Author Topic: Flash hider  (Read 1093 times)

Offline JoJo

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Flash hider
« on: April 03, 2017, 09:37:28 PM »
 A couple of questions on flash hiders/muzzle brakes.

 What is the difference between the two if there is a difference?
 The A2 flash hider seems to be standard equipment on factory guns then why would someone spend between $40 to $80 on a replacement?
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Offline Jackalope

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Re: Flash hider
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2017, 10:26:05 PM »
Typically a flash hider does exactly that, it hides the flash from the firing of a projectile.  If you've ever fired a rifle or shotgun at night, you'll see a fairly large flash discharge from the barrel.  The flash hider significantly diminishes the flash, though it doesn't entirely eliminate it.

The purpose of a muzzle brake is to lessen the recoil of the firearm.  It does this by redirecting the muzzle blast..  It is especially effective when used with larger calibers like the .50.

Both flash hiders and muzzle brakes redirect muzzle blast, though in different ways, and as noted above, for different purposes.  I have a muzzle brake on one of my shotguns, and it does an effective job of reducing the recoil.  An interesting experiment is to take a firearm like the AR-15 out at night, and fire it with and without the flash suppressor, and note the differences. 


Offline JoJo

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Re: Flash hider
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2017, 08:44:21 AM »
 Thanks for the quick reply. Is one type of muzzle brake more effective than another and same for flash hider?
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Offline JohnyMac

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Re: Flash hider
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2017, 09:39:23 AM »
for what weapon system and caliber?
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Offline CJS06

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Re: Flash hider
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2017, 09:52:56 AM »
Thanks for the quick reply. Is one type of muzzle brake more effective than another and same for flash hider?

JoJo

The answer is yes for both the Flash Hider and Muzzle Brake. Jackalope did a great jog of describing the difference between the two.  Even within the same category there are differences.  For flash hiders there are A2s, Three prongs, linears, etc.  These all vary from manufacturer to manufacturer.  With comps/brakes there are single port, dual port, linear, and combi(brake and flash hider),etc. Again these differ from manufacturer to manufacturer.  Each manufacturer has their individual claims.  Most of these differences have been compared, charted, beaten to death.  Your best bet is to do a google search on "best flash hider" or best muzzle brake". Also go on M4Carbine.net or Lightfighter and do a search on their forums.....definitely been gone over at length many times.

Each has a purpose you need to decide what works best for you.  I personally have Surefire MB556K or MB762k(brakes) on most of my ARs and have recently gotten my hands on a Surefire Warcomp (Combi). I have these because a like the shooting characteristics and I have access to use Surefire cans that require one of their muzzle devices to mount.

In many low light/night courses I have seen that the 3 prong flash hiders seem to do a better job than the A2 birdcage. BE Meyers 249 and Surefire SF3P seem to be the best but is also not cheap. 

For Comps/Brakes I have found the SF to be great and one of the more widely used by very active shooters. The Battlecomp also seems to do a great job(while also having a slightly smaller flash than most brakes). My SF MB556 is terrible at night (unless iI'musing a can which is the ultimate flash hider) producing large fireballs. The Warcomp is relatively new to me but in limited experience so far seems to dramatically cut down on this.

As with anything there is a stupid amount of opinion out there masking itself as information. If reading opinions l like to disregard the very best and very worst and focus on the meat of what is there. Be careful of manufacturers statements as their product is always the "game changer" and "ultimate" solution.

What I use works for me and I have gone through a bunch until I found what I settled on, and is my opinion...take it for what its worth.  This info relates to 5.56 and .308, mainly AR patterned rifles but hols true for most in these chamberings. Bolt guns, AKs, etc vary widely.

I hope this is helpful and makes sense.

Chris
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 09:55:15 AM by CJS06 »

Offline CJS06

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Re: Flash hider
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2017, 10:08:56 AM »
JoJo

I should have also noted that Brakes can fall into 2 categories.  Some are just for recoil reduction and some are also to help in eliminating muzzle rise.  The second fall into the category of Comps (compensators).  Some brakes  also act as comps, and some comps act as brakes.  An example is the Battlecomp......this is a comp that has brake(recoil reduction) characteristics.  The Warcomp I mentioned is technically a Comp/Flash hider combo.

The reason I like my SF brakes is their compensating characteristics more than their recoil mitigation. Hell there is almost no recoil on an AR anyway.

Sorry just figure I would try to get as confusing as possible. ;)

Chris

Offline Erick

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Re: Flash hider
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2017, 05:04:06 PM »
Good explanations above but I'll add my 2 cents as I surmise you are trying to build a Tactical Rifle not a competition rifle.

I have used muzzle brakes and compensators before..
And they work great

BUT in my mind its mostly something for competitions where reduction of recoil is all important.

The AR is not a very high rising or recoiling weapons system however..

At night the huuuge muzzle flash from a gun with  a muzzle-brake instead of a flashhider will both blind you and give away your position much more readily than the flash from a flash hidden barrel.

Even during day time the  blasts of powder to your side that may shake vegetation and the much louder report will make it harder to stay unlocated.
Not being located right away is a huge part of the struggle for fire superiority .

All my rifles that I deem "Tactical" have a flash hider only.
All branches of the US military use flash hiders on their rifles/carbines.. :dance:
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 05:06:51 PM by Erick »
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Offline JoJo

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Re: Flash hider
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2017, 06:03:48 PM »
 Your right Eric the rifle will be for home defense both inside and outside of the house. I feel that our small group of homes in farm country could only be attacked at night. To much wide open spaces to sneak up on us.
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Offline CJS06

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Re: Flash hider
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2017, 03:29:49 PM »
All branches of the US military use flash hiders on their rifles/carbines.. :dance:

A number of units that use specific suppressors that require muzzle devices to mount run brakes, but these are very small numbers and very specialized.  That is one of the key reasons behind development of the Warcomp by SF for use with the SOCOCM family of cans.

If I didnt have access to SF cans I would most likely not come close to using an MB556 brake.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 03:32:34 PM by CJS06 »

Offline Erick

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Re: Flash hider
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2017, 04:46:53 PM »
All branches of the US military use flash hiders on their rifles/carbines.. :dance:

A number of units that use specific suppressors that require muzzle devices to mount run brakes, but these are very small numbers and very specialized.  That is one of the key reasons behind development of the Warcomp by SF for use with the SOCOCM family of cans.

If I didnt have access to SF cans I would most likely not come close to using an MB556 brake.

I knew someone would bring this up..but it doesnt help the OP.

Yes, no matter what is is someone in the .mil has it in their supply room.

As MAG/Prepper/Survivalist guys our primary compass needs to be what Light Infantry runs on their Carbines/Rifles.
Especially Pre GWOT Light Infantry.

100% of all those rifles run flashhiders.
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Offline CJS06

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Re: Flash hider
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2017, 05:59:11 PM »
Erick

I do agree that this gets away from the OPs original question a bit, but still fits though loosely under the same subject. I understand what you are saying and agree to some extent but disagree as well.  As prepper/survivalist does not need to focus on what a light infantry unit has for equipment....for a couple of reasons.  A light infantry unit has significant items that the avg prepper has no access to that are integral to its composition. Some major items a prepper has no access to would be the beltfeds or grenade launchers, comms, etc. These are all integral to a light Inf. unit.  If anything I feel that the prepper should be thinking more akin to unconventional units.  This is because of the small, varied groups or even need for individual action. Im not talking about Delta or Devgru.

I do honestly feel that if you are able to own a suppressor it is an important piece of kit that should be considered seriously. It has significant advantages. As you pointed out the flash hider mitigates muzzle blast in low/ no light.  The can does this to a level that no flash hider can achieve, while also giving a huge reduction in sound signature. In addition to the ability to make identifying location through the sound (just lie flash), having a can allows for much better communication among a small unit/group. Preppers are not likely to have comms through Sordins and therefore are likely to either suffer hearing damage by operating without or stuck with hearing pro that destroys their ability to communicate and or hear the environment properly.    They are not inexpensive but can be worth their weight in gold. The Army and Corps are both looking at issuing cans to line units....though like initially to just small specific units (not Special Ops, they already have them).

Even if we were looking at just light inf. issued kit when do we draw the line on how far back.  Not long ago, just prior to GWOT,  light infantry units did not get issued optics. It was live or die with irons. We all agree RDS are a good thing and worth it for a prepper/survivalist.  Also not long a go a light inf platoon would have 1 sets of NODs per fire team...not every man. Today every man will have them when in the field in night time operations. Again not mandatory but if you have the resources NODs are something a prepper/survivalist should consider a set (they dont need to be white phosphor PVS15s).

All of my "tactical" rifles have brakes (other than the 1 Warcomp). This is specifically so I can mount up the Surefire Cans I have access to. As I mentioned if I didnt want to mount those specific cans I would never have those muzzle devices.

Chris

Sorry now we are definitely way off the OPs original question.

Offline JoJo

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Re: Flash hider
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2017, 06:37:02 PM »
@CJSO6 and Eric. You may be off a little but answered questions that I would have ask. I would love to have a can and night vision sights but state law on the can says no and lack of funds for night vision.
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Offline Erick

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Re: Flash hider
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2017, 07:15:14 PM »
Erick

I do agree that this gets away from the OPs original question a bit, but still fits though loosely under the same subject. I understand what you are saying and agree to some extent but disagree as well.  As prepper/survivalist does not need to focus on what a light infantry unit has for equipment....for a couple of reasons.  A light infantry unit has significant items that the avg prepper has no access to that are integral to its composition. Some major items a prepper has no access to would be the beltfeds or grenade launchers, comms, etc. These are all integral to a light Inf. unit.  If anything I feel that the prepper should be thinking more akin to unconventional units.  This is because of the small, varied groups or even need for individual action. Im not talking about Delta or Devgru.

I do honestly feel that if you are able to own a suppressor it is an important piece of kit that should be considered seriously. It has significant advantages. As you pointed out the flash hider mitigates muzzle blast in low/ no light.  The can does this to a level that no flash hider can achieve, while also giving a huge reduction in sound signature. In addition to the ability to make identifying location through the sound (just lie flash), having a can allows for much better communication among a small unit/group. Preppers are not likely to have comms through Sordins and therefore are likely to either suffer hearing damage by operating without or stuck with hearing pro that destroys their ability to communicate and or hear the environment properly.    They are not inexpensive but can be worth their weight in gold. The Army and Corps are both looking at issuing cans to line units....though like initially to just small specific units (not Special Ops, they already have them).

Even if we were looking at just light inf. issued kit when do we draw the line on how far back.  Not long ago, just prior to GWOT,  light infantry units did not get issued optics. It was live or die with irons. We all agree RDS are a good thing and worth it for a prepper/survivalist.  Also not long a go a light inf platoon would have 1 sets of NODs per fire team...not every man. Today every man will have them when in the field in night time operations. Again not mandatory but if you have the resources NODs are something a prepper/survivalist should consider a set (they dont need to be white phosphor PVS15s).

All of my "tactical" rifles have brakes (other than the 1 Warcomp). This is specifically so I can mount up the Surefire Cans I have access to. As I mentioned if I didnt want to mount those specific cans I would never have those muzzle devices.

Chris

Sorry now we are definitely way off the OPs original question.

Chris,

I dont disagree w/ what you are saying.. I used the Light Infantry as an example to come from the other side of the argument and you are making a point I often make when folks want to follow the .mil too much.
So many folks want to follow what the US military does and for many reason ( as u listed) that is a flawed approach as our operational environment and Operational Concept are different.

However if one is to use a configuration from the US military as  a starting point then one should look to the pre GWOT Light Infantry as it is the closest to a preppers Operational Concept ( though clearly not identical)

A good example:
Pre GWOT Rangers, operated in small teams, wore no helmet on a Recon, no Flak Jackets and just a basic load of Ammo had no immediate access to mortars etc etc..(as they were traveling entirely by foot)
So they mostly tried to avoid firefights and when they did engage they tried to solve their problems mostly by rifle fire and maneuver

Big mil GWOT Forces, wear Helmets all the time, Armor basically all the time, often extra bandoleers of Ammo past the basic load, by default often substitute Fire support for maneuver etc etc etc.

Thats why I believe the Pre GWOT LightFighter Operational Concept is much closer to ours than whats currently going on in the big .mil

PS: Its a ironic That Rangers are now considered Special Operations Forces considering their raison-de-etre is excellence at traditional Light Infantry tasks.
Recently we have seen that SpecOps forces do the direct action and the general Purpose Combat Arms does the instruction foreign forces which is a complete role reversal over how its properly supposed to be. This is clearly the result of the unhealthy dominance of SOCOM within DOD and of JSOC within SOCOM.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 11:26:39 PM by Erick »
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Offline CJS06

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Re: Flash hider
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2017, 10:23:37 PM »
@CJSO6 and Eric. You may be off a little but answered questions that I would have ask. I would love to have a can and night vision sights but state law on the can says no and lack of funds for night vision.
JoJo
What State are you in? Sorry I see you are in Delaware.  I understand the problems with restrictive states, it sucks. I also understand the NV funding issues. NODs by themselves are good but to be really effective you need a designator(laser) and some form of illuminator as well as helmet/mount which can be $$.  If you ever decide to go down the road you can find decent used, refurb packages for significantly less than new.  Particularly with a ton of people upgrading to White Phosphor units there are some great deals on green units. I recently saw a couple of packages (PVS14 gen3 w/bump helmet & mount, DBal I2, Surefire 952v) go for $2750. I know this isnt cheap, but compared to over $5k new for the similar package it is not bad. You never now when they will come up by they do seem to happen in bunches. I still run only a single tube, but have been considering going to a dual or to a combi NV/ Thermal split unit.

Erick -  :thumbsUp:
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 10:29:22 PM by CJS06 »

Offline Erick

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Re: Flash hider
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2017, 11:35:53 PM »
JoJo, (and CJ)

I am currently working on a serious Economy Night fighting emsemble.
right now waiting for all the components to come in..... one of the items is a 2-4 week delivery.

Once i have it, I will do  a proof of concept exercise with Night patrolling and night time live fire, with a direct performance comparison to my benchmark Milspec kit (PVS14+DBAL+IR light+ FAST Helmet+milspec mounts)

While it will not perform as a milspec PVS14 , I am hoping for  a 70-80% performance ...target price however is a fraction of benchmark.

I am hopeful to get my last key component in next 2 weeks and have publishable results around end of this month.

If successful outcome..... I will publish all results and all components-to-buy with links where to buy components provided.
This will be published on just a very small number of my favorite forums.

This being one of them.

Watch this space. :dance:
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Offline JohnyMac

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Re: Flash hider
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2017, 10:03:16 AM »
@ Erick, looking forward to your article.  :thumbsUp:
@ CJS, where would one look for a refurbished NOD like you described?  :thumbsUp:
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Offline CJS06

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Re: Flash hider
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2017, 01:47:41 PM »
@ Erick, looking forward to your article.  :thumbsUp:
@ CJS, where would one look for a refurbished NOD like you described?  :thumbsUp:

There are a couple of shops that have them periodically.  MODarmory, Nightlong Industries and Willis Optis are the ones that do a good job and I have seen recently.  I am also on a facebook group Tactical Gear Sales & Discussions that has them come up quite a bit.

Im looking forward to Erick article as well.

Chris

Offline Grudgie

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Re: Flash hider
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2017, 02:23:11 PM »
This is the best video series I have ever seen on muzzle brakes. This guy tests about a hundred different brakes and compares them using computer software. To save you a few minutes of reading the brake that reduced rear recoil the most was the SJC Titan, which reduced the tested AR15 from sliding 11 inches rearward with no muzzle brake to sliding 2.5 inches rearward with the SJC Titan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sBjQjC89uA


http://stores.sjcguns.com/lund-sjc-223-titan-compensator/
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 02:32:58 PM by Grudgie »

Offline grizz

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Re: Flash hider
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2017, 04:27:32 PM »
with all brakes the gases are shot out of the sides and also the noise is shot out of the sides, be mindful of who is shooting next to you.

The brake I got has a removable hood. W/O the hood I get zero recoil and the barrel is actually getting pushed down a little. With the hood there is a little more recoil the the muzzle will rise a little but it is much quieter because the noise is directed forward. I have it on a Tavor w/16" barrel and shoots 5.56
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Offline CJS06

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Re: Flash hider
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2017, 08:58:08 PM »
with all brakes the gases are shot out of the sides and also the noise is shot out of the sides, be mindful of who is shooting next to you.

The brake I got has a removable hood. W/O the hood I get zero recoil and the barrel is actually getting pushed down a little. With the hood there is a little more recoil the the muzzle will rise a little but it is much quieter because the noise is directed forward. I have it on a Tavor w/16" barrel and shoots 5.56
Grizz
I have a Warden blast diffuser(hood) to go over my Surefire brakes for when I am shooting indoors or alongside others when I am not able to use a can.  It makes it much more civilized for people around me.  I have been cracked drywall and broken a computer monitor due to blast during a CQB class a while back. When shooting around cars plastic lights and trim dont have a chance.  I did a CQB course in a old prison where they did not allow us to run cans. Out of a 4 man team, 3 of us had SF brakes.  I think my teeth are still loose from those things banging away in a mostly cement environment. But I would do it again if I had the oportunity  :fuckYeah:

Chris