Author Topic: A proposed system for classifying citizens Skill levels with the tactical Rifle  (Read 930 times)

Offline Erick

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All,

I have found that at times when we talk about "guys we know".. that we "went shooting with" .. "great shooter" etc we often find ourselves into this needlessly lengthy description were we think he may be in shooting skill.
Same when we assess the training level of our own guys.. So I propose 4 skills levels to use as a shorthand to accurately describe citizen skill levels with the Tactical Carbine.

1 - Skill Level 1: An individual owns a Tactical rifle (usually an AR15 but others ok), a reasonable modicum of magazines. He knows how to load the rifle.
He may not be particularly quick or smooth about it. at times maybe even make an error on occasion but generally gets it done.
Under low stress situations he can aim and hit targets and shoot with some reasonable speed..
Though an increase in speed may widen the spread of his groups to an unacceptable level.
In other words he can only have a high hit probability in a low stress /low speed environment, shooting at somewhat slow pace.

He generally does not own a battle belt or chest rig or if he does does not practice with it. Skill level 1 may only be trained to shoot well under the most comfortable shooting positions. From the free standing he will have minimal accuracy.
This likely describes 90% of citizen shooters.

My description is as not meant in a judgmental way. Someone with Skill Level 1 is still far above the unarmed public and in a favorable situation, can still accomplish some basic but important defensive tasks.

2 - Skill Level 2. This is the level of skill of your graduate of one or two of your standard Carbine classes as offered by many commercial schools..
He can execute magazine changes without difficulty. He knows how to quickly shoot from the free unsupported standing (in addition to sitting/kneeling/prone) with some degree of routine and significantly improved hit probability vs a skill level 1.

He may struggle with most malfunctions clearances, but he knows these procedures exist and can sometimes clear the easiest mal functions on his own without help.

He knows the difference between an Emergency reload and a Tactical reload though he may still struggle a bit with both.
His shoots faster than Skill level 1 while still maintaining a reasonable degree of hit probability, He has been exposed to different shooting positions and has trained with his rig.
He is competent to configure a rifle to his liking and he can reload his rifle in the dark (though he may still find it this challenging on occasion)

IMO this is also a skill level typical for most non combat arms active duty folks in Army and USMC (Navy and USAF outside of unique organizations is often much lower) or a combat arms guy who has been out a few years and has not kept up with his rifle skills.
Some of he lower end SWAT teams may field members at this level.

3 - Skill Level 3

At this level we have someone who has repeatedly and recently practiced to exploit cover. He knows how to pie off angles, how to pop up and quickly shoot from behind cover ( or concealment) or along ts edges.

He has practiced to shoot under conditions of stress and/or being heavily winded..He still knows how to shoot and hit targets at common tactical ranges when his face is covered in sweat and his breathing is labored.

This shooter can transition easily and quickly between different firing positions, prone, kneeling, crouch, and standing..He knows how to properly exploit windows and similar openings.....All his weapons handling is routine. He has no problems at all reloading his rifle in the dark.
He can clear all common malfunctions with confidence.
He knows what he likes for sights beyond irons... his shooting OODA loop is also shortened vs Skill level 2.

His emergency reloads and tactical reloads are routine and 2nd nature.

Skill level 3 generally requires some significant round counts to achieve and maintain.
.
IMHO this skill level likely describes most members of the better SWAT Teams and most (but not all!) active duty infantry in Army and USMC and sometimes the better members of USAF security forces.

4- Skill Level 4. This is the "Tactics" portion.

This individual knows how to execute a...break contact ... what a support-by-fire element is, what a Wedge is vs skirmish line ho to execute bounding overwatch,....,what it means when the team leader yells "Limit! Limit! Limit!" at the assault team,... the difference between a hasty and a deliberate ambush,.. the difference between an attack and a raid..what a herringbone formation is ... etc, etc, etc..

This is also a skill typical of Army and USMC Infantry and the better USAF security forces.

Skill Levels 1-3 were all about individual skills.
Skill level 4 is a collective skill and needs collective training.

Also I think Skill level 4 probably ought to be broken out into a "troop level" and a "Leader Level". Some folks know how to execute a wedge and break contact etc but mostly on Order.... but are not 100% on when you would employ it vs other choices.. they can execute but need an order to execute the correct drill.

Quickly deciding when to break contact under fire or under which conditions to decide to fight through this is an additional skill.. So a Skill level 4 at the leader level would include the ability to lead patrols, conduct troop Leading Procedures, the ability to properly read terrain, make quick judgements on force ratios vs your opponent to inform his calls etc etc.

Interestingly here is where we get non-hierarchical in these skill levels.

You do not need to be at a skill level 3 for your tactical rifle to learn and be effective at Skill level 4 tasks, skill level 2 is probably sufficient.

In order to have an effective tactical team at a reasonable level just being at level 2 in weapons skill is probably sufficient for team members as long as they know how to execute Level 4 collective tasks at the non leader level and you have a fireteam leader who can execute Skill level 4 at the leader level.
Also the Fire team leader does not necessarily have to be at weapons handling skill level 3 to lead a team if he has Skill level 4 at the leader level.

Another wrinkle though is this: If you MUST fight Goblins alone for any reason...which for citizens is IMO a greater possibility than for the military..especially left of boom*.. Skill level 3 tasks are more critical than skill level 4.. Because Skill level 4 tasks are collective tasks and so you cannot conduct them by yourself.
When serving as a member of a survival team right-of-boom ...Skill level 4 task will likely become more critical then maxing out your rifle skill to level 3.


Where do you think you fit?

If using skill level 4... then also specify additionally where you are purely in weapons handling (1-3)
Possible skill levels one could have under this proposed system are:

1
2
3
2/4
2/4L
3/4
3/4L

..but be honest with yourself and the board. If everyone ranks here themselves at 3 or higher then I know honesty is in short supply. ;)

DISCUSS

PS: In order to keep things from being needlessly complex I have not included a discussion of nightfiring/nightfighting skill levels. This will be a sperate thread at another time.
PS2: This is intended purely a shorthand for skill level. Not about your physical fitness. I think we all understand that lack of physical fitness can make skill level 4 tasks nearly impossible if you attempt them for more than couple of minutes and that folks at a high skill level say "3" will generally have as a minimum some decent degree physical fitness levels.
This may also be a seperate thread.
PS3: * "Left-of-boom"=Before a collapse situation. "Right-of-Boom" = Society has collapsed and you are in a blatant and obvious without "rule of law" situation
« Last Edit: November 22, 2018, 04:02:06 AM by Erick »
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Offline Jackalope

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    I would guess that I'm a 2, with a tactical rifle, and a 2+ with a battle rifle, handgun and maybe a 3 with a tactical shotgun.  The AR platform isn't my preferred firearm; I'm mostly old school, i.e. H&K 91's and Uzi carbines.  Along with night fighting, you also need to consider different environments, i.e. urban versus woodlands versus desert.  Long ranges versus CQB, which require different skill sets.  Personally, I'd prefer hitting targets from a mile away with a .50BMG,  than on a SWAT team and doing CQB.  And regarding goblins, I'll probably not use a tactical rifle for defense, but rather use a tactical shotgun filled with buckshot and slugs in conjunction with a pistol.

Offline Kbop

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I like it - even i can understand it.
I would put myself at a 2.
tactics, may need its own scale. 
your self, two people, 5, 10, larger?  maybe a scale A-D
so your rifle skill then tactics like 2/B for example.

cool though!   :bravo:


Offline Erick

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1) I would guess that I'm a 2, with a tactical rifle, and a 2+ with a battle rifle, handgun and maybe a 3 with a tactical shotgun.  The AR platform isn't my preferred firearm; I'm mostly old school, i.e. H&K 91's and Uzi carbines. 
2)  Personally, I'd prefer hitting targets from a mile away with a .50BMG,  than on a SWAT team and doing CQB. 
3)And regarding goblins, I'll probably not use a tactical rifle for defense, but rather use a tactical shotgun filled with buckshot and slugs in conjunction with a pistol.

Brother, this is good discussion.... please allow me to respectfully try explain a bit more. :D

1) A Battle rifle is a legit weapon and the scale should apply to both. The skill level is not intended to be platform dependent. However  a handgun or shotgun are really more like in house anti burglary defensive firearms and they are too limited to be primary weapons carry in a tactical situation.

2) Neither long range shooting nor even CQB (though its closer) are what I would call properly "tactics" in the classic sense.. tactics is employing fire and maneuver in a team to close with and destroy the enemy. Its hard to explain as its late and I am tired.. and i realize my delineation and distinction here is a bit weak.. as some will argue that both still do employ maneuver to a point... but you cannot do fire and maneuver on your own... that the situation you describe makes me think of  a single man civilian defnse.. which is not "Tactics ".. Long range fire could be a support by fire element (If in conjunction with a maneuver/assault element) but I dont think thats what you meant.. and CQB is also just very limited and if u do it yourself its def not "tactical"

3) left of boom when defending a domicile..  in the domicile this is sufficient. Not sure if I would call it tactics though if I am facing a burglar at night in the living room... But the flexibility of the tactical rifle enables it to be your primary or even only fire arm you carry on patrols as its flexible enough can fulfill every role except sniping. One issue with shotguns is that the ammo price precludes to amount of training f r most everyone, that is needed to attain a high level skill. And again not being rifled is a huge limitation as you cannot switch from 10 yards to 150 yards in an instant.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2018, 09:19:18 PM by Erick »
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Offline Erick

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I like it - even i can understand it.
I would put myself at a 2.
tactics, may need its own scale. 
your self, two people, 5, 10, larger?  maybe a scale A-D
so your rifle skill then tactics like 2/B for example.

cool though!   :bravo:
Kbop:

Yes, "Tactics" implies a group larger than 1. .. the smallest group a two-man Buddy team can employ fire and maneuver, this is IMO a very realistic team size post-apoc.

Though a buddy team lacks the size needed to field the moving parts (support-by-fire element, flank protection/reserve and assault element) to conduct even just the "Hasty attack".
« Last Edit: November 21, 2018, 09:24:12 PM by Erick »
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Offline Double D

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I think this is an important topic and one that triggers some fears in the prepper community. Standards mean that some don’t meet the standards.

It is very difficult to find people you can trust enough to train with at the 3 and 4 level. Once you’ve trained at that level, you understand the severe limitations of having NOT trained at that level. At the moment, I would self rate as a 3/4L, having just completed the Max Velocity Tactical Combat Leader Course. I had an opportunity to practice the “L” skills over the course of a week against live OPFOR using a 13 man squad. I’ve done similar force on force classes using UTM simunitions. This time we used “airsim” AR-15 gas rifles using 6mm BBs. It was a very intense class. We planned the missions, we rehearsed different phases and drills and we executed.
   There is something beyond joy to discover the enemy during your leader’s recon and maneuver three teams into an assault and support by fire position for the assault cycle. I led a raid but there were also ambushes and various attacks and defense against enemy QRF. We did some basic CASEVAC and EPW tasks. There is much more to learn but there is no question the skills have value. I also learned how to be a rifleman. That is not so easy by the time you are older. “Just shut up and be a Joe.” Good advice I heard a few times in WV, the cardio state.
   The MVT Tactical Manual should be owned with multiple copies in your cache. You will need training to illustrate the manual. If you plan on defending someone or something you must have this or equivalent training IMO. We may not have enough guys for a squad or even a team, but we need to be working towards that.
   My mission was against a group of bad guys operating in our AO who were reported to be attacking local citizens. I understand the sentiment that we don’t need offensive capabilty. I disagree strongly. If you can’t patrol outside the wire, you don’t even own the wire. I’m not saying guys have to be ready for assaulting Castle Wolfenstein, although that would be cool. You do need to understand the assault cycle and how to run teams against supporting positions. This takes practice. Do you live near houses? Then you should probably know how to Fight In Someone’s House.
   As Erick said, these levels are perishable. I was hurting after training but man, I hope I can do it again. If you seriously can’t train to that level, hang out with guys who will. Be the intel guy. Help plan the missions and identify the threat. Help guys shoot better. Buy lots of mags and ammo. Don’t doubt for a moment that training is relevant. When the shit show goes live, the bad guys are going to gang up right quick. They do this instinctively. You can and should learn these skills. The team skills are the hardest to learn. Communicating in chaos is very difficult. Giving orders when the enemy throws a curveball is something most will never do.
   Left of boom is now. I’m not sure I can get 12 other guys together here for a beer. Moving right, now things happen and fear creates interest. Maybe give some thought to a training plan with your neighbors. Get some training to share when the time comes. You’re gonna need a bigger gang to win.

Offline Erick

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DD:

Good comment.

I've seen the curriculum for Max's Leadership course and it appears quite effective and being a a recent graduate, as you are, certainly should confer one as 4L (especially since that course also has prerequsites)

Reminds me a lot of (Army) Officer candidate school and PLDC (An old Army NCO development course), they are much longer than Maxs course ....but unless I really miss my guess he probably manages to confer just as much information in a week as they do in multiple weeks.

BTW based on your screename I believe know you, we met at MVT 4 (?) years ago and you made a good impression on me.

I did not mention MVT in my original post because I know due to location its not a realistic option for most on this board.. also I did not intend to make this thread to be an MVT ad.. :hiding:.
But I do highly recommend it to everyone here and on occasion still send someone their way.
...

For example if your skill level is 1 ...with luck the very first team combat course (not sure what he calls it these days) ,may potentially take you from a 1 to a 2/4 and if the first one doesnt do it, the second one possibly will especially if folowed by a  Patrol class.

Also, not everyone has the aptitude and personality to be a "L" and thats totally ok.

I think it is realistic though for everyone here to strive for an eventual 2/4 rating.
A couple formal Carbine courses will get you to 2 in weapons.

If you are  a "1" right now, there are things you can do to get to a 2.
The jump from 1 to a 2 is easier than from a 2 to a 3.

And when you are  a 2... can do a lot of dry runs on someones property in conjunction with published training materials (manuals + youtube) to get to the level of being able to understand basic orders in a tactical environment and this may confer have some hope to be able to execute the most basic fire and movement.

But no pressure folks.. Small steps ... assess where you are at (and do so honestly..  :hiding: on several occasions where I took some some new folks to  tactical rifle range, they showed themselves to be a 1...barely.. but sometimes by their talk you'd think they were a solid 2.. this is typical and no shame... sometimes folks dont know what they dont know..... we are all brothers here trying to help each other out with no Ego) 
....then take steps to the next level.

Ok folks.. lets see some more discussion.. Where do you honestly think you are and why .. its ok not to be at a high level... just asses yourself honestly.
:dance:
« Last Edit: November 22, 2018, 07:10:37 AM by Erick »
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Offline JohnyMac

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As is reported by many here I am a level 2. I suspect I could move to the next level if I had someone to run drills with on a regular basis which means lives close by. Not an excuse just a fact of life.

Because I do not have a group (Even one person would be great)I am thinking my situation requires me to become more proficient in long range, sniper type shooting.

Great discussion gentlemen  :cheers:
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Offline Currahee

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I have been in the internet miltia/prepper world for a while and have seen several attempts at standardizing training and tactics. It seems like a good thing to be sure but they all failed because well , we have different resources and motives and motivation. My belief is the best thing that be done is get friends together and develope a few standardized drills and practice them.

I will also say that tactics are not just an group military thing. There is a huge spot between peaceful and open rebellion. Any one of us is more likely to be caught in a riot mass robbery with our families in tow than we will be conducting a hasty ambush. I say that having written extensively on the latter.

Does your wife know what to do if a group of thugs decide to flash rob the pizzaria? Have you practiced it?

To the point of the thread I would say that I’m a three, and strive to create the opportunity so that most of my friends are as well. We practice at the 4 level a couple of times a year.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 04:39:03 PM by Currahee »
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Offline CJS06

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I like the concept of the standardized system.  The only shortcoming that I see is the true self assessment and resulting rating based off of it.   I do like Kbops additional categories to the tactics rating.

For myself, I train regularly, both on my individual skill development and as a small unit. Our small unit training is mainly in up to 4 man teams with occasional 8 man teams.  I try to balance my training between the two each year.  For example this year I have been to 18 days of individual training and only 8 days of team ( with 4 more coming early this December). Last year the split was 12 days individual and 16 team.  These are organized training events that I travel to.  Unfortunately there is not very much quality training available locally. I do try to continue to train the concepts as much as possible while back at home.  I am currently in the process of of working on a relocation out to the friendlier Western states where I travel to do much of my training. 

As with Curahee I try to bring opportunities to my local group. I have been attempting to organize local events but attendance has been fair at best.  This year I did 8 days of training and had very little consistency in attendance.  I organized 2 days of shipboard CQB along with a local friend in USCG MRST. This was a hit and got great attendance but I think it had more to do with the novelty of getting to train on the Battleship.  Other than 2 guys ( a former Ranger and a former Marine) few of the guys have any formal training as a unit.  The local training that we have been able to do has been mainly individual skill development. 

For many of the guys I know in this region, they take a pistol or a carbine class from someone local then watch lots of Magpul videos. They fall into a Level 2 category at best with a long stretch to Level 3. The problem lies with the commitment to continue to develop. The go the the flat range a shoot a "hunderd rds" a couple of times a year and thats where it ends. These are the guys that talk and dress and act like they are SFOD.  Maybe the use of a standard would give the bigger group something to base their skill level on and thereby something to work on incentivizing continued development.

Erick and Double D, the training provided by Max looks excellent. I do have getting to a class with Max in my plan for 2019. 

Chris