Unchained Preppers
General Category => Security & Survival => Topic started by: gadget99 on February 24, 2016, 09:54:30 AM
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Hi all,
OK..... here it goes
First let me declair that I am a firearm nut. I love them. Yet I live in the UK now so cannot easily have them.
Preppers in general place a high value on firearms. If you live in a society where you can have them, then that is all in the good.
If you love having the latest and greatest AR then keep collecting.
As a prepper though there needs to be a certain amount of understanding about the correlation between firearms and prepping.
What the prepper needs in firearms that they can use to take game. Yes having the ability to defend yourself is important. Yet I must point out that if you get yourself into a situation where you MUST have military grade firearms to defend yourself. Then you have significantly failed. To survive a SHTF it is so very important to do what is needed to insure that conflict is avoided.
The romantic notion that a small group or a single person can survive alone against the rampaging hoards is unfortunatly a romantic notion.
I myself in different circumstances (not in the UK) would value the simple 22lr. Why you may ask? It is quite simple. With a well sighted in 22 I am comfortable with my ability to take head shots withing 100m. Very few people have head armor and if they do I cna get a neck or face shot at that distance no problem.
By all means if you can afford to do so get higher power stuff. Yet I would point out that a high caliber hunting rifle cost a great deal less than an AR or such. I can think of hundreds of positive purchases I can invest the difference in for my preps.
Let me be completely clear on this. One well placed shot by a confident rifleman is worth massivley more than emptying a 30rd mag in the general direction of the threat. Yes have semi-auto stuff if you can afford it. Compare the cost of a .223 round to the cost of a 22lr round.
Get to the range and train. Make sure you have the ability and confidence to hit exactly where you are aiming. Then you can chill a bit on the defence angle and pay more attention to sustinance and keeping hidden from the threats that may be out there.
The other dynamic here is that to survive in the long term, people are going to have to band together and create self supporting communities. Strength in numbers is important.
I realize that this explaination is overly simplistic, yet the point needed to be made.
We have body armor for the family in preperation for the simplistic oh shit. Murphy's law is a bitch. We do have items that we can legally have that are useful for defence. Yet they are most useful for taking game.
There is something to be said for the quiet capability of a good, yet budget friendly crossbow.
Due to the lack of firearms here. Instead of a pistol I carry a really good sword. I also practice with it as much as possible so that I am good with close in situations.
As I said this is just the musings of a mildly crazy american living in the UK.
The floor is open to questions.
Cheers
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Some good comments gadget.
IMO, a cross bow or a compound bow is an excellent weapon. Silent and deadly however it will not put a 100-250 lb animal down with one shot. EVERY deer I have taken with a bow traveled up to 50 or so yards before it succumbed to its wound.
At the cabin we have compound and cross bows. The cross bow with it's scoped optics is very accurate. As you write gadget, like anything else whether it growing veggies, canning or shooting. The weapon of choice is worthless if you don't practice.
As I write this I just have to ask: what have you canned this past 12 months? Or are you waiting for the STHF to crack open that DYI book?
True enough, a 22LR is a great weapon. I had a uncle who would poach deer using a 22 LR and head shot combo.
Which brings me to hunting post SHTF - You and everybody will be shooting, snaring or what ever other form of capture you feed your family - Even if you have canned protein. Wildlife will quickly be taken and eaten. Please DO NOT think you are going to hold up in the wilderness and live off the meat you harvest from the woods. It ain't going to happen because how many other folks are acting on the same plan.
A central point to what you wrote gadget, that you will not be able to survive alone or within a small family post SHTF is right on the money. Think of the frontiersman and women who went through the Cumberland Gap into Ken-tuck-ee in the middle to late 1800's. Think Daniel Boone: frontier-folk who first built a fort and then worked on their land. Safety in numbers folks...Safety in numbers.
With that written, when was the last time you reached out to your neighbors to at the bare minimum understand their strengths and weaknesses. If they are like minded, all the better. That is what I was trying to get across when I started the thread on "Fire teams" and patrolling (http://unchainedpreppers.com/forum/weapons/fire-team-%28s%29/). A surviving community has to have firearms, run patrols and aggressively defend their turf.
I have had debates with Max Velocity and Sam Culper about just this subject. Max about tactics and Sam about communication & intelligence. In short they think that most prepper minded folks think that once the other shoe drops, they will lie back and live off their preps in peace and harmony. It ain't going to happen brothers and sisters. What would you do if your tribe (Family) was starving? I know what I would do and I wouldn't stop at a murder or two.
I do not disagree with what you have written gadget. I just want to bring some reality home to the folks on this forum and good God, we are getting closer and closer to that SHTF day.
Beating the old drum or :deadHorse: of the three B's - Beans, Band-aides and Bullets plus one more...Practice.
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As you said “The Floor is Open To Questions”
On your side if the pond you make a fairly good argument seeing that very few people have guns. Now when you say Head Shot, I’ve seen newspaper stories where people were shot in the head and didn’t even know they were shot, they thought it was a Bee sting, also a guy shot point blank and the bullet bounced off.
I’ve shot the NRA Prone match on a windy day at 100yrds, I scored 198 - 13X to win that section of the match, I beat the state champ . What I’m getting at you not only have to be good you have to be lucky.
MHO is if you need only one shot then you started the confrontation but if you are out numbered it is better to have a weapon that has much better knock down power than a 22lr.
On this side of the pond we have drug gangs which are in every state, they’re good at what they do which means you need fire power. Even a small community would have big problems defending themselves.
Now a good crossbow would be excellent for taking out the lead intruder at night, but the are single shot weapons. Twenty or 30 round magazines of good caliper, well it’s better to have and not need than need and not have.
Very good post. It got me thinking.
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Some good comments gadget.
IMO, a cross bow or a compound bow is an excellent weapon. Silent and deadly however it will not put a 100-250 lb animal down with one shot. EVERY deer I have taken with a bow traveled up to 50 or so yards before it succumbed to its wound.
At the cabin we have compound and cross bows. The compound bow, with it's scoped optics is very accurate. As you write gadget, like anything else whether it growing veggies, canning or shooting. The weapon of choice is worthless if you don't practice.
As I write this I just have to ask: what have you canned this past 12 months? Or are you waiting for the STHF to crack open that DYI book?
True enough, a 22LR is a great weapon. I had a uncle who would poach deer using a 22 LR and head shot combo.
Which brings me to hunting post SHTF - You and everybody will be shooting, snaring or what ever other form of capture you feed your family. Even if you have canned protein. Wild life will quickly taken and eaten. Please DO NOT think you are going to hold up in the wilderness and live off the meat you harvest from the woods. It ain't going to happen because how many other folks have the same plan.
A central point to what you wrote gadget that you will not be able to survive alone or within a small family post SHTF is right on the money. Think of the frontiersman and women who went through the Cumberland Gap into Ken-tuck-ee in the middle to late 1800's. Think Daniel Boon and frontiers-folk who first built a fort and then worked on their land. Safety in numbers folks...Safety in numbers.
With that written, when was the last time you reached out to your neighbors to at the bare minimum understand their strengths and weaknesses. If they are like minded, all the better. That is what I was trying to get across when I started the thread on "Fire teams" and patrolling ([url]http://unchainedpreppers.com/forum/weapons/fire-team-%28s%29/[/url]). A surviving community has to have firearms, run patrols and aggressively defend their turf.
I have had debates with Max Velocity and Sam Culper about just this subject. Max about tactics and Sam about communication & intelligence. In short they think that most prepper minded folks think that once the other shoe drops, they will lie back and live off their preps in peace and harmony. It ain't going to happen brothers and sisters. What would you do if your tribe (Family) was starving? I know what I would do and I wouldn't stop at a murder or two.
I do not disagree with what you have written gadget. I just want to bring some reality home to the folks on this forum and good God, we are getting closer and closer to that SHTF day.
Beating the old drum or :deadHorse: of the three B's - Beans, Band-aides and Bullets plus one more...Practice.
Good questions JM.
I have not canned anything as of late. Yet what I have done is but massive amounts of freeze dried stuff and vacumme sealed it. Lots of mixed veg, soya mince and chuncks, rice, beans, quenoa and such.
Yes I have a loose network of people I know have abilities that can be used.
Even better. I have been gathering and authoring a community manual for SHTF. I admit I am in a unique situation. I am on the south coast of the UK. Accross from us is the Isle Of Wight. It is just big enough to be able to be self sustaining if required. That is our BOL. In the next year we are moving back there. A moat of one mile of sea will provide a good bit of security. So that is why I am a bit chilled.
What I wished to communicate was that, while having military grade firearms is all well and good. My advice to the average prepper is to concentrate on avoid fighting a war. Hunker down and let the storm pass over. Then get out and involved in rebuilding.
In the past there was a civil defense corps. There is no reason that the prepper community cannot fulfill that role in the future.
The problem with posting on a forum is that it is difficult to communicate complex thoughts and issues.
On the firearms thing though.
All I was trying to communicate is that a prepper can have an effective firearm that meets the needs at a budget cost. This can allow them to buy a great deal of rice and beans.
Cheers
Glad to see healthy debate.
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My advice to the average prepper is to concentrate on avoid fighting a war. Hunker down and let the storm pass over.
This goes against the philosophy of prepping. Wishful thinking will not prevent conflict.
We don't prepare for things that we would like to happen, we prepare for things that could happen. I would love if all I needed was a .22 rifle to stay alive, however I may need an AR15.
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Great stuff folks and a good open debate.
PLEASE when I use the word "you" I am not directing my thoughts towards gadget but all of us in the prepper community.
Gadget and his tribe has his shit together. :cheers:
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Great topic, Gadget. I agree, those of us still in the U.S., or in nations with ready access to firearms, tend to think of that first when prepping. I have an M1A, a 9mm pistol, and a .22 pistol - that's all I think I will need, bare-bones. Maybe I will need more ammunition, spare parts, etc., but I don't currently need an arsenal. My goal currently is food/water/med supplies/etc. Trying to get to that goal of one month's worth of storage, then two, then 3, then 6, etc.
Regarding community, that has me stumped. I've only lived in urban or suburban areas where those people immediately around me are very much into the modern American lifestyle, or are living largely off the government. I haven't seen more than a couple who I might consider "good" people, and those people I'm not sure would be of any use if SHTF - not the right mindset. Very nice, with good morals, but not really "strong." Still debating about whether to make this our home, or wait a couple of years until we're able to move to a very different location, because you guys are correct. Survival, long-term, will be about communities, not individuals or single families.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ghKdG238HI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ghKdG238HI)
I love it! This forum is about making due with what ya got in the confines of what is good and lawful.
One thing you might not be keen to Gadget, being an expat is that .22 is practically impossible to get your hands on in the states these days.. if fucking sucks!! I got used to being able to buy 500rds for $15 anytime I wanted!
I do agree with you though, one mind any weapon. I've been practicing with my bow, sling and arm!
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Beating the old drum or :deadHorse: of the three B's - Beans, Band-aides and Bullets plus one more...Practice.
You need to add 2 more Bs to that. Bullion and Barter.
Nemo
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Head shots from 100 yards with a 22 sounds great in theory. In what scenario will the target stand there to let you take it, that you can morally justify taking the shot? If he does know you're there and want to do him harm, can you make your head shot while he dumps his AR at you from behind cover or concealment?
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Beating the old drum or :deadHorse: of the three B's - Beans, Band-aides and Bullets plus one more...Practice.
You need to add 2 more Bs to that. Bullion and Barter.
Nemo
And add 1 more.
Booty.
The best entertainment in SHTF.
I'm married, so I have my bases covered.
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If you have the others that will be available from many who carry one you get an interest in. In many situations if you have beans or barter you can buy anything.
Nemo
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Thank you all for the responses.
Please let me make clear that I am in no way saying that having military grade firearms is the wrong way to go.
I was asked in another thread to share my opinion as an old infantryman.
All I wanted to point out is that while you may be geared up for a battle. It is imperative that you avoid having get into one. To win in something like that against more than one or two people you are straying into needing to employ military tactics with a trained group.
I was also trying to impart the view that hunting arms can be just as useful if you have trained with them. This point is aimed at the prepper such as myself that has limited means. If I was in the states I would find it difficult buying a nice Ar. However a good high-power hunting rifle would be within my means.
The last part of the opinion was that I am of the belief that the lone Wolf L, going it alone attitude I see prevailing in the prepper world may have its faults. Not saying I see it here as much. Mutually supporting groups and communities have a better chance of getting through things than individuals and small groups.
I hope this helps.
Cheers
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I agree with you whole heartedly Gadget, a lot of guys think it's gonna be all heroism because they've never slept on the ground in the rain..
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Head shots from 100 yards with a 22 sounds great in theory. In what scenario will the target stand there to let you take it, that you can morally justify taking the shot? If he does know you're there and want to do him harm, can you make your head shot while he dumps his AR at you from behind cover or concealment?
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Simple answer to this is yes I am trained and experienced enough to do this. Earned the t-shirt.
If I can do it then others can.
Oops.... Forgot to mention no offence took at all.
You ask a good question.
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Head shots from 100 yards with a 22 sounds great in theory. In what scenario will the target stand there to let you take it, that you can morally justify taking the shot? If he does know you're there and want to do him harm, can you make your head shot while he dumps his AR at you from behind cover or concealment?
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk
Simple answer to this is yes I am trained and experienced enough to do this. Earned the t-shirt.
If I can do it then others can.
Oops.... Forgot to mention no offence took at all.
You ask a good question.
So where do you stand?
A) There's no advantage to an AR style rifle in a gunfight and the military should switch to .22lr.
B) You are far superior in your training as to be able to overcome any disadvantages of a .22 and still be at an advantage against a man wielding an AR.
C) You've accepted the disadvantages of a .22 and have allocated the money to things you find to be of higher priority to your survival.
D) it's difficult to obtain an AR so you talk down it's advantages as a mental self preservation technique.
I'm in the E category.
E) You understand the advantages of an AR/AK but since you live in CA you make due with a pump shotgun despite the disadvantages. It's still more practical than an AK with a 10 round mag and a bullet button. Sure you could just convert it back to stock, but where would you train? It'd be a useful rifle you rarely train with due to the risk involved thus making it less useful than a pump shotgun.
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I agree with you whole heartedly Gadget, a lot of guys think it's gonna be all heroism because they've never slept on the ground in the rain..
<off topic>
add to that how few of our fellow countrymen (pick any first world country) have never experienced hunger - Or having to make their own critical decisions. then consider the anger and fear whey they are forced to in an environment they don't even recognize.
this is why i read and post to UP.
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Head shots from 100 yards with a 22 sounds great in theory. In what scenario will the target stand there to let you take it, that you can morally justify taking the shot? If he does know you're there and want to do him harm, can you make your head shot while he dumps his AR at you from behind cover or concealment?
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk
Simple answer to this is yes I am trained and experienced enough to do this. Earned the t-shirt.
If I can do it then others can.
Oops.... Forgot to mention no offence took at all.
You ask a good question.
So where do you stand?
A) There's no advantage to an AR style rifle in a gunfight and the military should switch to .22lr.
B) You are far superior in your training as to be able to overcome any disadvantages of a .22 and still be at an advantage against a man wielding an AR.
C) You've accepted the disadvantages of a .22 and have allocated the money to things you find to be of higher priority to your survival.
D) it's difficult to obtain an AR so you talk down it's advantages as a mental self preservation technique.
I'm in the E category.
E) You understand the advantages of an AR/AK but since you live in CA you make due with a pump shotgun despite the disadvantages. It's still more practical than an AK with a 10 round mag and a bullet button. Sure you could just convert it back to stock, but where would you train? It'd be a useful rifle you rarely train with due to the risk involved thus making it less useful than a pump shotgun.
Not sure how best to answer this really.
Simplistically I am for option E.
In a more complex answer......
My way is just that. I am not knocking anyone with this thread. Well with one exception. I AM knocking the small population of preppers out there (Not here at UP) that spend huge amounts of time concentrating on how they are going to fight the Great SHTF War. I am at fault for assuming much of them have not been in a war type situation before. I know what something like that looks like. There is a price to be paid for that experience. I can honestly say that those without the training and experiance need to equally concentrate on how to stay out of a fight.
For gods sake yes by all means aquire whatever means of self defence that you can afford and legally aquire. If faced with an unavoidable threat then by all means do not hesitate to remove the threat.
I was asked for my view on firearms and prepping.
That view is that if you have the means and legal ability to have military grade firearms then by all means do so.
I wished to communicate that for those that do not have the means or legal ability to do so. All is not lost. Hunting grade firearms can be effective if used properly in your tactics. Yes I used the 22lr as the extreme example. It is far from useless used properly. I wished to communicate that in the prepping budget the new prepper could easily gain the impression that the vast majority should be spent on firearms. I am of the opinion that this may not be a good thing.
I live in the UK. Let me tell you an American Prepper living in the UK has to do some serious modification of planning to figure out how to adapt. In doing this I am comfortable that I have the bases covered without firearms. I have had to.
Cheers
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Yep good stuff. Thanks for the reply.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk
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Yep good stuff. Thanks for the reply.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk
Damn........
I just realized my answer was overly defensive and such.
Let it be known that I at times am not the best at communicating effectivley. So if I post something that does not make sense please ask for clairity.
Cheers
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Yep good stuff. Thanks for the reply.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk
Damn........
I just realized my answer was overly defensive and such.
Let it be known that I at times am not the best at communicating effectivley. So if I post something that does not make sense please ask for clairity.
Cheers
I didn't take it to be defensive at all brother.
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American's speak highly of their gun rights. We're happy with the ARs we own compared to places like the UK (even some states in the US.) But honestly, I'd rather have an M79 in many situations, a case of claymores would be nice too. I feel that I am "making due" with an AR.
I have no idea what the situation where I will need it will be like. Anyone who claims that "it's gonna be like this" is lying to themselves. We might be heading in to a situation comparable to the dark ages/migration period.... I want all of the five Bs I can swing. I want all my friends to have them too. I want them all to be able to walk miles with a ruck and sleep on the ground in the rain. If all I could swing was a 22, crossbow or baseball bat I would have that.
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If all I could swing was a 22, crossbow or baseball bat I would have that.
My thoughts exactly. An Abrams division or a sharp stick. Best I can do with the hand life has dealt. Its that way now and will be for a bit longer anyway.
Nemo
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Guns are fun. Guns are useful. Guns don't grow on trees. My primary focus has always been on skill development.
Yes I do some stockpiling.
Yes I have some weaponry.
But at the end of the day those are all things that can be taken away from you and I'm not going to pretend that I'm willing to stand and die for a couple cans of beans. If I'm in a situation where I'm not convinced that I can come out on top I have no doubt that I would much rather haul ass.
I have been ACTIVELY prepping for probably the better part of a decade now and only now considering my first firearm because I've never liked the idea of becoming dependant on a tool of any kind. I prefer the idea that if I were to wake up butt naked in a field somewhere one day that I would at least have a better chance of making it through the night than Average Joe.
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Guns are fun. Guns are useful. Guns don't grow on trees. My primary focus has always been on skill development.
Yes I do some stockpiling.
Yes I have some weaponry.
But at the end of the day those are all things that can be taken away from you and I'm not going to pretend that I'm willing to stand and die for a couple cans of beans. If I'm in a situation where I'm not convinced that I can come out on top I have no doubt that I would much rather haul ass.
I have been ACTIVELY prepping for probably the better part of a decade now and only now considering my first firearm because I've never liked the idea of becoming dependant on a tool of any kind. I prefer the idea that if I were to wake up butt naked in a field somewhere one day that I would at least have a better chance of making it through the night than Average Joe.
I totally respect your opinion and you must be young and full of pi$$ and vinegar (sassy and strong). My wife and I Look like an easy target, she is 74 and I will be 75 this month so guns, weapons and fighting equipment are on the top of my list with physical training next. We work out four times a week. Short term and mid term food storage is next. Long term food with a 25-30 year shelf life would be ridicules at our age. Well maybe just a little bit of it.
I hope it doesn't come to where you have to protect your food stash. Besides it gets awful chilly being buck naked in an open field.
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Just a couple of factors to throw out there.
22 in my mind is not good at any task, it does however do a large variety of tasks good enough. Which is why it's so used
A buddy of mine recently took 8 hits from one point blank, including several to the head and he lived for a while before bleeding out.
My uncle had one put to his head and was shot execution style, he lived for years after that, (he was severely fucked up for life though)
My cousin shot herself in the head with the same gun, dead instantly
My point being while all 3 died, even headshots really shouldn't be trusted with the 22lr
My second point
Where I live, you can buy s&w, dpms, olympic, and bushmaster ar15's for under $600 New
Ak's cost the same 500-600 New
Mags are under 10 bucks each new for both
20rds of ammo can be had for either at $5 and some change.
The only rifles cheaper than that would be your typical deer bolt gun. $300-400minumum and then you need a scope, and at the end of the day you don't even have irons most likely.
My point being at the end of the day it's cheaper and far more intelligent to just buy the right tool.
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Weight is a significant factor.
Nemo
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Agreed jojo. You need to adapt to your personal situation. I have 40+ years until I am where you are and obviously my views and priorities will change in that time and we're also in very different climates (socially and economically too.
What red neck said is a good example. $600 for and AR? Here by me gun stores stock very few and you're looking at about R20k (that's about $1300).
AKs are scarily easy and cheap to get illegally but a new, legal one is damn near impossible and costs more than my car.
I have tried to like .22 but I HAAAAAAATE them. My personal opinion is that it equates to pissing in the wind. I eventually decided that I believe the rifles only belong with competition shooters and handguns with Hollywood assassins. Even Mrsninja has come around since she started shooting with 9mm.
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Not saying that the .22 is the be all and end all.
Concentrate on what tactics to intend to employ with whatever you have at hand.
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thedigininja,
not knowing the laws in your country I may be sounding like a fool here but I have been called a lot worse in my lifetime than a fool ;)
How about buying an 80% AR lower (http://www.tacticalmachining.com/80-products/80-ar15-lower-receivers/80-lower-receiver-anodized-gen-2.html) or a polymer lower (http://unchainedpreppers.com/forum/gear-review/polymer-ar-15-mold-resin-lowers/msg63537/#msg63537) you make? Would that be legal? Then as money becomes available add the bits and pieces needed to make it a complete rifle.
In the USofA you can legally make a AR (Not make for Sale without a manufacturing FFL) and there are plenty of kits out there that will help you through the build. Also I just read that 80% lower clubs are starting up around the country.
A club that folks join and built an AR from scratch under a tutelage of a teacher/coach.
Anyhow, this might be all mute if it is illegal to build a rifle in your country.
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Earlier in this thread the subject of "supressive fire" was mentioned.
I would like to note that supressive fire only works when allowed to be so.
Supressive fire is rarely well aimed and has been proven to be easily defeated by an individual that overcomes thier fear and concentrates on bringing aimed fire upon the enemy.
A confident marksman is worth more than a squad in a firefight.
Forget the myth of supressive fire in terms of what we prep for.
Train to the point where you conserve every round for positive impact on your enemy. My friends this is not brain surgery. Every single person on this forum with practice and training is capable of owning anything within 200m if they only apply themselves.
I know. I have trained hundreds Of troops to be capable of this with iron sights.
Just saying.
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jmac, I have no idea. I'll look into it, I've never actually considered it as a possibility.
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thedig, check out this 80% hand gun http://guncarrier.com/polymer-80-brought-new-unfinished-pistol-frame-shot/ (http://guncarrier.com/polymer-80-brought-new-unfinished-pistol-frame-shot/)