Are Submachine Guns Obsolete?

[CrystalHunter1989]

Military units around the world are increasingly making use of short-barrled, select fire rifles like M4 Carbine. This allows the operator to engage targets anywhere between 100-300 meters without worrying about the ballistic performance of his cartridge. The latest sub-gun design that I'm aware of is the Kriss Super V. It's big and heavy for a .45 ACP caliber weapon.

The earliest submachine guns were used by the Germans in WWI, during the Spring Offensive of 1918. These weapons (The Mauser C96 and the MP18) were given to the experimental Stormtrooper units, and proved highly effective in clearing trenches and fortifications.

During WWII, every nation had their own unique design: the Thompson, Sten, Sterling, PPSH-41 and 43, MP40, Suomi, etc. Even though other designs came along between 1950-1986, like the Uzi, Skorpion and MP5, most militaries were now focused on enhancing their assault rifles, either and M16 or AK-47 derivative.

The first example of an SBR being used in military applications was the Colt Commando (aka CAR-15), fielded by SF groups under the MACV-SOG banner in Vietnam. Numerous accounts from veterans of this elite task force show a disdain for 9mm submachine guns used before the advent of the CAR-15. From these experiences, military planners soon realized that rifle caliber weapons designed for enhanced portability and maneuverability would be a logical step forward. Even with the shorter, 11.5 inch barrel, the Commando was capable of hitting targets consistently at 300 meters, more than adequate for jungle and urban warfare.

The Soviets were soon implementing this philosophy with the AK-74 "Krinkov." Like the Colt Commando, it was first used by special operators, but now a days, even certain police forces are carrying them. In the United States, short-barrled weapons have become a common sight among SWAT and other law enforcement organizations.

Perhaps the greatest threat to submachine guns came from Belgium. The FN P90 is everything a bullpup rifle wants to be. Featuring a 50 round top-feeding magazine, and housing the entire firing mechanism in the main body, it is comparable in size  and weight to an MP5 while offering superior ballistic performance. If this technology could be enhance to chamber larger calibers, it would certainly question the necessity of any select-fire, pistol caliber weapon in a military role.

Within the next decade I think it's possible that we'll see production of these weapons decrease to a trickle. We're coming up with more efficient ways to utilize rifle calibers in smaller packages. This would allow militaries to further condense their arsenals, maintain satisfactory performance, and save money.

What say ye?

[thatGuy]

Personal opinion to follow.

I love the idea of a submachine gun.



New (H&K MP7A1)



The old (MP5)

I can't speak to the pros of subguns having only ever fondled them in the Class III shops but I can tell you that they are awesome and I swear they find the littlest dudes to hold them in the photos. No joke and MP5 will conceal in a coat but these things are expensive and restricted sales on top of being SBRs and Class III. Just wanted point that out and remind you that almost anyone can get an SBR.



MK18 Colt



Krinkov



Some hot chick that came up when I searched MK18.

[Colombo]

Obsolete? No more than bolt actions or revolvers, everything has its place or use. Someone trained in the use of a subgun is and will remain a serious threat. Someone who learned how to use a subgun from hollywood will be a nice bit of entertainment for a short while and then a source for some unattended kit. As for wrol I suspect an unsuppressed subgun will attract most of the video game trained badasses and secret squirels for a mile and also tell those who know, a little bit about the firers training.

[Boonedawg]

 Screw the mp5...I want grand pappy's Thompson.  Ask the Japs if those were obsolete weapons. You are spot on Colombo. You can tell right away when you hear someone fire if they know how to really operate a sub gun.

[special-k]

I want a Kriss Super V SBR with a can so bad I can't stand it.

[CrookedSights]

Nothings obsolete, it just goes out of style for awhile then comes back like herpes. They have their place as do SBR's.

[Dave_M]

My response from a similar thread about PCC's

Ever since we had both longarms and pistols, we've been looking for an, 'in-between'. Through the years these have come in many forms. Early forms were short muskets and rifles. Later on they were relatively low-powered rifles with revolving cylinders.

Pre and post WWI pistols with rifle stocks were the answer (like the C96 Mauser and later the BHP). Right around and during WWII the submachinegun was concurrently developed in many different nations with several different designs.

During WWII, the first sub and assault rifles were developed. The US wanted a new PDW. It is notable that the M1 carbine was initially thought up as a pistol. However, the learning curve of a pistol was too was steep so a short rifle was developed. Of course, we all know about the German STG-44.

Post WWII we got into the idea that very small rounds at a very high cyclic rate would be just as effective at close range as a rifle with a slower cyclic rate due to cumulative damage. The most extreme example of this is the American-180 (.22lr at 1200RPM with drums ranging in capacity from 165 to 275 rounds each).

Right around the same time, more modern designs were developed (the Uzi dates from 1950 and the MP5 from the mid-60's). These stayed in favor until the late 1990's/early 2000's. Since then, M4's and CQBR's have come more into favor for several reasons:
-Better long range capability
-Better ballistics at short range
-Reduced risk of collateral damage
-Overall more flexible platform which is easier to adapt to dynamic situations

These are the reasons why federal, state, and local entry teams have switched from MP5's to shorty M16's. It is conspicuous that new rounds and projectiles have been developed to increase lethality and effectiveness at both short and long range even when utilizing a short barrel (such as the Mk318 Mod 0 SOST 5.56)

The PDW/carbine continues to evolve and will do so long into the future. One of the reasons I dislike PCC's in general and full size, non-FA PCC's in particular is the following:
-Pistol rounds use a fast burning powder. Any rifling beyond maximum powder burn hinders, not helps, ballistics (this is obviously load-dependent)
-If you're going to shoot a target multiple times with a lower powered round (which is the intent) it makes sense to do so as fast as possible--this is where FA shines.

For example: When using something like an IMI Uzi with a 16" barrel and then SBR it to proper length (10.2") group sizes are reduced. This is because of the first point about fast powder and also because a shorter barrel of the same diameter is stiffer and therefore less prone to flexing.
[/long winded]

Yep. I don't see a point outside of FA. Even then (I own a registered FA Mac) it'll be the SBR AR first.

[mountainredneck2051]

why go 9mm or 45acp when i could go 5.56?

 if possible i will always take my firearms in a rifle caliber

[Dave_M]

if possible i will always take my firearms in a rifle caliber

Agreed.

Like the box o' truth is fond of saying:
Rifles are rifles. Pistols are pistols.

To quote another instructor:
Sure, pistols will work. Rifles will destroy.

[mountainredneck2051]

the only reason we invented pistols is because we can't carry rifles at all times

[luis545x39]

obsolete never.... altought not as versatile as an sbr

[Dave_M]

I don't know why they didn't do the M4 one handed, it's not hard.

Full-auto, one hand

[Kobalt]

For military and law enforcement No. For preppers mostly. Pilots and tank drivers need small guns that they can operate in confined spaces. Preppers could find uses but they are limited.

[NOLA556]

For military and law enforcement No. For preppers mostly. Pilots and tank drivers need small guns that they can operate in confined spaces. Preppers could find uses but they are limited.

good post spirit.  [URL=http://www.smileyvault.co

[RONSERESURPLUS]

Hello all, RON L here

While I do Like the Idea of SBR and have used my share, I do still Like and use the concept of a SMG in the same caliber Pistol I carry! I like the size and Feel of an SMG and for limited applications it still has use! I don't see this as all or none I Like many and use them all?


  RON

[Colombo]

Let me dust off the crystal ball here and add it to the following facts. Hundreds of thousands of parts kits are in country. A large number are subguns. There is an active and enthusiastic community of semi builders with the skill not only to rebuild these weapons but redesign the firing system to be U.S. legal. The full auto parts don't evaporate when these are built but the modifications prevent there easy use (are you gonna tell me the guy who made it can't "fix it"). Now add in the undocumented relics and trophies in the closets and attics around the country...

My prediction, wtshtf I fully expect to see more than a few not only hit the streets but many to be wielded with skill and effect. There's more than a few old timers out there who not only learned quick kill  but with a bit of a refresher would shine up that old skill set. Add in those without the collector snobbery and your gonna see these beasts sporting red dots, better irons and other upgrades aka "product improved". Also in the mix now are the so called PDWs and the modern poor mans version the 7.62 X 25 which when sporting soft or hollow points is no longer the ice pick it used to be. I also suspect there will be more than a few shooters of that old commie round that will keep a mag or two of ball on hand for the surprised look on the faces of wearers of soft body armor.

And now the completely speculative consideration. If there's no law but what we manage to hold on to, I'll be in my woods (yes they are mine, I spent the time, sweat, bug bites, injuries, and learned fieldcraft and am still learning) and I'll appreciate and consider any feedback as to the effectiveness of my pistol rounds and the accuracy, recoil and maneuverability of myself and my chosen weapon in the close terrain I prefer should I decide to employ them.

[Oldannyboy37]

Yes and no. There will always be a niche for a quick handling, short pistol caliber weapon for certain applications where muzzle flash or over penetration might be an issue, so in that regard no.
However, I feel that a carbine length rifle is a much more versatile and lethal weapon. Rifle rounds pack considerably more punch and range than even the manly .45acp so unless someone was needed a weapon that fired pistol rounds for whatever reason I don't see why a SBR or carbine wouldn't be a better choice.