WOLF .308 $.32 per round FREE SHIP

[Grudgie]

https://www.targetsportsusa.com/wolf-mc-308-winchester-ammo-145-grain-fmj-steel-case-mc308cfmj-p-3348.aspx

Anybody have any experience with Wolf military classic? Hard primer? Failure to extract? All I know is I am never touching Tula again. Thinking real hard about what kind of ammo I am going to feed through my new M14.

[Nemo]

Tell me more about Tula.  I have had no issues with their 5.56 and 9mm. 

I have also had no issues with either of those in Wolf.

Nemo

[Grudgie]

My experience with Tula is atleast 1 hard primer strike per 30 round magazine. And group sizes of 6-8" at 100 yards. Compared to 2.5" with Federal M193.

[Erick]

In .223 Wolf is  class above Tula.

During 2010 and 2011 and 2012 I have shot maybe 30,000 rds of Wolf.
Not a single stuck case and I dont seem to remember any issue w/ hard primers.

However they do make extended firing pins and I wouldnt be surprised if that might make TUla more reliable.

I did shoot some Tula during that timeframe but had lots of hard primer issues but that long before I ran extended firing pins.

Ammo is one of the greatest expenses we have in staying practiced and and stash deep.
I have equipped all my ARs now w/ the Red X firing pins for the occasional hard primer encountered w/ russian ammo.

Works real well in a .223 and 5.56 gun:
http://www.redxarms.com/product-p/938b.htm

[Grudgie]

Thanks Erik. I just ordered one as I still have a few thousand of that steel cased .223 you told me about.

[Erick]

Thanks Erik. I just ordered one as I still have a few thousand of that steel cased .223 you told me about.

Great!!!
Order a 2nd one as w/o it the ammo may be worthless

I am also gratified to hear you stacked up on that from my tip.

Seems to do well in accuracy, consistency and load:

3099 ft/sec out of the reference (20 inch) barrel with . Very very good for a supposed .223 load.. More like a 5.56 load.. (spec is 3150 for full powered milspec 5.56 M193 55 gr.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FI_3IMUqVVA

My personal accuracy tests (20 inch nitrided barrel from prone supported firing position) gave me 1.5 MOA groups which is incredible for economy ammo.


They still import them, now  with "normal" primers but price back up to 22 cents a round..
when in stock:
https://www.sgammo.com/product/223-556mm-ammo/1000-round-case-223-rem-56-grain-fmj-golden-tiger-steel-case-ammo-made-vympe-0

[Erick]

PS: Here is another feature on Golden Tiger that you stashed up on based on advice in this forum:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z-p96N6bxs

[Grudgie]

Erik, you also use extra power hammer springs in your ARs correct? Which do you use?

[Erick]

Erik, you also use extra power hammer springs in your ARs correct? Which do you use?

Not anymore.

After some experimentation I found out the extra power hammer springs are not necessary with the RedX extended firing pins.

I originally bought the AR15extreme extended firing pics.
Those were not "extreme" enough to make the hard primers function w/o the addition of the Wolff Hammer springs.

The ar15extreme FP in combination with the Wolff Hammer springs would give me 100% function.. but..

I got tired of the stiffer triggers when using the Wolff Hammer Spring.


However I also had a couple of ARs I had bought RedX FPs.

I had noticed that my RedX Arms FPs have an even more extended tip than the ar15 extreme FPS.
So I experimented and I found the RedX by itself with a normal spring would function the rounds just fine.

So in summer when using the AR15extreme FP and the Wolff hammer springs. they were both necessary but not sufficient by themslves only in combination w/ each other.

When using the RedX Arms product i linked above you do not need the Wolff Hammer springs.
I have gone thru about 1500 rounds of this ammo now using just the RedX FPs backed by standard springs and had only 2 to 3 (tops) lite strikes.

Which is about in line with normal economy ammo w/ normal primers getting hit with normal FPs.
Actually a couple of my ARs have springs a little (just a little tho!)  on the soft side and still function with the FP I linked above.

So I took out all my extra powered springs replaced them with normal powered springs..and now have a bunch of Wolff hammer springs sitting in my parts pins as extras.
Luckily they were cheap.

[Grudgie]

Thanks again for the info Erik. I shot the .308 Wolf Military Classic today through my M1A at 25 yards. It was dead on. Two 5 shot groups that were just under 1" which should translate to 3.5-4" MOA at 100 yards. I am more than pleased. This will be my go to general purpose .308 with this rifle.

I'll take it out to 100 yards soon and dial it in.

[Grudgie]

Erik, bad news on the Golden Tiger .223. I shot 60 rounds yesterday through my 20" rifle length AR15 with the RedX firing pin.

Out of 60 rounds:
- 8 failures to ignite primer (all rounds fired on the second attempt to fire them)
- 3 failures to feed
- Magazine not locking back

I will try getting an extra power hammer spring and see what happens. I also believe the rounds are not fully cycling the bolt. I will look into getting a lighter recoil buffer.

[Erick]

Erik, bad news on the Golden Tiger .223. I shot 60 rounds yesterday through my 20" rifle length AR15 with the RedX firing pin.

Out of 60 rounds:
- 8 failures to ignite primer (all rounds fired on the second attempt to fire them)
- 3 failures to feed
- Magazine not locking back

I will try getting an extra power hammer spring and see what happens. I also believe the rounds are not fully cycling the bolt. I will look into getting a lighter recoil buffer.

Hmmm. thats very interesting..
Not only do you have failures to ignite but from the other issues it seems when you do have ignition it seems w/o enough oomph.

Is your Hammer spring softer than milspec?
Try a known milspec spring first before u get a wolff hammer spring (which I can send u for free a couple BTW)

I've gone thru quite a few rounds of these.
Your symptoms exactly mirror the ones i had when I ran the GT with the "softer" enhanced FP and w/o the hammer spring to help to include excessive softness of load when it did ignite..

Couple guys on another forum are running them and run fine like this.

Have you headspaced your rifle? .. maybe be the chamber is a bit deep and so the FP does not go in as far as needed.

Do u have another AR to try?
Or another hammer spring thats known milspec?

I can also send u Wolff Hammer springs 4 free...

[Grudgie]

I will try some more rounds through another 20" AR15 I have tomorrow. And if that doesn't work I would love taking those springs off your hands!

[Erick]

Do u have milspec hammer springs in your ARs or something a little softer?
Because thats what I tested w/ the RedX FP.

tested in a
BCM LW 16 inch
Sig 516 piston in 16 inch
LWRC M6
Noveske barreled/chambered  Frankengun

In all of those I started w/ the more basic enhanced FP . which by itself did not assure good function.
Symptoms similar to what u describe.
Some of these rifles had softer trigger packs too though..

replaced all hammer springs w/ Wolff and in combination w/ upgraded FP= basically100% function
Then too out Wolff Hammer Springs and replaced all FPs with RedX= basically 100% function. about in line with most everything else.

i did notice though.... if your spring was soft .....even the RedX FP may not be enough..at least not by itself.
I ordered some PSA milspec hammer springs and combined them with economy trigger upgraded  but using the somewhat stiffer milspec springs with the trigger pack instead of the softer ones).

[Grudgie]

Erik, I did some more testing with my second AR15. Here are the results:

60 rounds through second AR15. 2 failures to fire. Magazine successfully locks back.

After this I took out the buffer springs of each AR15 and noticed that the AR15 with lock back issues has a longer buffer spring. The lengths of the two springs are 13", and the second one was 12" 1/8".

I swapped the springs out and fired 60 more rounds through the first AR15. 6 failures to fire. Magazine successfully locks back.

The only parts swapped between the AR15s were the redx firing pin and buffer springs.

My conclusion: The longer buffer spring was the culprit behind the failures to feed and the magazine not locking back. Also, the hammer spring seems to be weaker on my second AR15.

I'll pm you my address to send that Wolf hammer spring. After I shorten the buffer spring or buy a new one I will see how it goes from there.

[Erick]

It seems your second AR is functioning much better with these.
Even though 3% failure rate is still higher than what I see.

I shot my Sig516 the other weekend 300 rds w/o the use of heavy srping and got 1 light primer strike. Which is at least good enough for training and in SHTF probably good enough when the other ammo runs out (because it was too expensive) or is ruined (because the nicely laquered and sealed rounds will last thru the most humid storage).
Thats a failure rate of 0.3 % so one order of magnitude better than what you get and about in line what normal economy ammo does with unmodified weapons.

Even though I seem to remember having gone thru 1000 rds before without any light primer strikes or any other issue but I dont remember 100%.. that might have been with the stiffer spring....

I will gladly send you Wolff Hammer Springs I found two in my stash that I think are the Wolffs .

But since they were not in original packaging I can't be 100% (my big box of original spares is at the BOL I will be there in 3 weeks).. Well I am 95% on one of them since I had marked it's packet by hand "Wolff" and the other one looks/feel same.

IMO they are best used in conjunction with a smooth trigger group like this one:
https://www.righttobear.com/Enhanced-Nickel-Teflon-Trigger-Assembly-p/enta-01.htm

or anything thats polished as IMO the wolff Hammer springs accentuate any creepiness or roughness that may exist in the pre existing trigger.

Are your pre existing Hammer Springs for sure Milspec and not softer?
Can you take a close up picture for me of the red X FP?

I also have a couple of RedXs on hand, one in original packaging, so I would love to compare your FP...
Cannot explain your problems since I tried it w/o stronger springs in several ARs and your symptoms seem broadly similar to  what I got when I tried the milder modified FP w/o any heavy springs.

By now I converted at least 3 or 4 of my ARs and pulled the heavy hammer spring and replaced with a PSA milspec spring.
I think I have gotten in the past passable results even with a spring from the RKB kit linked above which is about a lb less than milspec.


PS: If you ever get frustrated by it I will take the ammo off your hands for what u paid for it, if the shipping isnt too extreme.
PS2: Can you take a close up pic for me that shows the internals of both your trigger groups? From the top of the open lower receiver. Close enough so we can see where the "legs" of your hammer springs are?

[Grudgie]

I don’t know if they are milspec or not. They are the stock hammer spring that came with the rifles. One is a Bushmaster xm15 from the 90s or early 2000s. The other is a more recent BCM.

Here are is a picture if they help. The Ar15 with only 2 light primer strikes is on the left. The one on the right is the BCM.

[Erick]

The Hammer springs appear to be installed correctly.
As you probably know its possible for them to be installed reverse side and they will still function.. just more softly and it will show up in some situations only.

The older Bushmaster almost certainly had a mil spec hammer spring.
Usually BCM does too.. but some of the higher end manufacturers like BCM sometimes put optional trigger upgrades in their lowers from the factory and some of those involve softer hammer springs.
Did you buy them from BCM direct or used?

In any event I can speculate forever but the proof will be in the pudding.
I just got an email with someone's address from TN.

is that you?
I will send my springs to you but would still like to see us solve this w/o resorting to the Xpower springs.
So I might include a brand new PSA milspec spring from my stash, as well for comparison.

Can u send a pic of the RedX FP as well?

[Grudgie]

Here is the BCM standard on the left and Redx on the right.

[Erick]

Well it does look like you were shipped the right part also.
I will send u some Xpowered springs this week.

[Erick]

Well it does look like you were shipped the right part also.
I will send u some Xpowered springs this week.

3 Different Hammer springs, to include 1 Wolff Xtra power went out you last Friday.