Author Topic: So How Are You Going to Communicate in TEOTWAWKI  (Read 11675 times)

Offline APX808

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Re: So How Are You Going to Communicate in TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #50 on: December 16, 2014, 06:48:51 PM »
You could mount a rogue repeater on the top of one of the mountains easily, the problem is that someone could see it and stole it.
Or you can use HF, but equipment is bulkier and isn't as cheap and probably you'll need a license and more knowledge to operate it.
Choose your poison  :cowboy:

Offline JohnyMac

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Re: So How Are You Going to Communicate in TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #51 on: December 16, 2014, 07:40:09 PM »
As APX wrote...Your best option on top of "said" mountain is a repeater or bumping signals off the ionosphere, e.g. Morse code. 
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Offline Kbop

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Re: So How Are You Going to Communicate in TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #52 on: December 16, 2014, 11:35:40 PM »
This whole "line of sight" thing bothers me a bit because there's a big ass mountain right between us and our BOL and being able to maintain comms with the guys there is kinda a big deal. I don't particularly want to take a 3 day hike over a mountain without knowing you the BOL is secure.
Can I ask how far your location - as you would walk it - is to the top of the mountain from your location?  It is a  bit wonky, but could you run your TX line to an antenna on the mountain?  Or could you use high gain antennas and to a two antenna patch? it works better with higher freqs. and directional antennas.  if the wavelength is too long, you could use a D/E/F layer skip (mentioned earlier) but it is chancy - there are a bunch of variables and the layers change properties at night (they go to sleep, sorta).
One other question - are there any power lines (HV transmittion type)?  running close to you and your BOL?  That could be an option.

BTW, I'm no Elmer but I'm on good terms with RF TX/RX.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2014, 11:39:24 PM by Kbop »

Offline thedigininja

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Re: So How Are You Going to Communicate in TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #53 on: December 18, 2014, 05:08:05 AM »
I do think that shortwave/HF is my best bet (and I'm really just deducing this from online research). It is possible to set up a repeater on the mountain but I'm less worried about it being stolen than I am of fending off baboons and leopards or possibly being shot on sight while I'm up there. Running any kind of cable is not gonna work, there's about 60 kms of suburbia and informal settlements between me and the mountain. And from what I've read getting a shortwave licence is something that is actually quite easy here, all you need is to join a club and they do all the paperwork for you.  What effect does weather have on shortwave?
I'd rather be crazy than dead.

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Offline thedigininja

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Re: So How Are You Going to Communicate in TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #54 on: December 18, 2014, 05:16:55 AM »
This whole "line of sight" thing bothers me a bit because there's a big ass mountain right between us and our BOL and being able to maintain comms with the guys there is kinda a big deal. I don't particularly want to take a 3 day hike over a mountain without knowing you the BOL is secure.
Can I ask how far your location - as you would walk it - is to the top of the mountain from your location?  It is a  bit wonky, but could you run your TX line to an antenna on the mountain?  Or could you use high gain antennas and to a two antenna patch? it works better with higher freqs. and directional antennas.  if the wavelength is too long, you could use a D/E/F layer skip (mentioned earlier) but it is chancy - there are a bunch of variables and the layers change properties at night (they go to sleep, sorta).
One other question - are there any power lines (HV transmittion type)?  running close to you and your BOL?  That could be an option.

BTW, I'm no Elmer but I'm on good terms with RF TX/RX.

I have no idea what any of what you just said means.
Have I mentioned that I'm completely retarded when it comes to comms? Well not COMPLETELY. I have experience BUILDING radio, TV, broadcast systems so I might recognise some of the equipment and I could put a system together from a rough diagram but I never learnt about the actual theoretical workings of any of it.
I'd rather be crazy than dead.

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Offline APX808

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Re: So How Are You Going to Communicate in TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #55 on: December 18, 2014, 07:01:16 AM »
@thedigininja, go visit your local HAM club, they probably know how to solve the mountain issue and will explain you all the details, who knows, maybe they already have a repeater working.

HF has a lot of determining factors depending on ionosphere conditions, frequency, distance, antenna, transmitting power etc, so you'll need to worry about more things than weather. Usually rain will screw conditions and electric storms will generate noise that will affect you even if they aren't above you.

Offline Kbop

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Re: So How Are You Going to Communicate in TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #56 on: December 18, 2014, 06:19:58 PM »
TheDigiNinja, I think joining the an amateur radio club like APX808 mentioned makes good sense.

Offline thatGuy

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Re: So How Are You Going to Communicate in TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #57 on: December 19, 2014, 09:18:14 AM »
So this mountain that's chockablock with leopards and gunmen... you plan on walking over it or around it?

 

Offline thedigininja

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Re: So How Are You Going to Communicate in TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #58 on: December 19, 2014, 10:23:04 AM »
I think so too, Kbop.

Depends on the circumstances, TG, but going over is definitely worst case scenario. There are 2 roads through it (1 of which is plan A the other plan C). 2 roads around, 1 short (plan B) and 1 long(I'll probably go over before I opt for that route). And then there's also the option of sailing around as the southern most point leads into a harbour which would likely be higher on my list if I didn't hate large bodies of water.

And that's all only if I don't get through before the roads are clogged.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2014, 10:26:45 AM by thedigininja »
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Offline Shadow

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Re: So How Are You Going to Communicate in TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #59 on: July 29, 2015, 07:23:07 PM »
So what plans have you made to communicate in post SHTF or TEOTWAWKI?

Locally?
Regionally?
Nationally?
globally?

I am sure that many of us have plans to receive coms but what are you planning on using to send coms? As we all know that communication will be your life and breath of survival.

Old JohnyMac:

> Locally = FRS and 2 meter ham transmitter and receiver
> Regionally = 2 & 10 meter ham transmitter and receiver
> Nationally = limited 10 meter ham transmitting and Very Good Short & Long wave receiver
> Globally = Good short and long  wave receiver

We are planning on no or limited cell phone or hard wire coverage. If they go out so will internet.

Lets take a minute to learn from each other.

10 meters has not been open for more than a year now.

And with our planetary system going into a solar minimum the likes of which has not been seen since the 1400's, it is likely that it won't open up again - like we saw in the 1950's, 60's and 70's for another 400 years..

I wouldn't put all my eggs in one basket, and I would try for 20 and 40 meters if I were you.
At least you would have the opportunity to talk to some people that were in the same boat as you.

Offline Shadow

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Re: So How Are You Going to Communicate in TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #60 on: July 29, 2015, 07:27:45 PM »
I do think that shortwave/HF is my best bet (and I'm really just deducing this from online research). It is possible to set up a repeater on the mountain but I'm less worried about it being stolen than I am of fending off baboons and leopards or possibly being shot on sight while I'm up there. Running any kind of cable is not gonna work, there's about 60 kms of suburbia and informal settlements between me and the mountain. And from what I've read getting a shortwave license is something that is actually quite easy here, all you need is to join a club and they do all the paperwork for you.  What effect does weather have on shortwave?

To get an amateur radio license to operate phone on the HF bands, other than 10 meters, you need to pass at least two amateur radio exams.
Both of which are 35 questions, multiple guess, with a 70% grade or better on the exams.
Technically it isn't called Short Wave - I think that is a broadcasting term...
Putting up a repeater isn't going to solve any of your problems, it just causes more problems.
If you don't already have enough things to do with your life, just put up a repeater and see how many problems you can have!  Repeaters are a P.I.T.B...

Offline crudos

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Re: So How Are You Going to Communicate in TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #61 on: July 29, 2015, 07:40:43 PM »
Good points Shadow. And what happens when (not if) the power to the repeater goes down? And while a solar-powered repeater could be an option, it only good until some yokel comes by and decides to do some riot shopping at your site.

Offline Shadow

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Re: So How Are You Going to Communicate in TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #62 on: July 30, 2015, 08:32:24 AM »
Well Crudo's - yes you are right, but it goes much deeper than that.

As an example, lets use 6 meters first.
6 meters - is more ground following - like 10 / 11 meters - CB radio than 2 meters.
This means that the signal stays closer to the ground and will go up over one hill and down over the other side, and it acts a little more like HF than VHF.

Problems with 6 meters -
Anything on the tower, 9 feet long, or multiples of 9 feet acts like a radiator - antenna, and messes up the radiation pattern of the antenna.
With 6 meters it is very important that everything on the tower is tight, no loose guy wires, grounds etc.
When the band opens up, signals from hundreds and even thousands of miles away drifts in.
When it storms, the band gets so noisy, you can't hardly hear anything with your transceiver.
The antenna is large, but doesn't have to be at the top of the tower to work, which means that someone has to climb the tower to put up the antenna, and maintain the antenna system.
The duplexers used to separate the transmit signal from the received signal are very large - 6 feet tall - looks a lot like hot water heaters than the little coffee pots used for 70 cm - 440 MHz.
You wouldn't be able to lug this type of a repeater up to the top of a mountain and just put it up on a moments notice - you would have to build it and maintain it in advance.
You would have to get a coordinated pair of frequencies that wouldn't interfere with another coordinated repeater elsewhere.  Which is hard to do.
And you would need a link frequency above 220 Mhz that you could use to control the repeater - since it would be illegal to put up a repeater and then just walk away from it.

2 meters -
Two meters requires the use of a better antenna - a station master antenna is in the neighborhood of about $1100.00
You have to use hardline - not coax.  Very expensive, both for the hardline and the connectors.
You have to pay to get tower space or build your own tower.
You need to have the antenna as high as you can possibly get it.
The duplexers are very expensive - because everyone is looking for a good set - used, so there is very little good used equipment for sale at a reasonable price.
You have to find a pair of frequencies that you can use that is not already in use and you have to get them coordinated.  No use building a repeater for 146.940 Mhz if there is already another repeater within 120 miles of your location.
Its not very easy to change the length of the coax jumpers for the duplexers or retune the antenna - good antennas are usually purpose built frequency designed from the factory to have a low VSWR.
2 meters is hard to use Solar Power just due to the amount of equipment available - most hams has some type of 2m equipment and you can only get so many watts of power per a day out of a solar panel.  Which means you would either have to reduce transmit power - which would bring complaints from the users when their handheld can't transmit and receive it's signal.
You would have tower rent to pay every month - before TSHTF and you would need access to the tower site after TSHTF.
You would need a coordinated link frequency above 220 Mhz and you would probably have to join the repeater council to ensure that your coordinated frequency pair isn't stolen from you and given to someone that is friends with the people that runs the repeater council.
Its a PITB!

70 CM -
70 CM - ( 440 Mhz) by nature is much easier to get a coordinated pair, just due to the fact that the repeater usually only has a service contour area of about 60 miles - 30 miles in any direction from the base of the tower for the repeater.
The path loss is greater than 2 meters and is dependent upon time of year, since the leaves on the trees can block reliable reception.
You need a very good tower location and you need to get the antenna as high up or at the top of the tower if possible.
You would need a link frequency above 70 CM or below 70 CM - since cross talk between the link and the repeater would mess up the link and you could loose control of the repeater.
Here a dedicated phone line - copper, unpublished telephone number works well.
This also gives you the ability to have a phone patch connected to the repeater...
With 70 CM - using hardline is a must!

I have participated with some prepper groups that thought that all they needed to do to establish a repeater was tie two handheld radios together, put them in a tool box, run a piece of coax up the side of the tower, and put up their own rogue antenna on the tower and a solar panel or two on the fence to charge the handheld batteries.
The problem with trying to do something like this is that you have no way of controlling it and the loss in the feed line negates any gains you get from putting the antenna up in the air higher with coax.
Not having a coordinated pair and the repeater not being able to identify itself every 10 minutes is what gets you in trouble.
Sooner or later, someone will come along, discover it, destroy it and then you loose what ever you thought you would gain by putting up your own rogue repeater...
Some tower owners will get upset if they visit their tower and find an uninvited guest occupying space on their tower, interfering with their legal communications...

Anyway you look at it - building a repeater is not cheap, maintaining a repeater is very expensive, and owning a repeater can be a PITB...
Anytime your repeater breaks, the users expects you to drop everything and run up to the repeater site and fix it as soon as possible.

And if the repeater runs away - gets stuck in transmit or has a unauthorized user that is breaking the rules as per the Part 97 - you, not the person breaking the rules is responsible for the content on your repeater.  So basically other people can get you into trouble for acting up on your repeater, and your repeater itself can cause problems for which you are responsible.

At least when you talk simplex, the only person you are responsible for is you!

Offline thedigininja

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Re: So How Are You Going to Communicate in TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #63 on: August 04, 2015, 06:15:35 PM »
Holy crap, that's some solid info you got there.
Of course I'm going to take your word for all of it because I realised that I really don't get radio. It's all voodoo! Comms is officially not my department.
I'd rather be crazy than dead.

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http://www.metric-conversions.org/measurement-conversions.htm

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Offline Shadow

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Re: So How Are You Going to Communicate in TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #64 on: August 05, 2015, 03:41:07 PM »
Holy crap, that's some solid info you got there.
Of course I'm going to take your word for all of it because I realised that I really don't get radio. It's all voodoo! Comms is officially not my department.

Ok,
My question to you is, how big is your group?
How far apart do you plan to be spread out?
What have you purchased so far - in two way radio equipment?
What do you know how to do and how much are you willing to learn?

Have you ever installed a PL or a N type connector on the end of a piece of coax?
Have you ever put up a antenna before?  Did it work properly?
Do you know how to put up a antenna?
Do you know how to do basic wiring?
Do you understand that a radio that transmits needs more power then say a car stereo, and do you know how to do a mobile install?
Have you installed any two way radio equipment in your vehicle yet?
Do you have any type of a license to use a radio - more than just a cb radio?

Offline Nemo

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Re: So How Are You Going to Communicate in TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #65 on: August 05, 2015, 10:51:43 PM »
OK, after reading and trying to begin to comprehend some of that info, I am still stuck with a couple empty bean cans and some of the 52 miles of 20 pound test fishing line I have.

Nemo

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Offline thedigininja

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Re: So How Are You Going to Communicate in TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #66 on: August 06, 2015, 06:03:30 AM »
A good number of us in our group used to work in broadcasting. We built film, tv, radio and recording studios. So the wiring is no problem with us.
I learn very quickly but I know that when it comes to the more technical things I learn more like a remarkably intelligent chimp, you show me something once and I can do it but that doesn't mean that I understand it.

I like nemo's idea.
I'd rather be crazy than dead.

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Offline Shadow

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Re: So How Are You Going to Communicate in TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #67 on: August 06, 2015, 03:23:42 PM »
You need to have a plan.

Most Prepper groups has a meeting point, a place that all the members of their party can get to in times of troubles from which they can bug out.

I have read all type of plans, everything from four wheel drive trucks to bicycles.
For this you need some type of local communications.
One solution is to contact someone that does two way radios and rent their repeater.
This would give you local communications for a fee and no one would have to become hams or take a test.

When you get to where you are going, you can use some type of UHF simplex - usually requires some type of license.  GMRS would work well for that.

To find out what is going on in the world you would need some type of HF radio and a working antenna.  You wouldn't be able to operate, but at least you would be able to listen.

The key is to get everyone on the same frequency.

Amateur radio would teach you how to operate and how to deploy your antenna and how to operate = even low power, off solar panels and automobile batteries.
The license just gives you the ability to transmit - it doesn't really teach you much of anything.
It is what you do with the license - after you get it that counts!
To put it into simpler terms, the license allows you to experiment!

Offline pkveazey

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Re: So How Are You Going to Communicate in TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #68 on: October 23, 2016, 11:24:15 PM »
I know this is an old post but I just had to comment. Ham radio is the only way to go. All of your Receivers or Tranceivers (HF,VHF,UHF) should be capable of operating on 12 volts. In a pinch you can power them with your car. There are a lot of comments about using repeaters. That is plan A. You have to be prepared for Plan B. Plan B is the use of simplex because the repeaters may not be operating. I have Tranceivers for 160 through 10 Meters, 2 meters, 220 Mhz, and 440 Mhz. They can and will break down. I have backups. On HF, there is an old Ham saying: "If you ain't gettin' there, add more wire." Its true. On VHF and UHF add more height. Its actually pretty easy to get a Baofeng handi-talkie to go 20 Miles on simplex (Base Station to Base Station) if you set up your station right.