Just 'cause I love ya'll (but not in an unmanly way)

[Treaded]

The Point Blank Zero - Just for you guys (This might go on the blog later on) but for now it's unpublished elsewhere.  I'm a big advocate of the Point Blank Zero for irons ever since reading Plasters book years ago.  If you haven't read it get a copy and absorb it.  WTF is a point blank zero?  Simply put its zeroing your rifle for your given type of ammo so your point of aim/point of impact is within the line of sight and won't require an adjustment of your sights thereby decreasing the amount of time it takes you to get lead on target.  Don't get me wrong here - it is a tradeoff for tack driving accuracy.  BUT it will allow you to engage targets at what are considered normal combat ranges quicker than doing a six handed hindu dickdance with your sights.  And realistically how many of us have the eyesight and capability to pickup a man sized target in clutter out past 300 yards? 
What you need to know to implement this is the external ballistics of your round and a good 100 yard range.  What we do is zero our rifle at the given range with the elevation offset that can be looked up from a number of sources.  I think Nikon has a really good app on their website, and most of the ammo manufacturers have the tables available as well.  I'll give you an example below and some numbers for a few of the different rounds out there.

In this example I'm going to use an AR15 and some .223 55g FMJ.  I want POA/POI accuracy out to roughly 300 yards.  Knowing the external ballistics for that round I can pull the numbers and determine that the round is going to be at this trajectory at these given ranges:
100 Yards= +3.2"
150 Yards= +3.0"
200 Yards= +2.25"
250 Yards= Zero
300 yards = -3.9" 

So using our 100 yard range we zero our irons at 3.2" high.  That should give us 4" groups out to 300 yards.  That's more than acceptable for the platform.  And think about it:  We didn't have to adjust point of aim.  3.9" from centermass is still going to be a good hit.  For targets under 100 yards you probably want to drop to lower 1/3rd but for everything else out to 300 you should be GTG. 

For Rem 150g .308 and most M80 Nato FMJ I zero my irons 3.43" high at 100 yards using the following info:
100 Yards= +3.0"
150 Yards= +4.0"
200 Yards= +3.1"
250 Yards= 0.6"
300 yards = -3.7" 

Is this intended to replace the use of an optic or scope?  No.  It is intended to get you on the target with your irons and get a round downrange without having to do a lot of mental masturbation.  The hardest part should be determining if the target is within 300 Yards (200 for the x39).  For the AR is the target is wider than the stock front sight post it is within 300 meters (less it's further.  At half the width it is 600 meters).  A Metric FAL front sight post is typically one and one-half times the width of a man's chest at 300 yards.  For AKs what I've seen with the Romanians and stuff we've used overseas at 100 yards it is the width of the head and at 200 yards shoulder to shoulder - remember there's a ton of variances so YMMV.   

For the AK it's a little different.  Regular 25m zeroing will get you to within MoM out to about 300 meters.  I recommend zeroing at 25m and fine tuning at 100m.  Using PBZ for 7.62x39 123g FMJ a flat zero @ 100 yards will cover everything out to 200 with no adjustments:
100 Yards: Zero
150 Yards: -2.1"
200 Yards: -6.3" (we're getting on the edge here)
300 Yards= -12.4" - use a head form to offset. 

[RONSERESURPLUS]

GREAT STUFF, MANY THANKS!

RON L

[sledge]

Great post!  Thanks for bringing it up.  Now see.  Everything about the AK is simple.  NK was a genius. 

We love you back in a NO HOMO way.   

[thatGuy]

That is a tasty tidbit about the sight post on an AR there Treaded. Tasty indeed.

Thanks for posting. I may have to go re-work my zero and bring it in a little bit.

[Kentactic]

height of sights above bore will affect all of these numbers aswell as velocity of specific round which of course will also change with different barrel lengths.

I think a 200-300 yard zero is standard practice in the military if im not mistaken.

Also zeroing at 250 yards is far from line of sight zero. thats a decent drop from a lazer pointing out the end of your barrel.

also with my .308 zero'd at 100 yards a 300 yard shot without adjustments around 16'' drop so just hold on his head and anywhere from there to his chest is all good stuff to be hitting. but it still leaves the immediate ability for very precise shots at 100 yards if need be. im not about to try and shoot the gun out of a guys hand held to my buddies head at 500 yards but id surely do it without question at 100 yards and its nice to know im ready to do such a thing wihout any adjustment. of course this is a scoped setup so that obviously affects what were talking about in a different way no question.

Also you guys are killing me with this "minute of man" stuff... the termonology makes no sense... a man dosent get bigger the farther out he gets... Minute of angle does... its not a linear measure like a man is.

for example 1 moa has infinite answers of group size... minute of man can be very impressive or very terrible depending on the distance because a man size is a man size no matter the distance.

to put it simple, no gun shoots minute of man unless you say what distance your reffering to aswell.

[Treaded]

Ya know I used to get wrapped around the axles about MOA and chasing that extra .5 but I found out something.  Time is sensitive when you're in a gunfight.  All the fun time I've spent overseas taught me another thing - the guy who normally hits first wins.  I have yet to see anyone that got hit in the torso (ESAPIs included) not be out of the fight at least temporarily and that time costs you fire and maneuver. 
 
Target detection is a skill in and upon itself.  It takes trained eyes to pick up targets.  Have you ever gone out in the woods with one of those old Fudds that hunts religiously every year and can spot that damn turkey or deer in clutter a couple of hundred yards off even when it ain't moving?  That's a trained eye.  The human eye will naturally be drawn to movement but it takes getting out in the brush and actually learning the patterns of your AO to be able to pickup stuff that ain't supposed to be there especially when it ain't moving.  And when I state MoM I mean a torso sized target presented at full frontal aspect.  That cat in the prone is bad news for you especially if your moving. I had a sniper hit me with a rock at about 10 feet when I was taking a piss in the field one time - really I didn't see him at all.  So spotting a joe that just lays down in some brush or light cover?  Probably 25 meters if your lucky and he's being real still.  By then he's more than got ya.  You won't find a lot of folks that can do 4 MoA off the street but with some hands on it's not unrealistic.   

I would expect any decent semi to be capable of at least 3 MoA and an COTS bolt gun at 1.5.  I'll tell ya right now - avoid getting hung up on the "My rifle can do 1.5 MoA all day long" - it's a gay ass argument suited for arfcom.  Riflewise?  Not as important as the shooter and his known ability to get lead on target using his rifle and ammo combo in a timely fashion.  Remember the marksmanship triad - shooter, rifle, ammo in that order. 

Ken, think about this.  That M193 with the sights on an AR15A2 20" zeroed at 3.2" high at 100 yards is going to cross it's ballistic plane on the far end at 250 yards.  So if you aim center mass at a target within 300 yards you're going to hit it.  But you have to run the numbers based on your rifle and round combo.  The numbers I put up were for 3 common rifles - an AR15A2 with 20" barrel using M193, A Metric FAL (my personal fav) with a 21" barrel using M80, and a standard run of the mill Romy AK with a 16" barrel running Wolf.  Whatever your running YMMV. 

BTW - I did screw up my numbers for the FAL.  100 Yards should be 3.43".  I was looking at the wrong round column on my pad. 

[Kentactic]

As far as the whole minute of man thing goes i just felt the need to point out that when a guy says his rifle shoots minute of man hes bassically only saying his gun does fire bullets out the barrel and has given no further info beyond that... i dont know if him/his rifle shoots sub 1 MOA or 30 MOA...the term is worthless and should be done away with. The term was invented by some one who clearly dosent even understand what an angular measure is. Im not saying thats you Treaded but lets not keep rolling over poor terms that only take people a step backwards in understanding how things work.

Also i agree the style of zeroing your explaining is the best way to go on a short range rifle no question. I didnt mean to crap all over your thread but i felt the need to point out that the numbers above is very specific info that mostly wont carry over to everyones indivdual setups like you said in your second post. just trying to avoid guys copying this to their own setup and considering the numbers fact. 2 guns with the same Barrel length both shooting 55gr ammo wont be the same unless its the same exact 55gr loads being zero'd on the same exact sight above bore heights with the same barrel lengths and to get really down to the nitty gritty the same recoil managment between shooters.

Long story short im just watching out for the newbs.

[Treaded]

I kind of agree on Minute of Man - I don't know when that phrase was coined (I remember hearing it in the 80s) but I've generally used it as being able to hit a man sized target within your effective range.  That MoA gayness drives me nuts though. 

[Treaded]

Walker - when I first started using the technique I was very conscious of it when training.  But like anything else you get to where you can really pick up on it after practice and it comes a bit more naturally.  Now even if it's close to or a little past 300 and I'm not in cover I'll still go center and get that round off NOW.  What it does is force the target to react - you've gotten inside his OODA (Observe/Orient/Decide/Act) loop.  That in itself is valuable but I've found that more often than not I would get hits.   It gives you some time to do things like get to cover or actually apply precision fire on the target while it's reacting.  Like I stated above more often than not I've seen first guy that gets a hit wins.  A few years ago I remember some Marine had a .pdf file circulating for the M16A2 that had little scaled torsos on it for different ranges and they were numbered.  IIRC he used it from about 10" away and called numbers out while his troops had to line up and call range to target.  Might be something for one of you math wizzes to come up with?

Here's your formula explained way better than I can. http://varifleman.wordpress.com/2011/01/22/rifleman-basics-sight-width-and-battle-sight-zero/