Author Topic: For Discussion and Debate Radio Fun  (Read 1175 times)

Offline JohnyMac

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 15157
  • Karma: +23/-0
For Discussion and Debate Radio Fun
« on: March 25, 2018, 01:56:48 PM »
Scenarios:

Scenario I
You agree to hook-up with some friends via a preagreed SOI (Signal Operations Instructions). You want to try out your new QRP (Low Power) rig, a Yaesu 817nd, which top wattage is 5 watts. You charge up the radio, gather up some extra batteries too, pack your new toy in your field pack and head off into the woods.

After a nice hike on a 55 degree afternoon, you come upon a nice tree to set-up under and throw up your antenna on a overhanging branch about 20' high.

You are out for the night so you first throw up your antenna, a end fed antenna that you picked up from EARC in Hawaii. You position the antenna in the general direction of where net control or TOC (Tactical Operations Center) will be operating from. Once the antenna launching was completed you unpack your tent or set-up your hammock. Gather some firewood for a nice little fire, and cook dinner.

After the sun sets and you are fed you hook up your antenna to the 817nd (or any QRP Radio) pour yourself a cup of an adult beverage, throw another log on the fire and turn your radio on.

You are about 30 minutes before the QSO (Net) is supposed to start so you spin the knob to see what is out there. You are pretty excited as you are hearing a lot of traffic on the band that was outlined in the P.A.C.E. (Primary, Alternate, Contingency, and Emergency) part of the SOI. You try to make some contacts using phone but unfortunately nobody acknowledges your call. You think, "no worries as the operators on my net will pull me out". 

At the agreed upon time you are on the Primary frequency and low and behold you hear a request for call-ins for the, lets say...The Unchainedpreppers net. You wait for a few other radio operators to call-in and for that old coot JohnyMac to shut up. There is a break in the action and send out your call but no acknowledgement. So you try again and a person on the net reports that there is someone in the weeds (In the noise level) trying to call-in, "does anybody hear them?" The response from everyone is, "negative."

So you try and try again but to no avail. You sit there totally deflated as most of the folks on the net are coming into your radio loud and clear or at least readable. You are pissed. All of your planning has been for not. Your new $600- radio is in essence just a boat anchor.

Lets skip the obvious and stay away from, "well buddy, you should have tried out your equipment before you trudged off into the woods" and have some fun with what your recommendation would be.

A) Should you have brought to the party a heavier (in weight and power consumption) radio, like the bigger brother to the 817nd the 857, that could go up to 100 watts?
B) Put up a different antenna that you have more faith in, like a center fed dipole?
C) Moved the positioning of the slanted QRP antenna, in different directions trying to get at least one of the folks on the net to hear ya'?
D) Other?

Let the peroration begin...
« Last Edit: March 25, 2018, 02:00:58 PM by JohnyMac »
Keep abreast of J6 arrestees at https://americangulag.org/ Donate if you can for their defense.

Offline Jackalope

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2481
  • Karma: +11/-0
  • Free Citizen
Re: For Discussion and Debate Radio Fun
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2018, 02:28:16 PM »
   Life is too short for QRP!  If the station is limited to QRP, then it is necessary to have the best antenna possible, since the station is already handicapped by low power.  I would hope the TOC would provide both alternate times and alternate frequencies to take advantage of favorable propagation.  Since we're at the bottom of the solar cycle, operators are going to need every trick in the book to effectively communicate,this includes the maximum power possible, the best antenna possible, the best mode possible and the most favorable propagation possible.  Otherwise, communications are not going to be dependable.  As I've mentioned before, even with maximum power and effective antennas, communications may not occur due to poor propagation.  Going to a digital mode may allow for communications, but that isn't guaranteed either. 

     So, in response to your scenario, I'd say a higher powered radio, a center fed dipole oriented in the proper direction, using PSK-31 or Olivia on an appropriate frequency at an appropriate time.  Seeing how poor radio propagation has been recently, I'd suggest a courier as a back-up.  Radio is sometimes an art as well as a science, and sometimes it just doesn't do what we would like it to do.  You can't bend the laws of physics.

Offline JohnyMac

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 15157
  • Karma: +23/-0
Re: For Discussion and Debate Radio Fun
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2018, 09:13:36 PM »
jackalope wrote, "Radio is sometimes an art as well as a science,..." I like that. That is a lot of truth in less than one sentence.  :thumbsUp:

My 2¢ and followup questions or comments at a later time.  ;)

Peace...
Keep abreast of J6 arrestees at https://americangulag.org/ Donate if you can for their defense.

Offline cooter

  • Prepper
  • ***
  • Posts: 118
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: For Discussion and Debate Radio Fun
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2018, 07:02:55 PM »
Your example kind of sums up my experience on unchained peppers net so far. And I have been using 100 watts.  I will try to improve my antennas and see if I can get a better signal out there.
Mike

Offline Jackalope

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2481
  • Karma: +11/-0
  • Free Citizen
Re: For Discussion and Debate Radio Fun
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2018, 07:45:10 PM »
    Mike, stay with it.  An antenna improvement may help, but propagation is lacking lately.  Plus, you're pretty far south compared to the rest of us.  For what it's worth I did hear you both times you checked into the net, so you are getting out.

Offline JohnyMac

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 15157
  • Karma: +23/-0
Re: For Discussion and Debate Radio Fun
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2018, 08:56:29 AM »
Jackalope is right Mike.

Usually I get FL. without any issues but of late, I have not.

On another note: What are you using for an antenna?

It has been my experience that if one has the right antenna up and it is situated properly you can connect with almost anybody even if you are using just 5 watts. As Jackalope eluded to, propagation needs to be on your side too.
Keep abreast of J6 arrestees at https://americangulag.org/ Donate if you can for their defense.

Offline zeerf

  • Prepper
  • ***
  • Posts: 120
  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: For Discussion and Debate Radio Fun
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2018, 08:59:16 AM »
Some great input so far. I am much a n00b here and still trying to figure things out myself.

with phone I am having a hard time with multiple antennas (store bought at first and as of now, still working on making some new things to test).
This is with both the 857 and the 817 (I have more time on the 857 but mostly digital modes)

I have had luck with my 817 on digital but have not even tried allot of phone yet. (on my list of things to do).

Cranking more power into it is great but batteries are heavy and power is not always available was the main reason I wanted to have the lower power options. I have seen many videos of folks having luck with the 817 some phone but again mostly digital modes as that has been my focus lately. Yes, with digital you may argue you need more power for laptops or other "device" however you can do digital with a android phone or tablet (admittedly I normally use a Tough book to get familiar with it and am still learning) but I am starting to test out with the Android apps also.

I do not say all this to say digital is the only way to go. I just know I have had better luck personally with digital (specially with lower power) vs voice...but part of this I believe is my own fear of "talking" on the air. (working on getting over that)

Back to your story and relinking this guys youtube as one of the things he does is test everything on the bench inside before deploying but then he gets out IN it.

I hear transmitting over the ocean helps a ton...so being out in the woods I assume we may not have as much luck as shown in this video and him being over the sea ice ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfbnt4-xg1g

Offline JohnyMac

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 15157
  • Karma: +23/-0
Re: For Discussion and Debate Radio Fun
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2018, 09:15:16 AM »
Good stuff zeerf!

I am slowly getting into digital. Actually I am being dragged into digital by the counties EOC (Emergency Operations Center) - FEMA group. There is a ham fest in my neck of the woods on April 7th so I want to see if I can buy a cheap Signalink USB modem (6 pin for the 817).

My Kenwood 590s has a modem board and yesterday I downloaded FLDIGI. Having a hard time finding a Rig Cat. for the 590s to down load though. "they" say that Sourceforge has it but I can't find it. LOL.
Keep abreast of J6 arrestees at https://americangulag.org/ Donate if you can for their defense.

Offline cooter

  • Prepper
  • ***
  • Posts: 118
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: For Discussion and Debate Radio Fun
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2018, 08:38:23 AM »
Jackalope is right Mike.

Usually I get FL. without any issues but of late, I have not.

On another note: What are you using for an antenna?

It has been my experience that if one has the right antenna up and it is situated properly you can connect with almost anybody even if you are using just 5 watts. As Jackalope eluded to, propagation needs to be on your side too.

I have been using an Alinco DX-SR8T set at 100W output

The two antennas I have tried so far are:
80M/40M fan dipole, the center is about 20' up, and it is oriented North - South.  The orientation is not optimal, but this is the antenna I was able to make contact with.  My fan dipole is set up for NVIS work, so I'm surprised I was able to talk with you at all.  From here, NE PA is close to 1000 miles.

The other was an 80M slant dipole aimed to the NE.  The high end was up about 30', and the low end was about 1' off the ground.  In further reading, that might work better if it was up higher (6' - 10' maybe).

Next time I may try an 80M inverted V aimed to the NE.  Eventually I'll find something that works, even in the current poor propagation.
Mike


Offline JohnyMac

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 15157
  • Karma: +23/-0
Re: For Discussion and Debate Radio Fun
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2018, 09:03:56 AM »
All good cooter.

Yeah that Fan 40/80-meter dipole with the N/S orientation is great for Europe and the west coast of the States but not north or south. BUT, as hams we work with what we gotz. As you wrote though, you were able to check in.  ;D

My guess is the slanted 80-meter terminating 1' above the ground as you have written, needs to be a bit higher at the terminating end. Maybe 1/8λ of 80-meters which is 15'. Your configuration now is more like a vertical. Jackalope could talk more to that, he is a lot smarter in these things than I.  ;)

Another option if space is an issue is an inverted 'L' BUT you would need a ¬60' vertical height to make that work. 60' horizontal and 60' vertical. Then radials.

To your point though cooter, I am impressed that you were able to make the 1,000-mile journey.  :cheers:

PS: We will be moving out of the lower bands as summer comes so we will be focusing on 40-meters. Maybe a 40-meter inverted 'L' would work. 32.5' vertical X 32.5' horizontal. Here is a link to one project.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2018, 09:09:17 AM by JohnyMac »
Keep abreast of J6 arrestees at https://americangulag.org/ Donate if you can for their defense.

Offline lewisp

  • Prepper Apprentice
  • *
  • Posts: 22
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: For Discussion and Debate Radio Fun
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2018, 01:30:56 PM »
Got to go with all of the above. It's all about the antenna when you are playing the QRP game. Many have said it should be called "amateur antenna, not amateur radio". Put it on an analyzer and really see what you have. If I was looking to follow an SOI,  I would cut an antenna to length for that particular freq, and combined with a decent tuner be as efficient as possible. I would have different wire for the different band/freqs in the SOI as well. Pretty fast to lower one and string up another. I seem to have great luck with inverted V's using my 817 and KX2.  Also, if somebody is not in the digital game with all of the great gear and information available, they really need to step up and get going. Hard.  Digital is king in poor conditions, right along with good old CW. These are the QRP artist's best tools to get information in and out.
  As a plug to the portable/QRP world, everybody needs to look up the RaDAR challenge. Starts tomorrow, free, good test of your field comms systems. Get out there! :thumbsUp:

Need to mention that my luck with QRP on 80 meters is not great. Digital has been fair, but phone is tough,regardless of antenna configuration. I think it's all about antenna height to get better emissions.  In the largely treeless, or shorter tree areas around where I am, this leaves me with using poles and such to rig antennas. I also have a 45 watt amp I can hook up to the 817 for that extra boot, if needed. Could really help on 80 meters with these "lower" antennas I need to use. You can run the radio right through the amp, and leave it off until needed, and it costs you no power. Tune and Rx right through the amp, then flick it on, Tx at 45 watts, then turn it off. Works great!
« Last Edit: April 06, 2018, 01:43:04 PM by lewisp »