Wobbly plants

[Jeremy Knauff]

It seems like some of my plants in my raised beds are wobbly...are some plants just that way, or is it a sign of poor root structure? (I ask because some are fine.)

[JohnyMac]

I first read this subject line as Noun and wanted to see what this plant was. Sorry

I get wobbly plants in area's that are shady and the roots have clearly not developed or gone deep enough. My tomato plants sometimes get wobbly when the plant is top heavy with fruit.

What kind of plants are wobbly?
 

[Jeremy Knauff]

LOL!

In this case, yellow squash. Some do, some don't, so it doesn't seem like it should be a soil issue, but my gardening skills aren't exactly the best in the world yet, so I very likely may be wrong.

For what it's worth?I have driven a garden stake about 2' below the bottom of the raised bed all over a 6" or so diameter circle around the plants to further loosen the soil under the bed, and when I first built the beds, I filled them with earthworms, so I know the soil is pretty loose. Also, these are still just babies?only about 8" tall.

[JohnyMac]

I have been using a tomato cage for my squash. It keeps the fruit off the ground and it's easier to pick.

[thatGuy]

I second everything John says, I'd suspect that the root system isn't developing as wildly as it coud but if the plant is healthy then its not worries.

This is the 'problem' bed? Is this the second planting of squash? How do they compair?

[Jeremy Knauff]

TG, it's the first planting. You're supposed to rotate out to something else after a season of squash because of nutrient depletion. I don't think the problem is the bed because some of the squash are doing fine, others, not so much. I can't figure it out on this one.

John, I am planning on using 2x2s (6) to run a lattice of large, soft twine at several levels so they have something to hang/grow on, but they aren't even big enough for that yet.

[Well-Prepared Witch]

I read just the other day that this could happen if there was too much fertilizer in the top layer of soil - the plant grows so fast it doesn't put out a lot of roots and it doesn't have to go deep for the nutrients.  Don't know if that's helpful, but it's one possibility.

[JohnyMac]

My brother has always told me to starve your plants in your garden, of water when they have taken to the soil. He believes that the roots will go down and form better as they are looking for water.

I have always done it but don't know if it helps or not BUT all plants root balls are very well developed when I pull them up in the fall.

[Jeremy Knauff]

I read just the other day that this could happen if there was too much fertilizer in the top layer of soil - the plant grows so fast it doesn't put out a lot of roots and it doesn't have to go deep for the nutrients.  Don't know if that's helpful, but it's one possibility.

I think you may have hit it on the head...I had laid my compost (rabbit droppings and decomposed plant matter) on top.

My brother has always told me to starve your plants in your garden, of water when they have taken to the soil. He believes that the roots will go down and form better as they are looking for water.

I have always done it but don't know if it helps or not BUT all plants root balls are very well developed when I pull them up in the fall.

Another good point. Plus, it would ensure that only the strongest plants survive, and over time, your saved seeds would produce heartier plants.

[thatGirl]

Using a tomato cage is a cool idea, but squash plants have heavy stems that might make them very top heavy in a cage and I suspect that the umbrella like outward growth of the plant helps it develop, not necessarily deep roots, but a well spread out stabilizing root system. It might be that the "wobbly" plants are experiencing a little more movement from wind and/or asymmetrical top heaviness. See if you can tamp the soil down around the base of the plant-- it may help for the time being.  JM is correct that roots will grow out or down searching for water and nutrients, but you can do more damage depriving them of water if you don't have a good understanding of how long is too long.

Most of plant varieties that are common in our gardens don't develop very large root systems because we have cultivated them to put most of their resources towards fruit production.

I'm not sure if you can do this for squash plants, I've never tried, but for tomatoes I start seeds in pots and wait to plant them until they're hardy seedlings. I clip some of the leaves off of the stem so I can plant about 6" of the stem in the ground above the root ball. Tomato plants can grow roots from the stem that's buried,  allowing the plants to develop larger than natural root systems to support their vertical growth in tomato cages.

It's really cool that you're experimenting in your garden. Keep sharing the woes and triumphs of your experience-- it took TG and I some 8 years to have a truly successful growing season in our garden with minor adjusments each year.  Best of luck!!!

[JohnyMac]

ThatGirl wrote:

It's really cool that you're experimenting in your garden. Keep sharing the woes and triumphs of your experience

I agree!

[Jeremy Knauff]

Just had a thought...I have/make my own compost (rabbit waste, kitchen scraps, and yard clippings) so if the plants aren't running roots deep enough because they can get their nutrients at the surface, would I be better off making compost tea, which would seep deep into the soil rather than sitting on the surface?

[Well-Prepared Witch]

If it were me, I'd double dig it to incorporate the compost.  I don't think compost tea would hurt, though!

[thatGuy]

I'm with Wellie, I would delicately with a sharp shovel remove the plants, turn the bed under at least one spade deep and put the plants back in. Double would be best and no more compost on the ground in an annual bed. Turn it in every time.

[Jeremy Knauff]

Roger that. 

[thatGuy]

I just reread my last on this and it made my back hurt.

Truth be told it is worth the effort, in our raised beds we started with store bought top soil and I turned all the red clay that was under it into it that I could, but truth be told it was only about 2 inches. The shovel just wouldn't punch though the clay no amount of pushing, stomping or jumping would get any deeper. Fast forward 8 years of that and I can now double dig my beds and it is clay loam the whole way.

A common mistake (one I am guilty of) is that folks think simply putting good soil over bad will get the job done. The reality is you need to break the soil under the bed and work it free of it's condition to improve moisture retention and provide some means of draining excess. The simplest way I can think of to do that is to let roots do the work for you, a hearty wheat/rye mix grown over your beds in the winter and turned under before they go to seed will do wonders towards 'cracking' your soil.

An example for you from my own experience has been in drilling drain holes under my fruit trees. I us an old school post hole auger to get the job done and when I first started here all the land produced was a bumper crop of weeds. Drilling that drain hole to the water table which is 5'-13' away would take literally 8 hours and it would leave me exhausted. Over the years of hoeing weeds we are now growing a native grass over most of the front 3 acre. Today, where the native Desert Salt Grass has been growing I can drill the same hole with little discomfort in about 2 hours and I find roots the whole way to the water table. 

The long and short of it is that you need to think of your earth as a product worth of your investment, it will reward you with a higher interest rate than any bank.

[Kentactic]

I didnt notice anyone mention so i will.

Is the soil moisture good down deep? Roots follow water. How are you irrigating said wobbly plants? To build a deep root system you water longer run times less often as apposed to frequent and short run times. Water naturally comes to the surface through the process of E.T. (evapotransperation). To push water deep you stack it. Longer run cycles will give you deep water penetration.

Also a plant gaurded from wind won't build trunk strength. The constant sway makes it strong. Supporting a plant with stakes or cages is like a leg in a cast. The muscles won't grow. Take the cast off and the leg can't support the weight

[thatGuy]

Any updates Jerr?

[Jeremy Knauff]

TG, They are still wobbly, but I've deduced a few things:

1. The stalk comes out of the ground and runs along for a few inches before rising, so they aren't quite as wobbly as I initially thought. If I trace it back to where the roots actually start, it's pretty firm. They still don't seem quite right, but the problem is less severe. I think. Or I could be completely wrong. 

2. You all got me thinking more about the roots, and I have been watering them with a hose on a trickle, rather than a sprinkler. That allows the water to run deeper, and force the roots to chase it. A side benefit is that I use less water and avoid leaf fungus issues. Until I get a chance to set up a drip irrigation system, it's going to be a pain to keep moving the hose, but nothing I can't deal with in the meantime.

Now, I'm also dealing with a major caterpillar issue. I plan to solve that with a solution of vegetable oil, chile peppers, and garlic liquified in a blender, sprayed onto the leaves.

[thatGuy]

Good to hear that all is well!

[Jeremy Knauff]

Time will tell.