Bear Grylls- Get Out Alive critique

[thatGuy]

HH6 is out of the house so I managed to catch an episode of Bear's show Get Out Alive. It was a busy night on the scanner so I only managed to catch a couple of bits but the tip really stuck in my craw.

The tip was that you need to insulate yourself from the ground when you sleep.

Now that is great stuff but what they show next is some dude throwing out the ol'blue tarp and then throwing his WallyWorld sleeping bag on top and crawling in... This is unsat.

So here is my 1,000 words or less on sleeping on the ground,

Sleeping on the ground is awesome! I should add, if you know what you are doing.

In a perfect world you are all geared up and ready to go. That means ground pad, bivy bag and sleeping bag. That doesn't mean that you can't do without any one of those items. We will get into that after we discuss what is the difference between good and bad regarding those items.

Ground Pads

Why you need one?

The ground is cold, you won't heat it up... ever. You have a sleeping bag you say? Sleeping bags work on loft or simply put they work on the amount of air they can trap in their filler. What do you think happens when you put your body weight on that filler? That is right, you push the air out making it incapable of providing insulation.



There are a huge variety of ground pads, some are air filled but most are closed cell foam, some are short, others long, most are narrow and some are even cut to match your body, some are VERY expensive but rest assured most are very well priced.

I am going to admit that I don't have a much experience with the air fill variety after experiencing the old school ThermaRest 'self inflating' pad. The idea was that it had open cell foam enclosed in rubberized nylon. They were the cat's meow until you popped one or heaven forbid the damn thing lasted until the foam gave out and you had to blow it up! The reality was that they popped, like all the fucking time, they were heavy and worst of all they were cold.

You see, air has this ability to move heat. Typically that means away from you to something else that is colder. Our bodies are a typical 98.6 so everything is colder then us. They have attempted to combat this in the modern air pads by using foil to send that heat back. The new air pads are lighter, stronger and warmer... they are also way more expensive. Like starting at $150.. and that is a non starter for anyone but the most serious backpacker. I am going to get one, one day. In spite of my better judgment because I am getting older and the ground is getting harder.

What I have consistently rock is a closed cell Ensolite Pad,



While that isn't a photo of my pad it is about the same condition, I've been carrying it since I was 12. I've slept in the snow, mountains, meadows and even a parking lot filled with broken glass. They are light, easy to clean, cheap and if you can get one wet I'm interested to know how you did it.

Believe that for the money it is where it's at but don't get crazy and think that all blue pads are the same, sadly they are not. The ones they sell at WalMart suck a dick. The stuff they are made out of isn't tough enough and you can literally pop the individual air bubbles leaving you laying on a thin layer of whatever they are made of.

Currently you can get a USGI Ensolite pad with attached binding tape for $6-$15 at the local surplus store, they are fantastic... well they are thin but they are wider then most commercial pads and that is fantastic.

You might want two if you are getting old (like me), a side sleeper (like me) or are on snow.

The next step up is the Ridge Rest pad,



The idea is that they capture more air for less pad. I never weighed one against the other but I can tell you that the Ridge Rest was wore out and the old Ensolite was still rocking. Yes you read that right, I wore a Ridge Rest out.

There is something cool about the Ridge Rest, they are making them with a foil coating on one side. Totally good for sending the heat of the ground back at it (desert rat wisdom) or your own body heat back to you.

They also make some accordion folding shit... I got my Ridge right before they came out so I miss that trend. You still see them around and they are littering the shelves. Word to the wise, they tear where they fold.

Bivy Bags

WTF?

From Wiki Bivouac Sack

A bivouac sack (also known as a bivy, bivvy, or bivi) is an extremely small, lightweight, waterproof shelter, and an alternative to traditional tent systems. It is used by climbers, mountaineers, hikers, ultralight backpackers, soldiers and minimalist campers.[1] The bivouac sack has a larger, similar counterpart, called a bivouac shelter.

Why you need one?

The ground is always wet, even in the desert. Wet gear is heavier then it needs to be and fails to insulate. Nuff said.

I don't have very much experience with bivy bags, I only recently got into using one after scoring a USGI model for $40.



I wanted to get away from tents and into something lighter weight that was also smaller. So far I have yet to be rained on in my bivy exclusively as I hide under trees when it gets shitty. It did snow 2' foot on me in it without any cover.. wasn't bad aside from having to kick around to keep the snow from building up, once I learned to put my boot next to my face to keep the cold wet gortex off my face.

I will tell you that this is one Gucci bit of kit if their is any interest I will do a full write up.

And that is enough for one night.

[hjmoosejaw]

Good post TG. I was thinking of getting the military 5/pc (two carrying bags) sleep system.

[thatGuy]

too heavy HJ.. way too heavy.

Let me get into sleeping bags

[JohnyMac]

Great write-up TG! 

I am sorry to say that I had never heard of a bivy bag until I read your article. I DuckDuckgo'd it and read the same Wiki you posted. I wonder how much moisture they keep inside making a warm bag colder as the night progressed.

Then I ran across the Bivouac shelter. It looks a little like the old tube tent but seems more practical. Here is a link to one. http://www.rothco.com/general/index.cfm/Description/GI-Type-Camouflage-Bivouac-Shelter/fuseaction/itemdetail/item/944/subcat/171/prodid/108/from/left
There is no weight listed though. If I had the $90- to burn I would order one and try it out.

Yup I had a the blue closed cell foam ground mat. I think I bought it from Kelty back in the early '70's. It lasted for years and I finally used it under our coil spring mattress in our V-Berth on the boat. It seemed to keep the condensation down (Code for mildew) under the mattress.   


 

[thatGuy]

Cold air really brings out the moisture in your breath so on that night with all the snow I was able to give it a good testing out. A couple of times the air was so muggy in the sack that I literally thought I was drowning and had to 'air out.' That could be because snow was piling up and I may have become incased.. look it up, mountaineers die of carbon monoxide all the time.

The outer skin of my sleeping bag was moist but the insulation was perfectly dry (my sleeping bag isn't water proof it's your typical nylon over poly) and I was able to brush the ice off within a couple of minutes of being out of the bag. What was the coolest part is that it was only the hood of my bag exposed to my breath. 

I've got a buddy who swears by those bivy shelters but unless there is a real weight savings compared to a tent I'm not buying. The commercial models are coming it a 2-3lbs while the tents are consistently getting under 3lbs.

And that is because at the end of the day I've got a waterproof sack to live in and if I predict that weather will be worse then I can stand in it I take a tarp to rig overhead. Fact of the matter is you are going to be wet one way or the other, what matters is to what degree.. I've been wet in tents, ponchos, tarps and town, hell I even got wet in an RV once.

I will offer a little glimpse in to the mind of a mad man here,

What got me going on the bivy thing was that I have spent too many hours looking for a two person sized flat spot to set a tent upon. Once you get out past the improved camp sites and get into the proper wilderness you will find that they are very rare while the world is full of great spots no bigger than a man. If I don't need to set up poles and nylon my choices expand radically.

After all it's about getting a good nights sleep 

[crudos]

Great thread!

[thatGuy]

Sleeping Bags

Derp, but I got a woobie..



And you think nothing of spooning with dudes under it 

There are many shapes and sizes of sleeping bags, for the perpose of this discussion we will only be talking about mummy bags because the square bottomed, none hooded cotton bullshit is just that... bullshit.

The point is keeping warm so we want something that is pretty close to the same shape as us with a hood that can be cinched down to 'they killed Kenny' size.



Now you can get carried away, my buddy has a bag that is skin tight. He loves it but if he didn't sleep like the dead he would notice that you can't move in the damn thing! Remember that there is a fine line between a close fit and too tight. I'm using a bag that I can touch a foot in.. so I can put fresh socks on while still in my bag I also like to buy my bags 'tall' even though I am not, it allows me to put a quart bottle of boiling water wrapped in a pair of pants at my feet in the winter.

So poly or down (fuck cotton)? Great question, there is no perfect answer to that question. Poly dries quick but down compresses smaller and doesn't lose it's loft when stuffed like poly. You catch that? Poly can't be left compressed or else your winter back will become your summer bag. Poly bags are usually slightly heavier too but they do dry quickly. Now they are making a new kind of down called 'Dry Down' thatGirl has one and it is yet to be tested but believe that she will get that fucker soaking wet one day and we will let you know! So what is the problem with that? Wet shit is heavy shit and believe that as good of a conductor of heat air is it doesn't have a thing on water. If you bag is wet you are cold, doesn't matter what it is.

There is some construction notes that you might want to notice too, some bags have a baffle at the hood and zipper to cover the gap and some bags have staggered bats of insulation so you don't get a thin spot.. both are good things.

Some bags shells are made of Silicone Impregnated Nylon (Sil-Nylon) and you would think that is cool but it actually isn't. You want your bag to breath because if it doesn't you will sweat like a mofo and at that point it doesn't matter how 'water proof' the shell is.. right?

To touch on what HJ was looking at,

The 4 piece USGI sleep system is a pretty neat idea if well employed but it takes a fair amount of use and attention to use it correctly. Think of the questions that could be asked like, is the jungle bag heavy enough if the temp comes down to 50F, if it isn't do I need to take it and the liner, oh shit what did I do with the liner, why am I carrying an artic rated bag when the over night low is 60F, why is this thing so large, why am I always cold in this fucking thing, why is it only made to work for 4 hours, why the fuck does it weight 10lbs and most importantly if it was worth carrying why do dudes CHOSE to spoon instead of carrying it even when they are mechanized?

Remember that there are a lot of great options out there,



So you've got a pad or two, a bivy bag or shelter and a good sleeping bag, you're ready to go right? No so fast tiger.. do you know how to use that stuff?

Couple of quick tips,

Don't ever get into your bag wet or in wet cloths
As a matter of fact the less clothing you wear the warmer you will be, trust
Stay dry and keep your gear dry, I know this is the third time I mention this but trust it is x3 important
If you put your pad in the bivy you won't roll off of it
If you roll off do yourself a favor and roll back on coz you're gonna freeze
If it is hot you can sleep ON your bag in your bivy
If you can't get in and out, scratch your feet or roll over then your gear is too small
Don't leave poly compressed
As a matter of fact don't leave any of it compressed
The higher the loft number on down the better
Eat right before you go to bed if it is cold, digesting makes heat
Don't get in cold, believe that you won't warm up, run in place, do pushups

[JohnyMac]

I agree with TG on many of his points ESPECIALLY, buying a sleeping bag bigger (Longer) than you need. My first good bag was down. The one I have now is poly. I forget what rating it has but I have used it down to freezing without any issues.

I would just like to add two things that worked for me to what TG has written

I am a pillow guy. I use to have a small flannel pillow case safety pinned to the head of my sleeping bag. I brought a blow up pillow with me and once blown up stick it in the pinned pillow case. Yup it stayed in place all night.

Last, we would try to refrain from drinking any liquids after dinner. This helped with those mid-night calls of nature.

Thanks TG for knowledge on this subject.
 

[thatGuy]

I've made a little bag about 5" round and 16"-18" long that I put my clothing into and it serves as a pillow.

You know that water bottle that I put at my feet... when it gets cool I drink it and 'refill' it with warm eh... liquid...

It also seems like the ratings are bull, thatGirl uses her 0F bag all year round and I have been using a 20F bag summer, winter, spring and fall. We overnight at least a dozen nights a year below freezing. Last New Years I remember crawling out of my bag to go throw up out the door of the tin shed we were lodging in. When I got back to my bag the thermometer on my zipper said 10F.

In the winter I do upgrade my pad situation by adding a USGI pad which is wider to cover the cold spots on the edge of my Ensolite and I add a piece of Reflectix between the pads and sleeping bag. You could always add a space blanket over or go with one of those Mylar bivy sacks that SOL is making. 

I haven't been cold but for the couple of ounces that a space blanket weighs I don't leave home without one.

[JohnyMac]

TG wrote, "Last New Years I remember crawling out of my bag to go throw up out the door of the tin shed we were lodging in." Bad Foie Gras? 

[APX808]

Great posts TG

I would like to do a few comments:

Is highly recommended to carry the sleeping bag inside your pack to avoid it getting wet, in small backpacks that's impossible.

@JohnyMac, as TG suggested just put clothes inside the sleeping bag compression bag and use that as pillow.

As a matter of fact the less clothing you wear the warmer you will be, trust

Yup, that's true, although I found that in extreme cold conditions I was freezing anyway so I slept with some clothing.
Also in tactical situations you should sleep dressed because you could need to haul ass and defend yourself, and do that naked must suck real bad.

[JohnyMac]

I use to put clothes in a small bag but they became damp over the night. Also my pillow was lumpy 

My usual bed time attire till it got down to the teens was a pair of boxer shorts and a t-shirt. Once it got down into the teens or if I knew it was or, was going to snow I wore long undies. Call of nature at O' dark 30 in boxers when it is 18 degrees out and snow blowing around your ankles is a bitch. 

When it was cold I wore a knit cap too as I hated to close up the head of my mummy bag. 

APX, good point on being fully dressed when in a war zone. Bugging out fast has a whole different meaning. 


 

[hjmoosejaw]

too heavy HJ.. way too heavy.

Let me get into sleeping bags

Weight is a concern of mine too TG. One thing considered was that the military sleep system is two sleeping bags. My bug out scenario would more than likely be 4 people, initially, myself and 3 females. We would all be carrying packs, mine being the largest. Each pack, while having a little something for each person to survive with that one pack, will be geared to contribute to the greater good of the group. My bag is geared more toward the shelter and protection, of the group. That's why I figured with the sleep system, I would be covering the needs of two of us. (maybe even three, if the bivy bag is utilized for one person)  With that in mind, let me know if there are still drawbacks, or suggestions. Thanks!  

[thatGuy]

Huge drawbacks HJ, the USGI sleep system isn't two of the same bag,

Green Patrol Bag:
?Good to Temperatures +30? by itself
?Reversible double-pull slider
?Slide fastener self repairs if jammed or snagged
?Hood includes nylon drawcord and barrel lock
?Measures 84 inches x 30 inches tapering to a generous foot box


Black Intermediate Cold Weather Bag:
?Good to Temperatures to -10? by itself
?No cold spots
?Generous foot box contains 2X the insulation
?Quilted collar prevents air drafts
?Hood includes nylon drawcord and barrel lock
?Measures 84 inches x 30 inches tapering

So you've got a nut roaster and a ball chiller and a dry sack for 11.5lbs and you get to carry it?

HJ, buddy if I was you and it was my intention to shoulder the majority of the load I would look hard at a lighter solution.

For $25 you can pick up a 3 season bag that is 3.3lbs. Cheaper, lighter faster.

http://www.easy-camp.com/en/Products/SleepingBags/Cosmos/Cosmos350.aspx

Look at the photo of the 2lbs set up I posted, we can get pretty close to that if we are willing to think outside the bun.

Tyvek house wrap tarp and bivy, Ensolite pad 3.3lbs bag... I'd bet it doesn't come in over 5lbs each.

And we haven't even begun to address the idea that every member of your party ought to be self sustained. Don't get me wrong I am not suggesting that everyone carries a full weight stove and water filter but they need to each have the means to cook, clean, sleep, shelter and clean water. As example when we go out everyone carries their own preferred method of cleaning water, the wife and I carry Iodine my buddies girl carries AquaPure tabs and my buddy carries a water filter. Ideally we filter water but if he falls into a hole and we have to go on without him then we still have our own means albeit lighter and less desirable then the pump.

Don't try to be a hero brother, it will grind you down and you won't be able to be there when they need you, believe that. 

[hjmoosejaw]

Thanks for the input TG! I agree with the point that each person carry some of each of the supplies. Their packs are like that. Each one has water, first aid, ability to cook, food, fire starting materials, etc. Just some are more geared to certain things. Like the water filter in your friends pack, but tablets in everybody else's. While each of us have first aid items, my EMT daughter has a more involved medical variety in her bag, for example. I think I will be looking more into the sleeping equipment you recommended. I do have to cut down on the weight some. With the wife's health problems, and my youngest daughter, having some of her own health problems, I will have to carry more of the load. Hopefully, if the situation arises, I wouldn't have to make very long treks at one time. Each of them packing their own sleep gear, is a good idea. Again, thanks for the input TG!

[hjmoosejaw]

I'm 6'3", bout a deuce and a half. What lightweight sleeping bag would you recommend TG?

[thatGuy]

The Cosmos 350 I recommended is 6'8"x29.5" wide.. you might fit in it.

What's you width at the shoulder?

On a lark you could by one and give it a try, it will work for one of the girls so why not for $25?

[thatGuy]

Once again I am watching Get Out Alive and the challenge is to start a fire, catch an ember on tinder fungus and then carry that spark across a river, start a second fire from the tinder fungus and light a torch.

Sounds pretty good, they have fire steel and everyone of them is striking with the knife... not only is it poor form but it's the wrong way. When using fire steel hold the tinder and the knife with the same hand against the ground. Press that hand down hard while drawing the steel against the knife.

The tinder and the knife stay still and that lets you throw the most spark into the tinder bundle without pushing it around. 

[hjmoosejaw]

What's you width at the shoulder?

20 1/2" 

Yeah, good idea about giving it to one of my girls, if it doesn't fit me.  Can't beat the price.

[JohnyMac]

Never used a fire starting steel.

I have only used a piece of flint, char cloth and a "knuckle" steel.

Have ready dried  twigs of all different sizes, from straw size up to thumb diameter size.

Kneel down and build a small birds nest out of dried grass. I have lit fires with dried leaves but it seems that grass catches faster.

Put a small piece of char cloth on top of the flint then strike the flint with your steel using a striking blow. An ember will start to glow in the char cloth. Blow to red hot and drop into the middle of the grass birds nest. Pick up and blow gently to encourage the grass to ignite from the char cloth.

If you got smoke pick up the blowing velocity and the birds nest will catch fire.

Place on ground and starting with small twigs to larger build a tee-pee over the burning nest. You now have the beginning's of a nice fire.

To make char cloth lighter. Put in an empty Altoids can 100% cotton fabric. Fill her up but not to much that you cannot close the can.

Once the fabric is in can, close the lid and with a nail or tip of your knife make a small hole on top of the lid of the Altoids can.

Now put the Altoids can on the stove and turn the fire on to medium. After a few minutes smoke will come out of your hole. Continue cooking till the smoke stops (10-15 min) coming out of the hole. Turn off your heat source and walk away. Come back in an hour or so and open the can and you have char.

Use pieces about the size of your pinky finger nail on top of the flint to start an ember.
 

[Jeremy Knauff]

When we were in the field (except in the desert, of course) we would pile up foliage like pine needles or leaves, and lay a poncho over it. It provided insulation and some sweet padding. 

[JohnyMac]

Yupper Jeremy.

During my long hunter trekking period I use to do that.

I would look for two down easy to move trees and lay them parallel about 30" wide. Then pile stones had the head and foot.

Once done I would take a coat or blanket and gather leaves from the top of the leaf bed on the forest floor and drag them over to the outlined bed. Repeat till the leaves were over flowing my bed. Then place a l pile or two on the side.

Laid down my blanket folded in half. Then took the extra leaves from the side of the bed and put on top of the blanket. This helped when it got REALLY cold and frost or snow were imminent that night.

The challenge was trying to wiggle into bed - Between the blanket half's without disturbing the layer of leaves on top of the blanket.

If things were to get really cold, I had a cotton bag with a draw string. Just before I went to bed I would put warmed rocks in the bag (Warm NOT hot) maybe in the 115 - 125 degree range and put in the foot of the bed. The leaves, cotton bag and blanket would keep the heat in for hours.

Doing this I would spend a tolerable night in the wild.

PS: DO NOT make this bed near your camp fire! 

[RONSERESURPLUS]

Lots of Great Write up Idea's and I was happy to see it! So Much Emphisis on weapons, when in the SHTF, tired folks who did not sleep well are not an asset? I see a Lot of good ways to do it and I do Have a Bivy Cover for my Bag and I have used the GI issue Green Foam Pads they are OK, but not Great, I have done the Pine needles deal, but ya need to make sure it's a thick coat of them and then a cover on top as they get strachy quick?  Lots of ways to do it but one best try before the deal is on them!

Ron l

[thatGuy]

Yeah Ron the native bedding kinda sucks... a little.

In a permanent camp I don't see the harm in adding some richness to the mattress but if you are E&E'ing you are not only committing yourself to taking the time to collect and arrange that shit but think of the sign you are leaving behind when you collect that stuff!

I have in my years found that it is best to carry a couple of pads so that I can just roll out my kit and sleep. If I choose to do so on a 'durable' surface like a slab of rock I leave no sign that I was there, in a dry year the grass will show my print for a couple of days but no more then a week, in a wet year.. never had one, couldn't say. 

But it is good to know that you can make a pile of dry leaves or needles and wiggle your way into it and sleep soundly. Like JMac I have done so and with God's will I won't have to again in my life.

[JohnyMac]

TG Wrote:
 Like JMac I have done so and with God's will I won't have to again in my life.

Yeah, ain't that true! I once woke up with dozens of tic's all over me! My bro thought that was the funniest thing known to man! I stood there butt naked while we both investigated every sq. inch of my body...Did I mention it was freaken cold?