Author Topic: Debate on the Pros/Cons of Manual Firearm Safeties  (Read 7764 times)

Offline Kentactic

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Re: Re: M9 good?
« Reply #50 on: January 06, 2012, 11:42:24 AM »
A potential downside to something striker fired, is no seconed strike. While overall tap rack and bang is the answer. What if the attacker is on top of you or get you from the side. Pull the trigger, and nothing happens. Often times on a bad rounds the primer will ignite on a seconed or third strike. Like I said not the answer to all problems but good luck doing a tap rack and bang while getting physical with someone. Also a note of safeties. Its purely a training issue. There have been many occasion where on duty officers have been saved by their safety. Bad guy grabs gun, to shoot the cop. Pull trigger and nothing happens. Give the cop just enough time to react and save his own ass. Just a couple things to think about.

id still tap rack on a DA if a guys charging me... im not going to bet my life this was one of the rare times the second or third strike makes it go bang. tap racks slower but a lot better chance of making it go bang once completed.
Wasnt speaking of if they are charging you. More so on you, is what I was refering to. Also how fast can you tap rack bang? A person can cover more than 21ft in under a seconed. After your draw, aim, and pull how long did that take? And if the bag guy is motivated how close to you is he after you hear a very loud click? I'm not saying a seconed strike is the answer to most sircumstances. I am saying it potentially has its place. Just like point shooting or any other tool that happens to be in the tool box.
Also a firearms without a safety has probably had more AD's than one with. While in panic mode one could just as easily have their finger on the trigger while drawing from a holster, inturn shooting themselves.

i dont train with a DA pistol. but is there ever a time when one should try second and third strikes ona  round to see if it goes bang? in my opinion id say no never. the only time ive ever experienced a round that didnt go bang and second strikes cured the problem is on old surplus rifles that had cosmoline jammed inside the bolt that i never cleaned out before shooting them and the strikes were weak because of that. id say in any situation with a DA or not id just go for the much more likely tap rack then the "please god let it just need a second strike".... how long does a "tap, rack, bang" take?... well its a little bit less time then "second strike, third strike, tap, rack, bang"... i say this because if you going for a second and maybe third strikes on the gun you better make damn sure youll have time to tap rack bang if that very rare occassion a round needs another strike or two magically still dosent occur.
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Offline Kentactic

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Re: Debate on the Pros/Cons of Manual Firearm Safeties
« Reply #51 on: January 06, 2012, 11:55:52 AM »
Quote
I have carried a hammer fired pistol often in brush. Also had one go down in a creek with me one deer season. Diddnt effect function at all.

ive never been shot before and people who have owned guns have been mad at me.. i must be bullet proof cus it hasnt happened yet.

Look guys i dont train with a DA auto loading pistol...and ive only shot a handfull. i dont know if you guys are talking out of your asses because you dont like what im saying about DA pistols or if you actually know wtf your talking about though teachings from people smarter then us. but the people smarter then us that ive learned from tell you to decock the hammer on a DA because shit can get in the way... its just a shelf on your person waiting for something to rest on. you guys ever taken a dive into some sand?... that open pocket would scoop up dirt like crazy... and id have to say i think a bunch of sand in the way is going to cause issues... and thats way more likely then sand stopping a glock some how.
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Offline themighty9mm

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Re: Re: M9 good?
« Reply #52 on: January 06, 2012, 01:31:07 PM »
A potential downside to something striker fired, is no seconed strike. While overall tap rack and bang is the answer. What if the attacker is on top of you or get you from the side. Pull the trigger, and nothing happens. Often times on a bad rounds the primer will ignite on a seconed or third strike. Like I said not the answer to all problems but good luck doing a tap rack and bang while getting physical with someone. Also a note of safeties. Its purely a training issue. There have been many occasion where on duty officers have been saved by their safety. Bad guy grabs gun, to shoot the cop. Pull trigger and nothing happens. Give the cop just enough time to react and save his own ass. Just a couple things to think about.

id still tap rack on a DA if a guys charging me... im not going to bet my life this was one of the rare times the second or third strike makes it go bang. tap racks slower but a lot better chance of making it go bang once completed.
Wasnt speaking of if they are charging you. More so on you, is what I was refering to. Also how fast can you tap rack bang? A person can cover more than 21ft in under a seconed. After your draw, aim, and pull how long did that take? And if the bag guy is motivated how close to you is he after you hear a very loud click? I'm not saying a seconed strike is the answer to most sircumstances. I am saying it potentially has its place. Just like point shooting or any other tool that happens to be in the tool box.
Also a firearms without a safety has probably had more AD's than one with. While in panic mode one could just as easily have their finger on the trigger while drawing from a holster, inturn shooting themselves.

i dont train with a DA pistol. but is there ever a time when one should try second and third strikes ona  round to see if it goes bang? in my opinion id say no never. the only time ive ever experienced a round that didnt go bang and second strikes cured the problem is on old surplus rifles that had cosmoline jammed inside the bolt that i never cleaned out before shooting them and the strikes were weak because of that. id say in any situation with a DA or not id just go for the much more likely tap rack then the "please god let it just need a second strike".... how long does a "tap, rack, bang" take?... well its a little bit less time then "second strike, third strike, tap, rack, bang"... i say this because if you going for a second and maybe third strikes on the gun you better make damn sure youll have time to tap rack bang if that very rare occassion a round needs another strike or two magically still dosent occur.

No, no... you are not getting what I'm saying. If they are ON you. As in on top of you. As in physically on top of you. There will be no opportunity what so ever. To do any tap rack and bang. Anybody who has ever been in a fist fight that went to the ground can tell you the same thing. Again, it's not a end all be all solution. But it does have its place. Again, another tool in the tool box sort of thing
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Offline themighty9mm

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Re: Debate on the Pros/Cons of Manual Firearm Safeties
« Reply #53 on: January 06, 2012, 01:37:50 PM »
Quote
I have carried a hammer fired pistol often in brush. Also had one go down in a creek with me one deer season. Diddnt effect function at all.

ive never been shot before and people who have owned guns have been mad at me.. i must be bullet proof cus it hasnt happened yet.

Look guys i dont train with a DA auto loading pistol...and ive only shot a handfull. i dont know if you guys are talking out of your asses because you dont like what im saying about DA pistols or if you actually know wtf your talking about though teachings from people smarter then us. but the people smarter then us that ive learned from tell you to decock the hammer on a DA because shit can get in the way... its just a shelf on your person waiting for something to rest on. you guys ever taken a dive into some sand?... that open pocket would scoop up dirt like crazy... and id have to say i think a bunch of sand in the way is going to cause issues... and thats way more likely then sand stopping a glock some how.
I'm not talking from my ass, nore just listening to some guys words. Experience in my oppinion, trumps all.. My experience has showed me, the likely hood of any debris getting between the hammer, or firing pin channel on a glock is so small, its insignifigant. And what shelf are you talking about? On a DA gun the hammer is down. Not a thing is gtting between the hammer and firing pin. No more sand is going to get inside the channel of a DA gun than a glock. Exactly why I used the m9 and glock as a reference. Maybe you were specifically speaking of SA??
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Offline sledge

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Re: Re: M9 good?
« Reply #54 on: January 06, 2012, 01:42:26 PM »
A potential downside to something striker fired, is no seconed strike. While overall tap rack and bang is the answer. What if the attacker is on top of you or get you from the side. Pull the trigger, and nothing happens. Often times on a bad rounds the primer will ignite on a seconed or third strike. Like I said not the answer to all problems but good luck doing a tap rack and bang while getting physical with someone. Also a note of safeties. Its purely a training issue. There have been many occasion where on duty officers have been saved by their safety. Bad guy grabs gun, to shoot the cop. Pull trigger and nothing happens. Give the cop just enough time to react and save his own ass. Just a couple things to think about.

id still tap rack on a DA if a guys charging me... im not going to bet my life this was one of the rare times the second or third strike makes it go bang. tap racks slower but a lot better chance of making it go bang once completed.
Wasnt speaking of if they are charging you. More so on you, is what I was refering to. Also how fast can you tap rack bang? A person can cover more than 21ft in under a seconed. After your draw, aim, and pull how long did that take? And if the bag guy is motivated how close to you is he after you hear a very loud click? I'm not saying a seconed strike is the answer to most sircumstances. I am saying it potentially has its place. Just like point shooting or any other tool that happens to be in the tool box.
Also a firearms without a safety has probably had more AD's than one with. While in panic mode one could just as easily have their finger on the trigger while drawing from a holster, inturn shooting themselves.

i dont train with a DA pistol. but is there ever a time when one should try second and third strikes ona  round to see if it goes bang? in my opinion id say no never. the only time ive ever experienced a round that didnt go bang and second strikes cured the problem is on old surplus rifles that had cosmoline jammed inside the bolt that i never cleaned out before shooting them and the strikes were weak because of that. id say in any situation with a DA or not id just go for the much more likely tap rack then the "please god let it just need a second strike".... how long does a "tap, rack, bang" take?... well its a little bit less time then "second strike, third strike, tap, rack, bang"... i say this because if you going for a second and maybe third strikes on the gun you better make damn sure youll have time to tap rack bang if that very rare occassion a round needs another strike or two magically still dosent occur.

No, no... you are not getting what I'm saying. If they are ON you. As in on top of you. As in physically on top of you. There will be no opportunity what so ever. To do any tap rack and bang. Anybody who has ever been in a fist fight that went to the ground can tell you the same thing. Again, it's not a end all be all solution. But it does have its place. Again, another tool in the tool box sort of thing

This is really getting out there now.  If someone is on top of you like that before you react, you deserve what you get unless you were sleeping.  If they are on top of you like that wasting time going for your pistol would be pretty foolish.  And if I'm fighting on the ground with someone I don't want a cocked and locked pistol on my side.

The M9 will kill an opponent if applied effectively.  Was that the original question?   :)



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Offline Kentactic

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Re: Debate on the Pros/Cons of Manual Firearm Safeties
« Reply #55 on: January 06, 2012, 01:48:29 PM »
Quote
I have carried a hammer fired pistol often in brush. Also had one go down in a creek with me one deer season. Diddnt effect function at all.

ive never been shot before and people who have owned guns have been mad at me.. i must be bullet proof cus it hasnt happened yet.

Look guys i dont train with a DA auto loading pistol...and ive only shot a handfull. i dont know if you guys are talking out of your asses because you dont like what im saying about DA pistols or if you actually know wtf your talking about though teachings from people smarter then us. but the people smarter then us that ive learned from tell you to decock the hammer on a DA because shit can get in the way... its just a shelf on your person waiting for something to rest on. you guys ever taken a dive into some sand?... that open pocket would scoop up dirt like crazy... and id have to say i think a bunch of sand in the way is going to cause issues... and thats way more likely then sand stopping a glock some how.
I'm not talking from my ass, nore just listening to some guys words. Experience in my oppinion, trumps all.. My experience has showed me, the likely hood of any debris getting between the hammer, or firing pin channel on a glock is so small, its insignifigant. And what shelf are you talking about? On a DA gun the hammer is down. Not a thing is gtting between the hammer and firing pin. No more sand is going to get inside the channel of a DA gun than a glock. Exactly why I used the m9 and glock as a reference. Maybe you were specifically speaking of SA??

Yes thats all im saying.. on a DA hammer fired pistol the gun needs to be Decocked after use and before its holstered. walking around with a cocked hammer in the holster is asking for shit to get in there.

i assumed you were saying you leave the pistol cocked upon reholstering:

"M9... draw... shoot... holster... Safety is optional"

if you draw shoot and holster you still have a cocked hammer.. and a cocked hammer on a gun with the safety not on is kinda sketchy because there is no trigger safety to make it some what safer. aswell as the danger of debris blocking the hammer from proper function.

let me make it clear im not knocking the use of DA guns... many people use them and thats just fine. but where i have issues is when people say its ok to impropely use a specific gun.
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Offline themighty9mm

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Re: Re: M9 good?
« Reply #56 on: January 06, 2012, 01:53:17 PM »
A potential downside to something striker fired, is no seconed strike. While overall tap rack and bang is the answer. What if the attacker is on top of you or get you from the side. Pull the trigger, and nothing happens. Often times on a bad rounds the primer will ignite on a seconed or third strike. Like I said not the answer to all problems but good luck doing a tap rack and bang while getting physical with someone. Also a note of safeties. Its purely a training issue. There have been many occasion where on duty officers have been saved by their safety. Bad guy grabs gun, to shoot the cop. Pull trigger and nothing happens. Give the cop just enough time to react and save his own ass. Just a couple things to think about.

id still tap rack on a DA if a guys charging me... im not going to bet my life this was one of the rare times the second or third strike makes it go bang. tap racks slower but a lot better chance of making it go bang once completed.
Wasnt speaking of if they are charging you. More so on you, is what I was refering to. Also how fast can you tap rack bang? A person can cover more than 21ft in under a seconed. After your draw, aim, and pull how long did that take? And if the bag guy is motivated how close to you is he after you hear a very loud click? I'm not saying a seconed strike is the answer to most sircumstances. I am saying it potentially has its place. Just like point shooting or any other tool that happens to be in the tool box.
Also a firearms without a safety has probably had more AD's than one with. While in panic mode one could just as easily have their finger on the trigger while drawing from a holster, inturn shooting themselves.

i dont train with a DA pistol. but is there ever a time when one should try second and third strikes ona  round to see if it goes bang? in my opinion id say no never. the only time ive ever experienced a round that didnt go bang and second strikes cured the problem is on old surplus rifles that had cosmoline jammed inside the bolt that i never cleaned out before shooting them and the strikes were weak because of that. id say in any situation with a DA or not id just go for the much more likely tap rack then the "please god let it just need a second strike".... how long does a "tap, rack, bang" take?... well its a little bit less time then "second strike, third strike, tap, rack, bang"... i say this because if you going for a second and maybe third strikes on the gun you better make damn sure youll have time to tap rack bang if that very rare occassion a round needs another strike or two magically still dosent occur.

No, no... you are not getting what I'm saying. If they are ON you. As in on top of you. As in physically on top of you. There will be no opportunity what so ever. To do any tap rack and bang. Anybody who has ever been in a fist fight that went to the ground can tell you the same thing. Again, it's not a end all be all solution. But it does have its place. Again, another tool in the tool box sort of thing

This is really getting out there now.  If someone is on top of you like that before you react, you deserve what you get unless you were sleeping.  If they are on top of you like that wasting time going for your pistol would be pretty foolish.  And if I'm fighting on the ground with someone I don't want a cocked and locked pistol on my side.

The M9 will kill an opponent if applied effectively.  Was that the original question?   :)

I dont see how its so far out there. Given a civillian scenario. A mugging, maybe you get jumped, maybe more than one bad guy. Unless, everyone is a little baby jerry mickelec (sp? I know i just destroyed his last name) If this is the case though, I have yet to see it in my years of shooting. What I tend to see on most public ranges is some piss poor either very slow pace of ridiculously fast paced shooting. Back to a civillian scenario. Given the poor shooting I have seen, with any sort of multiple BG's alot of misses would give the BG every opportunity to get on top of his now perceived threat are very much so possible. I really dont see a BG being physically on top of you a far stretch at all. Most people wont try to rob you at 50 yards out. Most crime is within 7 yards, 21 feet. And that bring my back to how fast can you tap rack and bang? A average person can cover 21 feet in under a seconed. So to me a seconed strike has its place. Another tool in the tool box. Not the answer to everything, but has its place. Same thing for example would be point shooting. Not the end all be all. But has its place
« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 02:19:07 PM by themighty9mm »
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Offline Kentactic

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Re: Re: M9 good?
« Reply #57 on: January 06, 2012, 01:55:54 PM »
A potential downside to something striker fired, is no seconed strike. While overall tap rack and bang is the answer. What if the attacker is on top of you or get you from the side. Pull the trigger, and nothing happens. Often times on a bad rounds the primer will ignite on a seconed or third strike. Like I said not the answer to all problems but good luck doing a tap rack and bang while getting physical with someone. Also a note of safeties. Its purely a training issue. There have been many occasion where on duty officers have been saved by their safety. Bad guy grabs gun, to shoot the cop. Pull trigger and nothing happens. Give the cop just enough time to react and save his own ass. Just a couple things to think about.

id still tap rack on a DA if a guys charging me... im not going to bet my life this was one of the rare times the second or third strike makes it go bang. tap racks slower but a lot better chance of making it go bang once completed.
Wasnt speaking of if they are charging you. More so on you, is what I was refering to. Also how fast can you tap rack bang? A person can cover more than 21ft in under a seconed. After your draw, aim, and pull how long did that take? And if the bag guy is motivated how close to you is he after you hear a very loud click? I'm not saying a seconed strike is the answer to most sircumstances. I am saying it potentially has its place. Just like point shooting or any other tool that happens to be in the tool box.
Also a firearms without a safety has probably had more AD's than one with. While in panic mode one could just as easily have their finger on the trigger while drawing from a holster, inturn shooting themselves.

i dont train with a DA pistol. but is there ever a time when one should try second and third strikes ona  round to see if it goes bang? in my opinion id say no never. the only time ive ever experienced a round that didnt go bang and second strikes cured the problem is on old surplus rifles that had cosmoline jammed inside the bolt that i never cleaned out before shooting them and the strikes were weak because of that. id say in any situation with a DA or not id just go for the much more likely tap rack then the "please god let it just need a second strike".... how long does a "tap, rack, bang" take?... well its a little bit less time then "second strike, third strike, tap, rack, bang"... i say this because if you going for a second and maybe third strikes on the gun you better make damn sure youll have time to tap rack bang if that very rare occassion a round needs another strike or two magically still dosent occur.

No, no... you are not getting what I'm saying. If they are ON you. As in on top of you. As in physically on top of you. There will be no opportunity what so ever. To do any tap rack and bang. Anybody who has ever been in a fist fight that went to the ground can tell you the same thing. Again, it's not a end all be all solution. But it does have its place. Again, another tool in the tool box sort of thing

if your on the ground with a bad guy fighting and the pistol no longer shoots thank your lucky stars that atleast the simple act of pulling the trigger dosent make it go bang any longer and if a DA pistol will possibly make it go bang where a SA will not then thats a dissadvantage in my eyes. the last thing i want to do is be fighting on the ground for a gun that works.

EDIT: but were talking about a situation that you might shoot 1 million rounds and never actually see a round require 2 strikes to go bang unless its a gun problem. the scenario is so rare it shouldnt even be considered in training in my personal opinion. so as far as im concerned when my sidearm goes down. wether it be M9, glock or what ever.. im tap racking to try and fix the problem.

if you think a second strike may fix the problem then you must incorporate the multiple strikes into every malfunction you ever have with a pistol... you must now strike strike tap rack... because you arent going to train to tap rack and then a guys on you and suddenly you rise to the occassion and do something youve never practiced. so once again..its way to rare a problem and scenarion to even consider training for it. it will make you over all less effective. you sacrifice all other situations to make one very rare one better.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 02:03:39 PM by Kentactic »
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Offline themighty9mm

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Re: Debate on the Pros/Cons of Manual Firearm Safeties
« Reply #58 on: January 06, 2012, 01:58:08 PM »
Quote
I have carried a hammer fired pistol often in brush. Also had one go down in a creek with me one deer season. Diddnt effect function at all.

ive never been shot before and people who have owned guns have been mad at me.. i must be bullet proof cus it hasnt happened yet.

Look guys i dont train with a DA auto loading pistol...and ive only shot a handfull. i dont know if you guys are talking out of your asses because you dont like what im saying about DA pistols or if you actually know wtf your talking about though teachings from people smarter then us. but the people smarter then us that ive learned from tell you to decock the hammer on a DA because shit can get in the way... its just a shelf on your person waiting for something to rest on. you guys ever taken a dive into some sand?... that open pocket would scoop up dirt like crazy... and id have to say i think a bunch of sand in the way is going to cause issues... and thats way more likely then sand stopping a glock some how.
I'm not talking from my ass, nore just listening to some guys words. Experience in my oppinion, trumps all.. My experience has showed me, the likely hood of any debris getting between the hammer, or firing pin channel on a glock is so small, its insignifigant. And what shelf are you talking about? On a DA gun the hammer is down. Not a thing is gtting between the hammer and firing pin. No more sand is going to get inside the channel of a DA gun than a glock. Exactly why I used the m9 and glock as a reference. Maybe you were specifically speaking of SA??

Yes thats all im saying.. on a DA hammer fired pistol the gun needs to be Decocked after use and before its holstered. walking around with a cocked hammer in the holster is asking for shit to get in there.

i assumed you were saying you leave the pistol cocked upon reholstering:
No, that wouldnt make any sense at all. I guess do to my experience with them I also assumed everyone else already knew that. Things like that have become, habit/muscle memory a while back
"M9... draw... shoot... holster... Safety is optional"

if you draw shoot and holster you still have a cocked hammer.. and a cocked hammer on a gun with the safety not on is kinda sketchy because there is no trigger safety to make it some what safer. aswell as the danger of debris blocking the hammer from proper function.
Well, yea
let me make it clear im not knocking the use of DA guns... many people use them and thats just fine. but where i have issues is when people say its ok to impropely use a specific gun.
Uh Huh, I fully agree. No argument from me what so ever on that. Just like each tool in the box. Each one has its place.
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Offline themighty9mm

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Re: Re: M9 good?
« Reply #59 on: January 06, 2012, 02:03:52 PM »
A potential downside to something striker fired, is no seconed strike. While overall tap rack and bang is the answer. What if the attacker is on top of you or get you from the side. Pull the trigger, and nothing happens. Often times on a bad rounds the primer will ignite on a seconed or third strike. Like I said not the answer to all problems but good luck doing a tap rack and bang while getting physical with someone. Also a note of safeties. Its purely a training issue. There have been many occasion where on duty officers have been saved by their safety. Bad guy grabs gun, to shoot the cop. Pull trigger and nothing happens. Give the cop just enough time to react and save his own ass. Just a couple things to think about.

id still tap rack on a DA if a guys charging me... im not going to bet my life this was one of the rare times the second or third strike makes it go bang. tap racks slower but a lot better chance of making it go bang once completed.
Wasnt speaking of if they are charging you. More so on you, is what I was refering to. Also how fast can you tap rack bang? A person can cover more than 21ft in under a seconed. After your draw, aim, and pull how long did that take? And if the bag guy is motivated how close to you is he after you hear a very loud click? I'm not saying a seconed strike is the answer to most sircumstances. I am saying it potentially has its place. Just like point shooting or any other tool that happens to be in the tool box.
Also a firearms without a safety has probably had more AD's than one with. While in panic mode one could just as easily have their finger on the trigger while drawing from a holster, inturn shooting themselves.

i dont train with a DA pistol. but is there ever a time when one should try second and third strikes ona  round to see if it goes bang? in my opinion id say no never. the only time ive ever experienced a round that didnt go bang and second strikes cured the problem is on old surplus rifles that had cosmoline jammed inside the bolt that i never cleaned out before shooting them and the strikes were weak because of that. id say in any situation with a DA or not id just go for the much more likely tap rack then the "please god let it just need a second strike".... how long does a "tap, rack, bang" take?... well its a little bit less time then "second strike, third strike, tap, rack, bang"... i say this because if you going for a second and maybe third strikes on the gun you better make damn sure youll have time to tap rack bang if that very rare occassion a round needs another strike or two magically still dosent occur.

No, no... you are not getting what I'm saying. If they are ON you. As in on top of you. As in physically on top of you. There will be no opportunity what so ever. To do any tap rack and bang. Anybody who has ever been in a fist fight that went to the ground can tell you the same thing. Again, it's not a end all be all solution. But it does have its place. Again, another tool in the tool box sort of thing

if your on the ground with a bad guy fighting and the pistol no longer shoots thank your lucky stars that atleast the simple act of pulling the trigger dosent make it go bang any longer and if a DA pistol will possibly make it go bang where a SA will not then thats a dissadvantage in my eyes. the last thing i want to do is be fighting on the ground for a gun that works.
I'm not sayig at all sit there and pull and pull and pull. But often times, the first strike will reseat/correctly seat the primer and the seconed strike will ignite it. Again, like I said its not a end all be all solution. Just another tool or option
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Offline Kentactic

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Re: Debate on the Pros/Cons of Manual Firearm Safeties
« Reply #60 on: January 06, 2012, 02:20:25 PM »
i saw that Mr. post deleter...  8)
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Offline themighty9mm

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Re: Debate on the Pros/Cons of Manual Firearm Safeties
« Reply #61 on: January 06, 2012, 02:21:22 PM »
Lol I did aswell
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Offline sledge

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Re: Debate on the Pros/Cons of Manual Firearm Safeties
« Reply #62 on: January 06, 2012, 02:22:49 PM »
i saw that Mr. post deleter...  8)

Yeah, I thought I was in the "M9 Good" section.  Then I saw it was in the "moved mechanical safety section" so I deleted my response.  Argue away guys.  But damn, that white area of preceeding posts is getting rather large.   :)



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Re: Debate on the Pros/Cons of Manual Firearm Safeties
« Reply #63 on: January 06, 2012, 02:23:31 PM »
If it gets down and dirty with any non functioning handgun that weapon becomes a bludgeon or is discarded for a blade and or my teeth, elbows, fists, thick skull, boots, even body weight... imo.

I haven't got the time to be screwing around with a less than effective potential attack.

I don't intend to give up initiative regardless. Keep the hate coming fast and endless from any where you can till your done with the threat.

Offline Kentactic

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Re: Debate on the Pros/Cons of Manual Firearm Safeties
« Reply #64 on: January 06, 2012, 02:25:42 PM »
i saw that Mr. post deleter...  8)

Yeah, I thought I was in the "M9 Good" section.  Then I saw it was in the "moved mechanical safety section" so I deleted my response.  Argue away guys.  But damn, that white area of preceeding posts is getting rather large.   :)

lol right on...and yes it sure is.
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1000meterstare

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Re: Debate on the Pros/Cons of Manual Firearm Safeties
« Reply #65 on: January 07, 2012, 07:24:11 AM »
For an autopistol, decock-only is the way to go and no one can convince me otherwise.  The safety is just another thing that if added with more "other things" over complicates your weapon unneccessarily.  Simple is always better (and usually faster in a fight).  Double-action only autos were invented by lawyers, not shooters.  Stay away from them.  Each trigger pull is as atrocious as having sex with a nun.  Oh, and Glocks:  safety on the trigger?  What FU*KING brilliant human with down syndrome thought that one up?  You have got to be kidding me.  If you are gonna have a safety it shouldn't be on the trigger. [img]http://www.arrse.co.uk/at

Offline Kentactic

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Re: Debate on the Pros/Cons of Manual Firearm Safeties
« Reply #66 on: January 07, 2012, 11:43:16 AM »
For an autopistol, decock-only is the way to go and no one can convince me otherwise.  The safety is just another thing that if added with more "other things" over complicates your weapon unneccessarily.  Simple is always better (and usually faster in a fight).  Double-action only autos were invented by lawyers, not shooters.  Stay away from them.  Each trigger pull is as atrocious as having sex with a nun.  Oh, and Glocks:  safety on the trigger?  What FU*KING brilliant human with down syndrome thought that one up?  You have got to be kidding me.  If you are gonna have a safety it shouldn't be on the trigger. [img]http://www.arrse.co.uk/at


whats better then a safety that just the normal act of pulling the trigger engages and disengages it for you?... its a safety you never have to mess with but immediatly engages upon removing your finger from the trigger... fucking genious... thats just my opinion though..lol
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Offline Rail Driver

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Re: Debate on the Pros/Cons of Manual Firearm Safeties
« Reply #67 on: January 07, 2012, 06:22:52 PM »
whats better then a safety that just the normal act of pulling the trigger engages and disengages it for you?... its a safety you never have to mess with but immediatly engages upon removing your finger from the trigger... fucking genious... thats just my opinion though..lol

Mainly because if something other than your finger (or your finger if unintended) gets in there, the gun will go bang. My 1911 won't fire unless I take the safety off and grip the pistol properly no matter how hard I jam on that trigger. In fact, the trigger itself will break before the gun fires with either the grip safety or the thumb safety engaged.

Nobody's perfect and even the most highly trained individuals can have accidents. If you trust yourself and your gun handling to the point that you're comfortable with a no (manual) safety Glock or similar, then great... I have loved the Glocks I owned, but I sure won't sleep with one under my pillow.
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Offline Kobalt

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Re: Debate on the Pros/Cons of Manual Firearm Safeties
« Reply #68 on: January 07, 2012, 06:37:05 PM »
Maybe your crazy hair will switch the safety off and pull the trigger.  :))
Fan out your shots. We want everyone to get some.

Offline rah45

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Re: Debate on the Pros/Cons of Manual Firearm Safeties
« Reply #69 on: January 07, 2012, 07:46:18 PM »
Maybe your crazy hair will switch the safety off and pull the trigger.  :))


Hahaha...RD, don't hate bro, but it reminded me of this, and I couldn't resist.  :P


Offline Kentactic

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Re: Debate on the Pros/Cons of Manual Firearm Safeties
« Reply #70 on: January 08, 2012, 11:55:13 AM »
whats better then a safety that just the normal act of pulling the trigger engages and disengages it for you?... its a safety you never have to mess with but immediatly engages upon removing your finger from the trigger... fucking genious... thats just my opinion though..lol

Mainly because if something other than your finger (or your finger if unintended) gets in there, the gun will go bang. My 1911 won't fire unless I take the safety off and grip the pistol properly no matter how hard I jam on that trigger. In fact, the trigger itself will break before the gun fires with either the grip safety or the thumb safety engaged.

Nobody's perfect and even the most highly trained individuals can have accidents. If you trust yourself and your gun handling to the point that you're comfortable with a no (manual) safety Glock or similar, then great... I have loved the Glocks I owned, but I sure won't sleep with one under my pillow.

i dont care what type of gun you have the same amount of human error is in play. some times the safety itself becomes the reason you end up with an accident... a safety is no excuse to be less comfortable with your pistol.
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Offline themighty9mm

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Re: Re: M9 good?
« Reply #71 on: January 09, 2012, 03:37:40 AM »
Again, it's not a end all be all solution. But it does have its place. Again, another tool in the tool box sort of thing
[/quote]

EDIT: but were talking about a situation that you might shoot 1 million rounds and never actually see a round require 2 strikes to go bang unless its a gun problem. the scenario is so rare it shouldnt even be considered in training in my personal opinion. so as far as im concerned when my sidearm goes down. wether it be M9, glock or what ever.. im tap racking to try and fix the problem.

if you think a second strike may fix the problem then you must incorporate the multiple strikes into every malfunction you ever have with a pistol... you must now strike strike tap rack... because you arent going to train to tap rack and then a guys on you and suddenly you rise to the occassion and do something youve never practiced. so once again..its way to rare a problem and scenarion to even consider training for it. it will make you over all less effective. you sacrifice all other situations to make one very rare one better.
[/quote]
Yes its a very unlikely scenario, on the same not its also highly unlikely you will ever even need to pull your gun. On the off chance, you one day do need to pull your gun the chance that 1 in those next 30 or so rounds is going to fail is most likely 1-1,000,000 aswell. From what I have seen any failure with a modern pistol has about the same likelyhood as the next. This is provided the operator of the weapon does do routine maintence, and replaces parts in a timly manner. Also provided the operator of the weapon is using a know to them quality ammo

And why the hell would I have to incorporate it in every malfunction drill? Just like I'v been saying. Its a specific thing for a specific problem. That being for when the BG is to close to do a tap rack and pull. With the very quick examples I gave earier, all I was getting at is in a typical self defence scenario it's likely you wont have time for a tap rack and pull. In those instances, should you have a failure to fire, a seconed pull would be a reasonable option, and I assume a damn near knee jerk reaction (provided the BG is physically on you) just before going for your knife, or swinging or whatever other option you go with. Once again, I'm not saying pull and pull and pull, and not saying for every scenario. I do indeed force malfuntions, and train for a tap rack and pull. Dont make the mistake that I instead try for a seconed pull. Because that is simply not the case. All I have been saying the whole time is for a specific situation, a situation that I have to assume in most self defence shooting is over 1/3 of the time. A seconed strike potentially has its place. Not everytime, not every scenario. But if the BG in physically on me I will take that extra 1/10th seconed to jerk my finger one last time before going to my knife or hands. Hell its something that could be done as your going for a knife. You are trying to completly discard it as ever a option. In your case with a glock no matter the situation its physically not an option. In my case with a DA auto it is. If its something that by gods good grace might save my ass I'm going to go a head and try it once and hope (very very quickly) that it works. I would far rather do that, than the very terifying option of getting into a knife fight with someone. If/when the unlikely scenario that I need a gun comes up, followed by the even more unlikely scenario that I have a malufunction, I'll be damn glad that if the scenario arises that I at least have the option.
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Offline Outonowhere

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Re: Debate on the Pros/Cons of Manual Firearm Safeties
« Reply #72 on: January 09, 2012, 08:34:06 AM »
Just throwin this lil nugget in there...

If I am in a wrestling match with someone the last thing Im gonna do is unholster my weapon if it isnt already out.  At a certain distance in many situations it is better to just go with ole' pointy shiny...  :))
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Offline mountainredneck2051

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Re: Debate on the Pros/Cons of Manual Firearm Safeties
« Reply #73 on: January 09, 2012, 11:17:11 AM »
oh cmon yall, we all know glocks/ M&P's/xdm's have no safeties
they just put that little trigger thing on there to so they can say it has a safety feature.....

which is why i like them  [url=http://www.freesmileys.or
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Offline EJR914

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Re: Debate on the Pros/Cons of Manual Firearm Safeties
« Reply #74 on: January 09, 2012, 12:36:33 PM »
I've got a P229, DA/SA, just the way I like it.  Sure it takes some practice to get good and accurate with it, the first shot that is, but it really is no more practice than me learning to have to pop the safety off a cocked and locked 1911 before firing. 

Its what I've trained with, its what I know, and I shoot it well.

I would have to retrain myself completely to go to say a 1911 now.  Not say I won't ever, but it would take a lot of undoing muscle memory, or actually adding muscle memory to my draw to pop off a safety.

Plus, now that I'm not used to one, who's to say I won't miss the safety or forget about it, in that split second where I have to draw and fire.