Lively

[Reaver]

Sure is a lot of activity in here.  [img]http://www.arrse.co.uk/at



Squad movements should look like this guys.









                                                    ALPHA TEAM
       
                                                        Pointman
                                                                 
                                            Grenadier                  SawGunner
                                                                              
                                    Tail end Charley
                                           
                                                                  Squad leader
                                                                    [img]http://www.arrse.co.uk/at

                                                    BRAVO TEAM
                                                            Point man
                                                                   
                                            Saw Gunner                Grenadier
                                                                              
                                                                                           Tail end Charley
                                                                                           
                                         
                   
Why not bring a little fun to the learning curve ya know?

[thatGuy]

I'm with you, what's the point of dividing your group into two smaller groups that roughly follow each other around?

[Currahee]

No matter how small your force it should be divided into (at least) two maneuver elements.

If one comes in to contact the second one is able to flank the bad guys.  This is the case if you are moving two guys or two battalions.

You always want to have another element ready to maneuver aggressively to bring the enemy under fire from a different direction (or in a worst case react to the enemy doing the same thing to you)

[Currahee]

The wedge, as reaver showed is the most basic movement method for infantry in (relatively) open ground.  It allows everyone in a fire team to have a clear field of fire to the front and half the team to have a clear field of fire to the sides.  A squad usually moves one fire team behind another... but the whole thing can be arranged by echelon to the right or left, depending on where you perceive a threat.

Here is what it looks like from the rear


That is a full squad with one team behind the other.  They will have to tighten their formation as they move into the woods to the front.

Here is another diagram of the squad wedge (in this one the squad is moving alone and the trailing rifleman has moved to the center to provide rear security.

[Reaver]

I don't know if you guys notice but the the Automatic rifleman or " Saw Gunner " ( The saw isn't called the saw because it saws bitches in two it really is just an acronym SAW Squad Automatic Weapon ) is positioned one to the left and one to the right. You MUST separate them like this. If both of your saw gunners are on the left and you get in engaged from the right your two most important weapons in the fight are out of action until they move into position instead of just the one having to move into position.

Trackin?

[Reaver]

Now what would be the procedure if contact was made from both left and right flanks at the same time?

This is an awesome sub-forum, great info for us lads that don't have the experience with these types of tactics. Keep it up!

Shit bro. I'm not to sure.

I know if I where in charge I would say break contact. That's just me though.

Pop smoke and beat feet.

[Currahee]

Now what would be the procedure if contact was made from both left and right flanks at the same time?

This is an awesome sub-forum, great info for us lads that don't have the experience with these types of tactics. Keep it up!

A lot of variables in your question... what kind of contact are we talking?  Is the whole squad in the kill zone of an ambush or just the first team?  Are there more units behind?  Are there simple potshots coming from both sides, accurate sniper fire or are you enfiladed by several belt fed MGs?  What does the terrain favor?  Are you an infantry platoon with instructions to find and fix the enemy or are you a recon team miles from support?  Or, more likely for this forum, are you a family trying to get to your BO location?

[Reaver]

The point man, should be on point. Further out.

The second team shouldn't be right up the anus of the first.

But, IF the entire section is in the killzone.... well shit.

[Reaver]

Well, your supposed to lay down a huge amount of fire. Win the fire superiority contest. Yoke up your dude and then break contact. Or Win the fire superiority contest kill the enemy then take care of your dude.

Either way. You DO NOT start taking care of your dude until fire superiority has been won.

[APX808]

Hey Reaver & Currahee, US Military doctrine heavily relies upon fire superiority, how do you think fire superiority could be replaced by an irregular force?
I think maneuver and hit and run tactics would be the key... But what do you think? Do you know any good books about the subject?

I really enjoy these tactics threads  [URL=http://www.smileyvault.co

[Currahee]

Hey Reaver & Currahee, US Military doctrine heavily relies upon fire superiority, how do you think fire superiority could be replaced by an irregular force?
I think maneuver and hit and run tactics would be the key... But what do you think? Do you know any good books about the subject?

I really enjoy these tactics threads

A very important discussion when trying to apply military tactics to the civilian group.  There are several options and considerations 1) hope you are not trying to fight a trained military force equipped with their basic equipment.  Their weakest weapon is our strongest, the intermediate carbine. 2) You can explore the idea of a "civilian SAW" basically a heavier barrel rifle with a bipod and an operator who knows how to work it fast.  But it will take a good bit of ammo to get there and you will never be as good as a belt fed.  3) Explore IEDs, I do not suggest that you start making them, that is against the law... but you need to know how when the time comes 4) know how to operate the heavy weapons of friendly and enemy forces alike, should they become available. 5) Master the weapons you have, you need to no how to deliver rapid accurate fire from zero to their max range under highly stressful situations (I'm gonna make a stress inoculation video when I get around to it) 6) Lastly recognize that you are inferior to a armed military force (you might be on par with other paramilitary groups.)  But if you want to take the offensive you have to pick your targets well... minimum risk for maximum benefit (read Mao) when you haven't picked the target run like hell.  Hit and run as you mentioned.

[Currahee]

Now what would be the procedure if contact was made from both left and right flanks at the same time?

This is an awesome sub-forum, great info for us lads that don't have the experience with these types of tactics. Keep it up!

A lot of variables in your question... what kind of contact are we talking?  Is the whole squad in the kill zone of an ambush or just the first team?  Are there more units behind?  Are there simple potshots coming from both sides, accurate sniper fire or are you enfiladed by several belt fed MGs?  What does the terrain favor?  Are you an infantry platoon with instructions to find and fix the enemy or are you a recon team miles from support?  Or, more likely for this forum, are you a family trying to get to your BO location?

I honestly hadn't thought of any of those different variables, I was just envisioning being pinned in the killzone taking direct fire from both flanks. The more pertinent scenario being a recon or scouting element of 4-8 members on patrol or "tactical" requisitioning objective away from main FOB/community.

Or same amount of members moving VIP's (children and family) and supplies to a secure location.

Or 2 members moving to/from a BOL.


Damn Currahee you bring some major depth and knowledge to this, thanks man! +1

The critical step in making contact with an enemy is the decision to fight or retreat.  If you can win on firepower and the risk is worth it you might want to fight, otherwise you need to withdraw.

If you are with a group moving around the woods with guns I hope you have had some practice bounding backwards (or forward) while one element covers another... this is what most scout/recon teams would do. This is certainly what a group with non combatants should do.

Eventually I will get up some ideas for group battle drills... but I want to do more on individual tactics and in the house type stuff first.

[Reaver]

Currahee is dead nuts.


I think the only hope we have is to master our weapons.

Hit & run would be ideal. Do not let them flank, do not let them move. Engage drop one or two or more if you can. Then beat feet quickly while they are still in the fire superiority phase. That gives you a window (Realistically) of about 10 seconds give or take.

[Currahee]

Currahee is dead nuts.


I think the only hope we have is to master our weapons.

Hit & run would be ideal. Do not let them flank, do not let them move. Engage drop one or two or more if you can. Then beat feet quickly while they are still in the fire superiority phase. That gives you a window (Realistically) of about 10 seconds give or take.

I'm sorry - but if you're gonna call me "nuts" you're gonna have to use more logic.  Especially since you basically repeated a couple of my points, albeit less coherently.

[APX808]

Hey Currahee, chill out bro...

"Dead nuts" = right on the money, exactly right, correct

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dead%20nuts

[Reaver]

Hey Currahee, chill out bro...

"Dead nuts" = right on the money, exactly right, correct

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dead%20nuts

Thanks for covering my six.

And currahee. I'm sorry my English isn't up to standard.

I edited your post, I am using the less judgemental purple colour.

thatGuy

[Colombo]

Hate to come back to subject but it is an interesting one...

Here is what it looks like from the rear

Maybe I'm not quite right in the head but the first things I thought of in that picture was "open field?" followed by "too close" and "muzzle follows eyes"

This is a great example of what I believe could be the setup of an occupying force, I'm calling them the NGCA (no good commie army). Orders or confidence of fire power and support can lead them right thru the middle of a field, down a path or road without  enough worry or time to take actual or serious movement countermeasures against ambush (guerrilla units can't afford and don't have this luxury, they have to expend the effort, time, and pain just to survive). Realistically I would be unlikely to consider an actual destroying ambush on a unit like that without at least matching or better firepower and considering likely enemy air / artillery support I wouldn't want to be in a guerrilla unit the size necessary. What I would consider is a very small 3-5 man unit with minimal weight, excellent field craft, accuracy and most important speed thru concealment and cover leaving minimum trail or sign. I'd also favor softer targets, support personnel, transport, specific infrastructure...    As far as direct action on enemy infantry,  far harassing ambush using terrain cover, concealment and speed of exit.  They don't have the immediate violence with destruction option and will  get low and have at least one of their belt feds making an existing racket on their end worse, If your quick your already leaving while their calling in support and beginning to maneuver on where your vacating (time-distance advantage to you). Never engage without at least two good exits, preferably more. Absolute dedication to gaining superior intel + situational awareness is what will keep you alive, until you cross the sight of an actual real scout or sniper then someone or maybe even all of you are going down (formation, spacing, concealment available...)  If you stumble unknowingly into the sights of a unit like the one in the pic I suspect you'd be lucky to get away from that kind of firepower and the support available to it. In close terrain with skill you can slip by a squad close enough to smell them then outdistance them if it's dense or difficult enough, this is your advantage and saving strength (up to date thermal and i.r. input here would be appreciated, you know who you are). A little bit of a head start and the proper skill in a favorable environment and you can outdistance and lose them or engage in other chain jerking of your choice. You pick the fight and if it isn't just right, make another one come along.


   I really don't expect this to happen though, the manpower and equipment requirements to take a land mass the size of this country are staggering not considering the massive arms buildup of the last 20 years by our civilian population.  I suspect more than a few of us would be amused by an attempted occupation of just a few major cities and their demanding populations. I don't like the idea of an even fight, let alone one on the disadvantaged side. Now in a societal breakdown rif-raf, looters, gangs or criminals are a different story, almost feel sorry for them... the small unit rule goes right out the window with dirtbags too.

[Reaver]

Let me use more common terms that maybe EVERYONE can understand.


Excellent Colombo  [URL=http://www.smileyvault.co



Man, can you imagine the clutter of small unit tactics against unorganized gangs. Complete and total destruction.

Is all that will happen to them.    Poor stupid gang members 

[Currahee]

I apologize for not having a better grasp of modern lingo.

As for your comments Colombo, this is the most basic of infantry tactics and what you would see most professional militaries using to move across open ground with (with variation of course.)  There are also things like Squad files and Squad lines, and if it's possible it would be backed up with armor, MICVs etc.  You describe the best way to deal with it.  Harassment from afar- but mechanical ambushes (boobie traps) should also be a big part of your toolbox, not just the far ambush and run.

Also consider the fact that the whole hide in the woods VC style things doesn't work nearly as well anymore - drones with FLIR and similar devices have added a new dimension to light infantry dismount tactics.

But you are right, I don't think there is an industrial army that could come close to making us fight it out with them on that level, not because we are so awesome, it's just that America is pretty darned big- and if we did have to fight a real army, it is more likely to be in cities, and we haven't touched on MOUT tactics yet (MOUT = city fighting, Military Operations in Urban Terrain)

I don't have a crystal ball and I don't know who the enemy could be, most likely a mugger in the street or a thug in my house, taking care of that is tactics that need to be discussed.  In a long term SHTF there will be a variety of bad guys and some indifferent guys.

As far as gangs, they cary across the country - I don't know enough about it, but I would suggest everyone read this
http://www.military.com/news/article/2011/fbi-says-gangs-infiltrating-the-us-military.html

It might be nice to think of them as unorganized thugs, and that is what they look like to be, but don't be to confident.

The thing to do is plan well and train hard- and always remember the tactical principles.

[Colombo]

Some tangential thoughts...

I don't think we give enough weight to the fact that no matter how well equipped we start out up to and including evenly matched against whatever may come. Just wear and attrition of the equipment will drag both sides down very quickly. To resupply an actual military force to control just California 158,000 square miles 38 million population (Iraq 168,000 square miles 33 million) is difficult and that would be without anyone shooting at or hijacking your transport and supplies in the other states.  I.R. and Thermal are immense force multipliers, no argument there but they would be in very short supply for anything beyond the very few actual chosen fronts (leaving unprotected any quislings elsewhere). Police helicopters and there imaging equipment is an absolute write off, I doubt they would last 1 month (no armor and no retaliation option for pissed off locals making pot shots).

I personally view cities as a wrol or even military occupation death trap and avoid them even under current conditions.
The suburbs aren't much better, I suspect you might find a slightly higher class of cannibal there wrol or peak of conflict.

Weeds, I've seen what my yard turns into in just 1 month.  Consider the density of growth in highway medians, along sidewalks or abandoned yards in suburbia hell (at least what the fires don't take out). A lot of short range brutal ambushes on the unaware (grazers and federal tit suckers).

Back to that picture.  Efficiency of force, even if I had the option of going full retard I think the better option would be to conserve supplies, outmaneuver and outlast the big spenders. Also man for man you can get  2 or 3 small covert units and 1-3 local individual spy/saboteurs all of whom can just cashe their equipment (evidence) and wait for the first string heat to go elsewhere and then bitch slap the poor remf bastards left behind...

I think local law enforcement will adapt quickly or be replaced by more local friendly replacements tying up any vichy fed coordination should that happen.

[Reaver]

This is beginning to become my favorite thread.

Both of you serve great points.

Booby traps, as we know cannot be discussed here.
( tittie sucking crybabies proved that, so unless we get approval from the landlord that's a no go )
As for muggers on the street and bad guys in the house. I don't think tactics like that can be effectively preached about.

Unless you start making video's on the subject or something of that matter, describing situations like muggings or breakins in text just isn't going to work.
 I mean try if you want but I think videos are the key here.

[thatGuy]

I don't recall what my previous stand on traps/mines was but I do recall that it cost us members who where very well connected/qualified.

We can talk all day about the best place to place, rig, set and use but lets keep it on the theoretical side and positively no discussion of how to make them will be allowed. We have got to watch our asses here gentlemen.

If anyone has any objection or comments about this feel free to hit me up with a PM.

[Reaver]

I don't recall what my previous stand on traps/mines was but I do recall that it cost us members who where very well connected/qualified.

We can talk all day about the best place to place, rig set and use but lets keep it on the theoretical side and positively no discussion of how to make them will be allowed. We have got to watch our asses here gentlemen.

If anyone has any objection or comments about this feel free to hit me up with a PM.

I can work with that.

Now, if I use " Rig set " and people don't know what it is, it is on them to do their own research and I have no control over that. Nor is this site connected to their own research correct?

[thatGuy]

My only concearn is what ends up on StraightPrep.com/forum, I would like to think that any independant reseach you do on your own would be on you.

Thanks for pointing out the missing comma!

[Reaver]

My only concearn is what ends up on StraightPrep.com/forum, I would like to think that any independant reseach you do on your own would be on you.

Thanks for pointing out the missing comma!

Roger that.

Expect some new material from me gents.  [URL=http://www.smileyvault.co