Rifles & WROL/SHTF
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2011, 09:01:36 PM »
yes the major draw back of some of the guns you listed is ammo availability. but then again if your shooting in SHTF so much that your running low on ammo then there are likely others that were shooting back...and that means the dead guys have guns and ammo laying around aswell.. so the surplus rifle could be used in the idea that it will only obtain you a better suited rifle once the SHTF...and that dosent mean go hunting for a new gun..it means if you come accross a better rifle or win a fire fight then take advantage of what youve found... hopefully it will be a more common caliber..and hopefully youve trained on that particular rifle to be able to use it well..

which brings me to the next piont. if you plan to use your surplus rifle to obtain a better suited rifle later due to your low budget then you hopefully have friends who arent on a low budget that can let you shoot there platforms that are suited for SHTF.

now if you didnt catch the fault in this plan when i said it above let me point it out to you now. if you want to win a fire fight your best chances of doing so is by having the proper rifle. its hard to win an honest fight with a surplus rifle when your enemies pumping rounds at you with the AR youd like to have when he dies.

now if you are trying to obtain his AR then you must have followed the rules above and have trained on it...so since your broke this must mean you have friends with AR's and AK's etc...so maybe they can help you win that bad guys rifle.. hopefully they are onboard with your way of life prior and your all able to become a team during SHTF.

So yes in certain situations the surplus budget rifle options are a realistic choice for a person on a tight budget but like most stuff on this forum.. situation dictates.

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Offline rah45

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Re: Surplus Rifles & WROL/SHTF
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2011, 10:54:40 PM »
Surplus rifles definitely are outclassed, in terms of firepower, by modern rifles designed for combat. 30, or even 20, rounds of ammo in detachable magazines is far superior to 5, 8 or 10 rounds of ammo on stripper clips. Establishing and maintaining firepower superiority on a battlefield is often a vital component of victory, especially if you are outnumbered. We must all assume that, if we are attacked, we will be outnumbered at least 2 or 3 to one. Wolves usually operate in packs.

Surplus rifles are not always chambered in ammunition that isn't commonly available. The Lee Enfield in .303 is certainly not common, and the ammunition is not cheap. However, by contrast the Mosin Nagant's ammunition, while no longer used by police and military forces, is extremely affordable and is also used by hunters, collectors, etc. in the civilian sector. The M1 Garand uses the still-popular 30'06, and is a very reliable, accurate, and semi-automatic rifle capable of making accurate shots several hundred yards away and still retain killing power.

Regarding the philosophy that you'll use your milsurp rifle to obtain a better rifle...well, let's think more on that, shall we? If you are most likely outnumbered (already covered this point), you probably will not be able to just run out and grab the rifle from the first guy you shot. If you are fortunate enough to be behind actual cover (not just concealment), the people who are attacking you likely did it at a time where you are at a disadvantage. Perhaps you were asleep when the attack began. Perhaps you were separated from the main building they constantly see you around, the building where your supplies and ammunition happen to be, and all you have is that one bandoleer of ammunition for the entire firefight.

3 guys with modern rifles, each with at least 60 rounds (not being generous here, because there's no guarantee they'll be well supplied, either), makes a minimum of 180 rounds incoming to your position. Count in tactics used by the opposition (assuming they think on the level we do here - do you really want to assume they don't?), and I seriously doubt you'll be able to do much besides desperately fend off flanking maneuvers. So many things have to go right in order for you to be able to actually get that rifle. So, you had better be Carlos friggin' Hathcock, or you had better be extremely clever about defense, because if it's just you vs. 2 or 3 similarly skilled guys with superior firepower, your ass is probably toast. Milsurp rifles are good for two scenarios, from what I've read: 1) Hit and run/guerrilla warfare, and 2) Long-range engagements (100 yards, minimum). Anything other than that, and I don't see how you'd be likely to survive against people of similar skill.

Which brings us to my essential point: if you only have a milsurp weapon as your primary, your only real hope is to truly know your weapon. Train with it. A lot. This means, preferably, get one that fires readily available and cheap (or at least somewhat affordable) ammunition. So, avoid the Lee Enfield-type rifles that are cool collectibles but are no longer practical for prepper purchase. Use the Nagants, and possibly the Garands or SKS's. That seems to be the logical decision to make.

Again, my opinions are just from things I've read. Your mileage may vary, and I'd love to read other opinions.

Offline mountainredneck2051

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Re: Surplus Rifles & WROL/SHTF
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2011, 11:30:04 PM »
while i agree with you on many parts to your post rah i would also like to counter some of your points

for 1.  the m1 garand while ammunition is plenitful (as in 30-06 hunting rounds) it sure as hell aint cheap (about $1 per round or more at every store in my state) and milsurp 30-06 is very rare, also i don't know about your AO but garands cost like 1100-1500 here, definitely not cheap

while we are talking power at ranges i would also like to say
1. the modern ar15 firing a 5.56mm nato round has plenty of power to effectively engage the enemy out past 600yds
guys in afghanistan are dropping hajis at extreme ranges with their m4's every day
2. well atleast to me i don't consider it to be long range unless were talking 400yds or more
3. i can see absolutely no scenario (other than fantasy) where we will be firing on someone out past 300yds

and in closing, i have yet to see a milsurp rifle that aint "fucked up"
mosins got fucked up bolts, fucked up sights, fucked up barrels, ect......
i have yet to see a mosin that does not need some work


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Offline crudos

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Re: Surplus Rifles & WROL/SHTF
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2011, 12:15:11 AM »
while i agree with you on many parts to your post rah i would also like to counter some of your points

for 1.  the m1 garand while ammunition is plenitful (as in 30-06 hunting rounds) it sure as hell aint cheap (about $1 per round or more at every store in my state) and milsurp 30-06 is very rare, also i don't know about your AO but garands cost like 1100-1500 here, definitely not cheap

and in closing, i have yet to see a milsurp rifle that aint "fucked up"
mosins got fucked up bolts, fucked up sights, fucked up barrels, ect......
i have yet to see a mosin that does not need some work
- You can still get nice Field and Service grade Garands at well under $1k from CMP.

- Though your experience with MN's may find them to be "fucked-up", my Finnish Mosin Nagants don't have anything "fucked-up" on them. They all hit were I point them, with hardly any work, which was really just clean-up and checking over the parts for wear. The bolts cycle as nice as any modern bolt action, and are rugged as hell. A bit mis-informed to broadly proclaim them "fucked-up". Just saying...

Offline mountainredneck2051

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Re: Surplus Rifles & WROL/SHTF
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2011, 12:20:17 AM »
like i said, i have yet to see one that aint fucked up

didn't say they all were, i said i never seen one that wasn't........
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Offline crudos

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Re: Surplus Rifles & WROL/SHTF
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2011, 12:38:09 AM »
like i said, i have yet to see one that aint fucked up

didn't say they all were, i said i never seen one that wasn't........
Curious to what you mean "fucked up"?

For the money they cost, the cost per round, and the age of the system, it's a pretty amazing rifle, all things considered.

Offline mountainredneck2051

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Re: Surplus Rifles & WROL/SHTF
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2011, 12:58:12 AM »
pitted barrels, canted sights, stocks all fucked up, bolts stick when they get hot (not that big of a deal to fix)

just in general fucked up old used up rifles
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Offline rah45

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Re: Surplus Rifles & WROL/SHTF
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2011, 01:15:21 AM »
while i agree with you on many parts to your post rah i would also like to counter some of your points

for 1.  the m1 garand while ammunition is plenitful (as in 30-06 hunting rounds) it sure as hell aint cheap (about $1 per round or more at every store in my state) and milsurp 30-06 is very rare, also i don't know about your AO but garands cost like 1100-1500 here, definitely not cheap

As crudos said, CMP ( if they have any in stock) sells service and field grade M1s for only a few hundred dollars. Two years ago while searching online, I came across more than a couple sources of 30'06 milsurp, but then again it was two years ago and that may have changed.


while we are talking power at ranges i would also like to say
1. the modern ar15 firing a 5.56mm nato round has plenty of power to effectively engage the enemy out past 600yds
guys in afghanistan are dropping hajis at extreme ranges with their m4's every day
2. well atleast to me i don't consider it to be long range unless were talking 400yds or more
3. i can see absolutely no scenario (other than fantasy) where we will be firing on someone out past 300yds

1 & 2) I think that "effective" is a relative term, and I also have spoken with several Marines and soldiers who fought in Afghanistan and wished they had been issued a rifle chambered in 7.62 NATO. Their statements to me were that the 5.56 wasn't "effective" (again, relative term) at the ranges that the hajis were engaging them with older model, higher caliber, bolt-action rifles
3) The only scenarios I envisioned a milsurp rifle being properly used are listed in my original post.  ;)


and in closing, i have yet to see a milsurp rifle that aint "fucked up"
mosins got fucked up bolts, fucked up sights, fucked up barrels, ect......
i have yet to see a mosin that does not need some work

I'm not saying you're wrong about many milsurp rifles, but I will say this: you can take a milsurp rifle you bought for less than $100, and for not much more investment you can make it do what a factory standard Remington 700 is able to do for the average shooter. The point is that you can get the same performance from a rifle that potentially costs much less and it is easy to locate and purchase both the rifle and its ammunition.

Offline crudos

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Re: Surplus Rifles & WROL/SHTF
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2011, 11:10:56 AM »
Just some general thoughts about points brought up...

- Firepower in a WROL situation is not all it's cracked up to be. My thought is that there will always be someone(s) better armed that yourself or your group. If it's just me and my old, supposedly used-up surplus rifle, then I need to operate smarter than the other guy(s) to survive, so appropriate measures and training will be taken. A well-placed shot or two from a 7.62x54r round can be just as effective as multiple magazines of whatever flavor tacticool round is being used against me. It only takes one bullet to ruin your day.

It sucks that mountainredneck has run into all these issues with milsurps. But like anything in life, your mileage may vary.

Offline Kentactic

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Re: Surplus Rifles & WROL/SHTF
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2011, 12:29:29 PM »
Quote
Surplus rifles are not always chambered in ammunition that isn't commonly available. The Lee Enfield in .303 is certainly not common, and the ammunition is not cheap. However, by contrast the Mosin Nagant's ammunition, while no longer used by police and military forces, is extremely affordable and is also used by hunters, collectors, etc. in the civilian sector. The M1 Garand uses the still-popular 30'06, and is a very reliable, accurate, and semi-automatic rifle capable of making accurate shots several hundred yards away and still retain killing power.

I always seem to get shit from the 30-06 supporters when i say this but neither of those calibers are nearly common enough to be considered common calibers. the military nor the police use either of them.  and the hunters who do shoot them have 1 box laying around from back when they tried to shoot at a deer 5 years back. so in my book it is in the same boat as the lee enfield is.

Quote
Regarding the philosophy that you'll use your milsurp rifle to obtain a better rifle...well, let's think more on that, shall we? If you are most likely outnumbered (already covered this point), you probably will not be able to just run out and grab the rifle from the first guy you shot. If you are fortunate enough to be behind actual cover (not just concealment), the people who are attacking you likely did it at a time where you are at a disadvantage. Perhaps you were asleep when the attack began. Perhaps you were separated from the main building they constantly see you around, the building where your supplies and ammunition happen to be, and all you have is that one bandoleer of ammunition for the entire firefight.


"now if you are trying to obtain his AR then you must have followed the rules above and have trained on it...so since your broke this must mean you have friends with AR's and AK's etc...so maybe they can help you win that bad guys rifle.. hopefully they are onboard with your way of life prior and your all able to become a team during SHTF."

as my quote shows i never said try to out gun a guy with an AR when yoiu have a surplus rifle. the only way you can even consider a surplus rifle as your primary is if you have friends with proper rifles as there primarys to back you up. essentially your surplus rifle is just something that goes bang until you get a real rifle in your hands.


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Offline Kobalt

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Re: Surplus Rifles & WROL/SHTF
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2011, 12:39:10 PM »
I think a M1 Grand would be ok for a battle rifle. As far as oldschool battle rifles go, I think they would preform above expectations. Fal g3 or m14 are some of the best. If you are going to rock a Big battle rifle, make sure it has a 20 rd mag or more. Bolt actions are simply not fast enough for the main security team, but for guard duty they will do fine. I like the idea of a minute man with a bolt action rifle, But if you cant afford to equip them, its basically useless. I have been thinking about a battle rifle, And I might buy one when its time to buy my main rifle.
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Offline rah45

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Re: Surplus Rifles & WROL/SHTF
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2011, 02:36:59 PM »
I always seem to get shit from the 30-06 supporters when i say this but neither of those calibers are nearly common enough to be considered common calibers. the military nor the police use either of them.  and the hunters who do shoot them have 1 box laying around from back when they tried to shoot at a deer 5 years back. so in my book it is in the same boat as the lee enfield is.

I didn't say it was common, I said it was popular. My point was that you will be able to find ammunition for it, unlike some other milsurp rifles such as the Lee Enfield, which you would be hard-pressed to find at all. I didn't say you'd walk into an arsenal of 30'06.  ;)

as my quote shows i never said try to out gun a guy with an AR when yoiu have a surplus rifle. the only way you can even consider a surplus rifle as your primary is if you have friends with proper rifles as there primarys to back you up. essentially your surplus rifle is just something that goes bang until you get a real rifle in your hands.

I never said that you did. My comments were not directed solely at you. I was describing my views on the surplus rifle issue in general. I do disagree with one part of this statement, though. Some people may never require a modern battle/assault rifle to fulfill their needs. I know that Mtnrdnck lives in the mountains (der), and if you can get high enough and still have a place worth defending, it may be okay to have only a customized Mosin Nagant or two with a a couple of thousand rounds of cheap, milsurp ammunition. There are no absolutes in these scenarios we discuss. The second you believe that you've got the guy with the fancy AR/AK/FAL/M1A/Golden Gun setup cornered with your battle rifle, is the second that Murphy intervenes in the form of the guy with the icepick who just silently crawled out from under that car you just passed. I would definitely recommend what you prescribed as a solution for those with milsurp rifles, but to imply that is the only choice for success is stretching the truth, in my opinion.

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Re: Surplus Rifles & WROL/SHTF
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2011, 04:25:03 PM »
The one weakness of the average milsurp rifle is its greatest strength.  That being lack of firepower.  Follow my zen here.  People can brag all they want about their AR's, AK's, etc, but I've been in a real firefight.  Assault rifles are "keep the bad guy's head down" rifles.  Windows of engagement are brief, you rarely see the enemy except in brief glimpses, and both sides are darting from cover to cover.  In a WROL overwatch capacity, bolt action rifles are usually scoped and can penetrate small to medium trees or even 1/4" to 3/8" steel plate to tag the bad guy behind it.  The lack of firepower is made up for in optics and a more powerful round.  An individual in a firefight with a bolt-action would get torn up.  But IN A GROUP it is highly effective, especially if you trail or shadow your squad by about 100 yards and not directly engaged in the main firefight. [URL=http://www.smileyvault.co   

Offline rah45

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Re: Surplus Rifles & WROL/SHTF
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2011, 06:25:02 PM »
Excellent points, 1000meterstare!

Offline mountainredneck2051

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Re: Surplus Rifles & WROL/SHTF
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2011, 07:08:56 PM »
i think deep down we all know rifles are an ok option, but an ar15, or ak47 is the best choice
if you master our weapon and work on your fire discipline your fuckin golden in every "realistic" scenario

but i'm starting to get a jones to buy a m1a just for shits and giggles though 
always loved them things might as well buy one already......
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Alex1992

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Re: Surplus Rifles & WROL/SHTF
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2011, 07:21:53 PM »
Now believe me I love the AR the AK, FN FAL, G3 etc but if the Mosin Nagant or M1 Garand is accurate and reliable use it or give it to somebody who needs it or use it as a long range rifle or hunting.

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Re: Surplus Rifles & WROL/SHTF
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2011, 07:32:00 PM »
Some of the points made in this thread have been excellent. However, I have one additional point to add: Old bolt rifles can serve as hand-out weapons.
Example: Johnny Unprepared from next door comes over a week after the collapse wanting a rifle so that he can form a mutual defense pact with you (sort of a Germany/Japan situation). You hand him your hundred-year-old Nagant and you have one more fighting man in your community. Now, you're going to have to teach Johnny Unprepared how to operate that weapon efficiently and effectively and that could be a real pain in the ass, but at least that's one more man watching your back. All right, take that as you will.

Offline Kentactic

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Re: Surplus Rifles & WROL/SHTF
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2011, 07:41:37 PM »
Quote
I didn't say it was common, I said it was popular. My point was that you will be able to find ammunition for it, unlike some other milsurp rifles such as the Lee Enfield, which you would be hard-pressed to find at all. I didn't say you'd walk into an arsenal of 30'06. 


use what ever terms you want im saying you WONT be able to find enough ammo to make that caliber worth holding.
Quote
I never said that you did. My comments were not directed solely at you. I was describing my views on the surplus rifle issue in general. I do disagree with one part of this statement, though. Some people may never require a modern battle/assault rifle to fulfill their needs. I know that Mtnrdnck lives in the mountains (der), and if you can get high enough and still have a place worth defending, it may be okay to have only a customized Mosin Nagant or two with a a couple of thousand rounds of cheap, milsurp ammunition. There are no absolutes in these scenarios we discuss. The second you believe that you've got the guy with the fancy AR/AK/FAL/M1A/Golden Gun setup cornered with your battle rifle, is the second that Murphy intervenes in the form of the guy with the icepick who just silently crawled out from under that car you just passed. I would definitely recommend what you prescribed as a solution for those with milsurp rifles, but to imply that is the only choice for success is stretching the truth, in my opinion.

to say that a rifle with cheap milsurp ammo in a high secluded place will be good enough for some people is silly beause your implying that the rifle hes holding is magically accurate beyond the milsurp ammo he is shooting...accuracy is paramount in his secluded location especially. so even in that situation the poor accuracy of his mosin nagant isnt going to do the job. and your also assuming that no one with any fire power or ability with a decent rifle will show up.

this all brings me back to my origonal point that a surplus rifle will only do the job when backed up by proper rifles that can compete in any situation given.
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Offline NOLA556

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Re: Surplus Rifles & WROL/SHTF
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2011, 07:47:31 PM »
my .02: no one should make the conscious decision to choose an old milsurp rifle for their primary unless they're so broke that they can't afford anything more than a $100 Mosin. if  that's truly the situation for someone, then I say more power to them. but if you've got more options than that, you should always strive for what has been proven to be most effective within your price range. and considering that an sks can be had for $200-250, and a WASR can be had for $400, I really don't see much of a financial excuse to go the Mosin route.

and to the guys advocating old bolt actions being just as effective... well in the rights hands, I can see that. but just for the sake of argument, lets say every soldier in army-A is equipped with an AR15, and every soldier in army-B has a Mosin Nagant... both armies have the same number of soldiers... who are you putting money on?
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Offline mountainredneck2051

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Re: Surplus Rifles & WROL/SHTF
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2011, 08:52:57 PM »
look at WWI

firepower is what did the job not a well trained man and his rifle
automatic weapons dominated the war
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Offline rah45

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Re: Surplus Rifles & WROL/SHTF
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2011, 08:57:00 PM »
Quote from: Kentactic
use what ever terms you want im saying you WONT be able to find enough ammo to make that caliber worth holding.

I agree with you, to the extent that choosing a rifle in a caliber other than 7.62x39, 7.62 NATO, 5.56 NATO, or similarly prevalent calibers is not going to help a person find it during WROL. I'm only saying that it won't be impossible with certain calibers. 7.62x54r is very plentiful, and easy to stockpile. If you aren't bugging out, and can cache the ammo in various locations, you shouldn't need to find any. 30'06, while not stockpiled, can still be found in enough quantities to serve someone's basic hunting or (brief) self-defense needs.

I think, Ken, you believe I'm advocating a milsurp rifle as a primary. I'm not. If you only have $400 or so, by all means get yourself an AK system and stockpile that milsurp ammo. I'm only discussing the advantages that milsurp rifles do possess.

Quote from: Kentactic
to say that a rifle with cheap milsurp ammo in a high secluded place will be good enough for some people is silly beause your implying that the rifle hes holding is magically accurate beyond the milsurp ammo he is shooting...accuracy is paramount in his secluded location especially. so even in that situation the poor accuracy of his mosin nagant isnt going to do the job. and your also assuming that no one with any fire power or ability with a decent rifle will show up.

this all brings me back to my origonal point that a surplus rifle will only do the job when backed up by proper rifles that can compete in any situation given.

I'm not saying that Mosin Nagants transform hillbillies into Green Berets on God Mode. What I mean is that, for someone on a budget, a Nagant can serve basic self-defense needs in such a secluded location (I mean, really, how many people are going to hike up past the first half of the mountain?). If the person uses it correctly (as in, guerrilla warfare and sniping instead of engaging in a firefight), they would not necessarily be outgunned. I'm really not assuming anything, here. He probably would encounter someone, eventually, who meant him harm. The point is that, as long as he maintains situational awareness as much as possible, knows his terrain and uses all of it to his advantage, he can use that milsurp rifle to devastating effect.

Regarding the milsurp rifle and ammo affecting accuracy: I didn't say that you could just pick up any milsurp rifle and expect excellent accuracy. You'd need to repair/upgrade it as necessary. However, from reading on the internet, it seems that getting a Mosin Nagant brought up to accuracy standards can be done for less than $200. So, theoretically, you could have a DM rifle for $200-300, ready to go. Regarding the milsurp ammo: do you think that everyone with a modern rifle has newly manufactured ammunition? Many people stockpile the milsurp because 1) it's cheap and 2) most firefights occur at fewer than 100 yards away. I think it's ridiculous to assume we're going to be able to identify hostiles at ranger longer than 200 yards (even with a scope), so in my opinion the surplus ammo need only be accurate enough to hit a man's torso at 200 yards. If you can do that, you're good. In WROL, he's not getting medivaced. He's just going to die.

Now, would I WANT to be the lone mountain man armed only with the Mosin? Hell no. I'd rather be with a community of like-minded people armed with a variety of modern battle rifles covered by an overwatch with quality, scoped, semi-auto DM rifles. I'm just saying don't rule out a milsurp rifle just because it's not as optimal as the modern rifles. The fact is this: YOU make your weapon. Would an M1A in the hands of my guy be more effective? Yes! However, it doesn't mean that he cannot inflict serious pain with a Mosin Nagant or similar milsurp rifle. He will need to put in much more training with it and know his AO extremely well, but he is potentially a very deadly adversary. The weapon NEVER makes the warrior; it only enhances his abilities. The warrior uses what he has to best effect, and if he's trained properly he should be feared.

Offline mountainredneck2051

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Re: Surplus Rifles & WROL/SHTF
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2011, 09:00:58 PM »
why would i want a $300 mosin when i can get a used rem 700 in 308 for $300????

all i'm tryin to say is you can do quite a bit better for just a hundred more than a mosin (sks)
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Offline rah45

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Re: Surplus Rifles & WROL/SHTF
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2011, 09:03:02 PM »
look at WWI

firepower is what did the job not a well trained man and his rifle
automatic weapons dominated the war

That example is also irrelevant to the context of this discussion. Automatic weapons dominated because they had a constant supply feed, plus riflemen (with bolt-actions!  :P ) to defend their flanks. There is no guaranteed resupply in WROL, and I doubt many of us will have several trained riflemen to guard our flanks.