Heat

[JohnyMac]

Yesterday, MrsMac and I returned to the cabin after being back in suburbia to do some pre-winter chores and visit doctors. Upon walking into the cabin the temp was a nice brisk 61F. So I opened up as many windows as I dare to allow some of the 68F outside temps in.

We were invited to our neighbors house to have dinner and wood stove baked apple pie. Upon returned after dinner the cabin had climbed to 63F.

MrsMac thought it was time for a fire in our Jotul F-500 Oslo wood stove. Within 30 minutes the great room's (family room for you Obama voters) temp was 71F. Before we went to bed,  threw one more log in the stove, dampened it down and went to bed.

This morning when we got out of bed the temp through-out the cabin was 72F while in the high 40's outside.

With the first fire of the warming season my thoughts turned to the forum members. Specifically, what your primary heat source is and what the back-up plan is. PLUS, what are you doing to prepare...

Our story:
While at the cabin we have two heat sources. The a for mentioned wood stove and a "milking shed" electric heater. We fire up the 5000W electric heater in the bathroom before we take a shower or turn it on in the great room on cool summer morning's, to just take the chill off.

We use one cord of wood a month during the winter months. Typically I cut, split and stack half our winter needs from trees I fell in the spring. The other half comes from "my wood guy." Great guy as he will cut my wood 20-22" in length (Most guys will not  as most wood stoves take 16-18" logs) and the price at $120- a cord is just right.

In the months of Sept and Oct, we will use on the average of 0-3 logs a night or approximately 1/4 cord of wood. By the beginning of November we will be using 5-10 logs a day which will increase to 15-18 logs a day from Thanksgiving through March.

We have experienced 10 to -10F for weeks at a time in January & February but the norm is 0 to 20F depending on cloud cover. More cloud cover the warmer the day is. No cloud cover Burrrrr! Pretty dang cold.

In the suburbia house located in RI. our primary heat source is natural gas. When we are home we keep the furnaces thermostat at 62F and primarily heat the house using our Jotul CB-3 wood stove. When we lived there full time we use to go through 2 cords of wood a season. As you can see, we augmented the wood stove with the gas furnace. I would guess it was 60/40 gas to wood. MrsMac wasn't into running the wood stove when I wasn't around. At the cabin though that isn't the case. She loads that F-500 like pro. 

Where we are located in RI, on the water, the temps stay in the 18 to 32F range Dec through Feb. - With an occasional dip down to the high single digits. A couple miles inland that isn't the case though. Same with precipitation - More rain than snow.   

So there you go...Share with the forum what you are doing this year.

[thatGuy]

I'm still running electric heat in the house but have a cheap 'vogel' cast iron stove in the barn and couple hundred 'two by fours' that could get burned up if need be... I've got to get my shit together..

[Nemo]

Move south.  I am still running a/c and will be for another month easy.  As far as you being too cold--   

Nemo

[brat]

Primary heat is Buck Stove 81 and back up is lp heaters, one 18,000 and one 30,000 btu. I have 6 1/2 cords stacked and about 3 in rounds. My wood is free, but it's also mixed of whatever the guy cuts in his business. It all makes heat.... and ashes. If I have to have oak/hickory, trip to the father out law's or friend of neighbor. I try to avoid all that as it requires more work. 

http://www.buckstove.com/model-81.html#.VBjnZ1eJqTE

[JohnyMac]

Right on brat! That stove looks GREAT! I like the long width which will handle up to 20" logs. Not a big fan of the electric blower though. With that written I am sure she will put enough heat if you loose electric. 

0630 this morning...39'F outside - 63'F inside Burrrr. Lite a small three log fire. 0810, as I type a nice 72'F inside. 

I have put it off long enough...Back to splitting and stacking wood. 

[JohnyMac]

Tomorrow is chimney sweeping and wood stove clean-out day. I hate this task but am too cheap to "sub" it out to a professional.  I will save $130- though 

When was the last time YOU had your chimney swept?

A couple of weeks ago I installed 120 volt, smoke and 02 alarms. When was the last time you switched out your batteries? Do you even have smoke and 02 alarms up?  If not think about it.

[brat]

Chimney sweep was here two months ago, I get them in the summer when they ain't busy. Cost is $75 and they clean the stove while they're in. They also camera inspect and sign off on my warranty cards which requires a certified sweep inspection. Otherwise...... I'd still call them, cause although I'm cheap, I'm way more lazy on some tasks and would rather be spending my time doing some other odious task. Plus, it's worth the money to get the wife off my ass about soot.

As far as the smoke and stuff, I have an alarm system that monitors smoke, heat and CO in three locations, monitors the entries, windows, motion thingamagigs and perimeter stuff. The system has battery back up for 72 hours and I have a battery for the battery and an extra battery. 

Looking to add some IR flood lights the perimeter as well, but that's for another day uh night or whenever I can get around tuit.

[JohnyMac]

  brat!

Here is the last of the ash tree that got blown down in the aftermath of Hurricane Irene in August 2011. If you remember she hit NC then went back out to sea and then hit landfall again in mid NJ. Then she went up the Hudson Valley.

I let the tree age since then and got her out with the help of a friend last month. Got almost 2 cords of wood out of her. Man O' man ash burns hot and long.

[brat]

Yeah Jmac     I like Ash, especially White Ash, when I get it. Easy splitter. My old 1820's home has some Ash floors in a couple of rooms. Makes a good bat too.

The majority of my wood is hackberry, osage orange and locust. I also have some oak, hickory and walnut. Good thing about splitting your own wood, you can stack in your mix. Don't want to burn too much osage at one time.

I save the bulk of my fruit and nut tree wood for smoking shoulders. Partial to apple, cherry and persimmon. I like pecan and scaly bark hickory from nut bearing trees. Just depends on the meat and how much smoke flavor you're wanting. Mouth's watering, gotta go fire up the Weber, a lot ballgames tonight.

[CJS06]

Johnny

Just going into my first winter at the new place near your RI residence I a have only recently started to plan for/use a secondary heat source. My previous home was in the "city" and had no fireplace or stove.  I currently have a fireplace that I will be using and am looking into installing a stove. At this point I only have a little over a cord of seasoned wood. I was just offered another pick up load of wood to cut/split by a friend. I have my weekend all planned :-).

I am way behind the curve right now, but I can guarantee that a cold winter of paying for oil will accelerate things 

[JohnyMac]

Free wood is the best 

Wood around you and I in RI is going for about $250- a cord. Jim Roies was who I bought all of my wood from. He always gave me a good count of quality wood - Mostly oak and cherry.

Another buddy who lives in Warren buys his wood in the spring & summer in log lengths (8-10' lengths). Then he cuts, splits and stacks his green wood through-out the summer. It is ready by November. He pays about $100- a cord doing it this way.

CJS, I would interested in what wood stove insert you are looking at for your fireplace. If space allows in front of your fireplace, think about going this route.

The reason being that a fireplace insert requires an electric motor to drive the heat out from the stove to work efficiently. If you can't go with a free standing stove, no worries just have a back-up electric source then you are golden.

Oh, down Seapowet road there is a farm that sells wood (Don't know if they do anymore) and their price was about $50-$75 cheaper than most wood providers.

Have fun! 
 

[KillJoy]

As it stands now, we are 100% dependant on our oil furnace. Living in north east New Englad, this has put a massive dent in the wallet. Not to mention last winter we almost didn't receive our delivery twice due to the company running out of oil. It was a very long and cold winter. Having the tank gauge showing below empty and your oil company telling you over the phone that you'll be fine for another 7 days, doesn't leave you with warm fuzzies.

I've been researching the install process for a cast iron wood stove. My interest lays in supplementing oil heat to cut cost, and to have secondary long term backup when power goes down for extended periods. Which in my neck of the woods happens quite frequently. It seems to be a project that will be quite costly though. Debating whether it would be more cost effective to spend the money on the aluminum insulated piping or have a dedicated brick and mortar chimney built and feed the wood stove exhaust into that. I would be looking to heat 2,000 sq feet to a comfortable level if need be. Any advice from you knowledgeable folks would be of great assistance. I'm looking on having this done for next season.

I feel ridiculous for overlooking this very important prep for my region. And now I'm scrambling.

[brat]

My opinion KJ is invest in a quality stainless steel insulated flexible one piece liner. No gases or combustible embers can escape. Insulation reduces creosote build up from cooling. Insulation is cheaper than double/triple walled piping. You'll get the right size for your stove to draft properly. They are easy to maintain and last many many years. The temps going up the chimney are extreme and a good liner will not burn thru in a chimney fire. But if you maintain properly and burn seasoned wood, you'll probably never have one anyway. Easy to have inspected to catch problems early. If you're inclined, you can buy a really good kit and install yourself with help from a buddy. Or you can have it done and the work warranted. Most all good one piece flex liners carry long warranties when maintained. Prices will vary as well as quality of material. Best Flex, Forever Flex, Dura Plus are just a few. Best Flex is made up in your neck of the woods, VT, and is what I have.

As far as stoves/inserts, if possible, extend your hearth and get a stove that can partially set back into the existing chimney instead of an insert. I looked at both and chose the stove over the insert. Best would be a stove that vents from the back if you're gonna use an existing chimney. The further you can get out into the room, the more heat you'll claim in your room/home. The absolute best for getting all the heat is free standing IMHO.

My home was built in the 1820's, so we wanted a stove that looked old, but was modern/efficient. Another reason we didn't opt for the insert. We have it set partially in one of the old cut stone chimneys. It's a trade off in that we lose some heat from the back side of the stove, but it heats up the stone chimney and stone hearth and we get radiant heat from that back into the room. The modern steel stoves that have an air insulated fire box are not real good for cooking on, but can be done, just not as well as cast iron. The air channel is for the blower. Like mentioned, you need a 120 receptacle nearby. I have a generator and bypass so I don't worry about losing electric, but it'd be a different in WROL/SHTF. It still heats without the blower, just not so I have to crack the window.

Be sure to check the cast iron units for leaks as they are usually bolted and/or cemented in many places. Be sure to burn/season it outside prior to installation as the coating will stink up your house. Buy some hi temp black paint to recoat it after your season is over, they'll get whiteish. Also get some firebrick and heavy grate, it'll help. Some people say they leak out smoke from the cook top and other places like the door, but I suspect that's due to improper setting on their damper, lack of draft and not knowing to open their damper prior to opening the door to stoke on those units. I don't know much about the soapstone stoves as they were usually more than we wanted to spend, but they make some really nice old looking unit that are efficient.

Get the best you can now and you'll not be sorry. I'd say don't skimp on the quality of the liner at all. Put your money there first. If you get a stove you end up not happy with after a season or two, you can always trade up later and put the old one in your shop. 

From the pic... I don't have to tell you where the cat's favorite place is in the winter...lol

[KillJoy]

Brat, thank you very much for taking the time to write all that up. It is very helpful information. I have decided that this project has been placed very high on our priority list, pending working out the funding. I've gone to craigslist and have found a bunch of stoves for sale. Hard for me being unknowledgable sifting through what is good and what is not. I have decided on cast iron, and want the ability to cook on top of it.

Would this be considered a good price for a stove and chimney package?   https://nh.craigslist.org/for/4679488065.html

According to the manufactures website this particular stove produces 35,000 btus and has a heating capacity of 1,400 sq feet. In regards to heating capacity, how exactly is "heating capacity" measured? What temperature are we talking about in and outside that 1,400 sq feet? Will I still get usable residual heat outside of that stated square footage? Say I'm keeping it at max temperature around the vicinity and within the operating square footage. Will I be able to maintain comfortable 65-70 degree temps on the other end of the house? (Open concept house with minimal wall interference)

[brat]

KJ it looks like a good stove, but read it is "catalytic". It will require more maintenance to remain safe and efficient. I opted not to get catalytic when I bought my stove four years ago. The catalytic converter has to be cleaned every so often by taking them out and soaking and scrubbing, refer to manual. Gaskets around the bypass wear out and have to be replaced. Most newer non-cat stoves have stainless tubes across the top of the firebox which reburn smoke/gases and are easier to maintain in my opinion.

If you're not going to deal with a certified sweep, you'll need to look at it good and make sure it hasn't been overheated/overfired inside like, check for cracks in the firebrick, cracks in the catalytic manifold, check the gasket around the cat, the bypass, discolored paint and any warping and cracks in welds/cement. Check the door gasket as well. As for the pipe, it looks like single wall stuff that goes to a collar/thimble thru the wall. It looks like they didn't buy an adapter for connecting the stove or thimble and opted to squeeze the pipe with pliers in one picture. I'm not sure I'd use that part. In checking the rest of the single wall pipe, if you can squeeze the pipe and it crushes in some, that means that creosote has eaten away some of the metal and it'll have to be replaced. Judging just from the "sweep log" and "cleaner tubs" in one pic, I'd be thinking/concerned that they maybe didn't do "good" maintenance as some folks think that stuff does as good a job as having the stove and flue swept properly.

The outside stuff looks like stainless two/three wall and you have to check the seams and inside for build up. Also, you have to be four or five feet above the roof line for proper draft, so keep that in mind. You may have to buy more pipe depending on where you poke a hole in your outside wall. If the exterior wall has an outlet, check for lines running to the plug. Usually they're in a loop from plug to plug at close to the same height as the receptacle box, but if the plug is the is the start of a new load on the breaker, it could come from a roof run, unless you know the ran everything in the basement/crawl space. I have several runs thru the attic and the lines come down the wall.

As far as heat in the other end of the house, that's hard to say cause it depends on how much insulation you have in the wall, how good your windows/doors are and draft. You could move some heat with ceiling fans or those little corner fans. If I had to guess, which is exactly what I'm doing, you'll still need some help in those areas. I believe your sqft is right at the upper end of that stove's rating.

Stove's are great when they're set up right, but they're a pain in the ass when they ain't. I think it's different heating a house vs heating a cabin, but that just MHO.

I am not a certified installer nor certified sweep. What I've told you is just what I've learned thru the years and during my shopping for stoves. We are planning to add another stove next month because we have trouble getting heat to the kitchen area, but we don't have an "open" area. Last year was unusually cold for this area and we had to fire up our back up lp heaters for several weeks. Figure it'll be just as easy to get another stove since we have four fireplaces to run off of.

Good luck. If you want to pm me a digit, I'll call and answer whatever I know. If you know or can get a referral for a good sweep in your area, that's exactly what I'd do, first.

[JohnyMac]

All good stuff.

A few things:

> Buy one stove larger then what you think you will need or what the manufacture recommends for your houses
   sf.
> In both of the houses we have a wood stove, we also have a ceiling fan that rotates all winter at low speed
   counter clockwise. This seems to help warm the whole house not just the room the wood stove is in. We have
   also ran the fan off our marine batteries/inverter kept charged using a solar panel. So the fan will work in a
   power outage.
> It is recommend that you do not use 100% double walled chimney in the house. To aide in draft a
    section that is exiting the wood stove should be single wall chimney that leads to the double wall ss pipe.

I know that this is an expensive project; However, you will pat yourself on the back when the snow blows sidewise this winter.
     

[JohnyMac]

I was going to clean our chimney last week but only got to it yesterday. Boy O' boy I hate that job at the cabin vs. the house in RI. 45 degree roof slope vs. 15 - 20 degrees in RI.

At the cabin I have to disassemble the 12' single wall chimney into two parts that leads up to the double wall chimney that goes through the roof. Take that outside and sweep it.

Once that is done I then have to attack the remaining double wall chimney that goes through the roof another 11 or 12' from the bottom. I run the brush handles through a paper bag and then attache said bag to the bottom of the dbl walled pipe and then brush away. The bag catches most of the creosote but a little always escapes.

Once done, reassemble all of the pipe, use furnace cement on a few seems, clean out & vacuum the wood stove itself and then vacuum up what ash or creosote got away from me. A dirty and time consuming amount of time.

The rewards though are:
> I know that my main heat source at the cabin will not have a chimney failure,
> The inspection of all components, and
> That ice cold Yuengling beer at the end of a job well done. 

Oh and MrsMac told me at dinner that she picked up a "new series of less than civilized swearing rants". 

Well that's done till next fall! 
   

[KillJoy]

So I have been given a free stove and chimney. It would appear, and through a quick Google search that it is an early model Fisher. I believe it to be the Mama Bear model, but I could be incorrect. Overall it appears to be in fine condition, just needing some tender refurbishing. Can any of you seasoned wood stove veterans give me some further insight on this stove? I read somewhere about this stove not being EPA certified because of something to do with it's high level of emissions.

Pictures attached.

Edit: the stove is still installed in the individuals garage. Need to coordinate moving that heavy sumnabitch.

[JohnyMac]

Sorry KillJoy I am not familiar with the make of your new stove. It looks pretty sturdy though. Inside the stove is there fire brick or just cast iron? Asking because I am just curious.

The best way to move those heavy suckers is a four wheel furniture dollies. Plus a towing strap may come in handy too.

When we moved our 400+ pound F500 Jotel in we used the dolly and used the strap to position it correctly.

We positioned the strap under the stove. Then my brother took one end of the strap and I took the other end and placed across our shoulders. We then together picked up the stove by keeping our backs straight and lifting with our legs.

Concerning the chimney: You may want to clean it BEFORE you take it apart and move it. So you will need a 6" chimney brush and rods to do that. Depending on how much extra cash you have, you may just want to replace the single wall pipe with new. The pipe isn't expensive. Now the double wall chimney pipe is pricy but you absolutely need it going through your ceiling. If my memory is accurate the double wall pipe has to extent a min. of 2' down from your ceiling. Mine is about 3 feet.

Also keep in mind that the chimney needs to extend about 2' above your roof line otherwise you will get down drafts.

I hope some of those suggestions will help ya'.     

[Nemo]

I believe that high level of emissions that the EPA is worried about is frequently known as smoke.  Here is South Georgia anyway.  Most wood stoves put out some of that or alot of it.  Kind of like a campfire in a box.  Make sure your chimney is clear and the stove door is closed so the smoke goes up the chimney and outside.  Pay attention to joints in the pipe and such and you should be good.

Nemo

[JohnyMac]

Nemo brings up a good point - Buy some wood stove chimney cement.

Unfortunately, I have to take apart my stove chimney up at the cabin to clean. I break it down into two lengths. At 58, I just am not going on top of the roof to clean. 

When I reinstall it, I always use a little chimney cement around the seams where the pipe joins each section. When I light my first fire of the season and the pipe is hot, I light a wood match around each seam to make sure the seam is sealed. Basically, if the seam isn't tight the draft from the stove going up the chimney will cause the flame on the match to go into the leak in the seam.

Do you have smoke and carbon dioxide alarms? If you don't and you don't want to take the time and expense to hard wire them into your electrical system at least get the battery operated ones. Code in my neck of the woods is:

> 1 smoke alarm in each bedroom
> Smoke alarm in 1st floor hallway
> 1 CO2 alarm in 1st floor hallway

Not code in my neck of the woods but I added since our Jotel is the only heat source during the winter:

> Another smoke and CO2 alarm in the hallway of the second floor
> 1 smoke alarm in the cellar/basement.

I hardwired the alarms into the electrical box. Plus the alarms have battery back-up in case of electrical outage. All told the expense for the alarms was $100- plus the 14/3 wire needed for the wiring. Well worth it for piece of mind.

Also check your local town code for a wood stove. In RI, I had to get a building permit for the installation of the wood stove. Then the fire department had to inspect the installation in order for our house insurance to cover the house for fire. As a follow-up, my wood stove in RI has to be cleaned by a certified chimney sweep every two years and a copy of the cleaning and inspection has to be sent into the insurance company. Cost every two years is about $135-. Actually, I do this every year. Piece of mind is worth the small cost.

Up at the cabin, there is none of this nonsense needed. With that said, I clean and inspect my chimney every year myself.

At both my house in RI and up at the cabin, we have several fire extinguishers. Small 2 1/2 # ones in each bedroom and a 4# one in the room the wood stoves are in. This maybe a bit over kill but....I have never needed the fire extinguishers because of a wood stove fire I have actually used them for other events like brush fires, car fires, etc. 

[graynomad]

We installed this a few weeks ago



Even though it's getting into summer now we still light it every night and cook on/in it most nights as well. Best 2000 bucks I've spent in a long time.

We did a fuel-reduction burn a couple of weeks ago and a large live tree fell, I diced it up while green and probably got enough wood for all next winter.


Some of the rounds from the tree. Two of the large ones are earmarked for anvil stumps in my smithy

We also have a diesel heater in the truck but truth is where I live you hardly need heating, it's certainly nice to have but the weather is never life-threatening. We've never even had a frost AFAIK.

[JohnyMac]

Thought I would add a picture of our wood stacked for this season to this thread. Four cords on the porch and under the porch combined. Another cord and a half in our wood shed. All of the wood you see is a combo of ash, oak and cherry. 

I have another cord of birch cut in 10 foot lengths that I haven't touched yet. Plus I have three cherry trees that I want to cut down and then into 10 foot lengths close to the cabin. Just waiting for some of the tree sap to leave the tree trunk and go into the roots. This will happen as it gets colder - Probably January.

 

[Hondokov]

Nice cabin!

[JohnyMac]

Thx Hondokov! My brother and I built it from one of those kits. After several years of research we settled on Coventry Log Homes from New Hampshire. We are 100% satisfied by the product and the support.