What do you do when your money disappears?

[Well-Prepared Witch]

India’s ATMs are running out of cash and people are furious
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/11/11/indias-atms-are-running-out-of-cash-and-people-are-furious/?tid=sm_tw

and

Zimbabweans 'camp out' to withdraw cash
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-37951256?ocid=socialflow_twitter

[Grudgie]

We got your back Indians.

[JoJo]

We got your back Indians.

I'm not trying to be a smart a** I'm asking because I don't know. What happens to your Bit Coins if we have an EMP {WWIII} or a CME ?

[Grudgie]

I'm not meaning to thread jack Well Prepared Whitches' thread here, but to answer your question Jo Jo, a localized EMP or power outage would not erase any Bitcoins. I'm no tech person but there are thousands of copies of the Blockchain on 6 continents so your Bitcoins would be fine as soon as things are back online. If you are facing a prolonged shtf scenario, then good luck finding someone who would accept cash or physical metals anyway. Only 1/100 people know the price of an ounce of gold and with no
Internet, price discovery of gold would be a nightmare. But the internet is reaching the far corners of the planet these days making Bitcoin a relatively robust system.

[Nemo]

Gold and silver have inherent value in themselves but that value in a SHTF situation would be determined by those who were doing the haggling.  Bitcoin would quickly become worthless. 
Same with cash.  It would maintain some value post apocalypse but that "value"  would be determined by those tryhing to make a deal.

EG, If I had 1000 gallons of kerosene and someone wanted to buy 5, I would probably sell it to him cheaper than I would if I had 20 gallons.  Price would not be the same as it were just before fan impact but it would be determined by what the costs were regarding things I needed in the area that others were charging.

Depending on how bad he needed/wanted it, he would pay my price, haggle, or move somewhere else.

Its rather hard to trade bitcoin or numbers/emblems/marks on a computer screen if you do not have a working system from internet to laptop.  That system would need to be rather widespread because bitcoin is worthless on my screen if no one relatively nearby is willing to take the risk of power/internet going out.

Cash will always have value, if for nothing more than TP.

Nemo

[Kbop]

Gold and silver have inherent value in themselves but that value in a SHTF situation would be determined by those who were doing the haggling.  Bitcoin would quickly become worthless. 
Same with cash.  It would maintain some value post apocalypse but that "value"  would be determined by those tryhing to make a deal.

EG, If I had 1000 gallons of kerosene and someone wanted to buy 5, I would probably sell it to him cheaper than I would if I had 20 gallons.  Price would not be the same as it were just before fan impact but it would be determined by what the costs were regarding things I needed in the area that others were charging.

Depending on how bad he needed/wanted it, he would pay my price, haggle, or move somewhere else.

Its rather hard to trade bitcoin or numbers/emblems/marks on a computer screen if you do not have a working system from internet to laptop.  That system would need to be rather widespread because bitcoin is worthless on my screen if no one relatively nearby is willing to take the risk of power/internet going out.

Cash will always have value, if for nothing more than TP.

Nemo

the difference between commodity money and currency. 

[pkveazey]

I didn't know what Bitcoin was until the other night when I saw a show that explained it pretty well. I think it will work pretty well and the IRS can't figure out who's got what. However, I'm not going to use Bitcoin. If I cant hold it in my hand, it doesn't exist. Even when Money, Precious Metals or Precious Stones won't be good, I expect to use things to barter. When people get hungry, gold doesn't taste nearly as good as a Ham Sandwich.

[Grudgie]

Gold and silver have inherent value in themselves but that value in a SHTF situation would be determined by those who were doing the haggling.  Bitcoin would quickly become worthless. 
Same with cash.  It would maintain some value post apocalypse but that "value"  would be determined by those tryhing to make a deal.

EG, If I had 1000 gallons of kerosene and someone wanted to buy 5, I would probably sell it to him cheaper than I would if I had 20 gallons.  Price would not be the same as it were just before fan impact but it would be determined by what the costs were regarding things I needed in the area that others were charging.

Depending on how bad he needed/wanted it, he would pay my price, haggle, or move somewhere else.

Its rather hard to trade bitcoin or numbers/emblems/marks on a computer screen if you do not have a working system from internet to laptop.  That system would need to be rather widespread because bitcoin is worthless on my screen if no one relatively nearby is willing to take the risk of power/internet going out.

Cash will always have value, if for nothing more than TP.

Nemo

Firstly, I'm not making the case that Bitcoin is an ideal shtf currency, that was never its intended purpose anyway. As a matter of fact I believe it would make a poor currency in the scenario that you present, that is, a prolonged environment without internet connection and/or electricity (though I find such an event unlikely to happen given that America survived through the Great Depression without losing electricity and Europe survived 2 world wars without losing electricity).

What I will make the case for is that Bitcoin (and other crypto currency) is an excellent investment and an alternative to cash.

One of your arguments for not using Bitcoin is that Bitcoin will not be usable during a shtf scenario, therefore I will not use it in the present. This argument isn't livable. If we apply this principal to everything in our life there would be very little that we would use. But I am guessing you own a vehicle that will not be usable during shtf, you probably own a television and other electric appliances that will not be usable during shtf, you probably own many things that will worthless/unusable during shtf.

Your other argument (if I may liberally extrapolate you guys' meaning) is that only tangible things have inherent value, Bitcoin is not tangible, therefore Bitcoin has no inheirent value. I agree with conclusion but I disagree with both the premises. And I will continue this excellent discussion later tonight because I have to go right now.

[Nemo]

One of your arguments for not using Bitcoin is that Bitcoin will not be usable during a shtf scenario, therefore I will not use it in the present. This argument isn't livable. If we apply this principal to everything in our life there would be very little that we would use. But I am guessing you own a vehicle that will not be usable during shtf, you probably own a television and other electric appliances that will not be usable during shtf, you probably own many things that will worthless/unusable during shtf.

My position is not so much that its not usable then so not of use/want now, but more of a no use or need/want for it now and potential disappearance in future.  All other items have use, need and want now.  They may be of value in the future or not.  But all are of use now and will likely be of use in future.  That use/value will remain at least to me.  Food will be good until eaten and can be of use even before fecal matter flies.  I could have earned no gold this week and get a sack of beans from under bead and still eat now.  So put $$ those type place and let one (coin disappearance) concern go away.

Your other argument (if I may liberally extrapolate you guys' meaning) is that only tangible things have inherent value, Bitcoin is not tangible, therefore Bitcoin has no inheirent value. I agree with conclusion but I disagree with both the premises. And I will continue this excellent discussion later tonight because I have to go right now.

If I understand you correctly, you are half correct.  I cannot put a half dozen bitcoins in my pocket and go to town.  My view is because of that, it in itself has no value.   Bitcoin requires something else to give it value.  Gold has value to all.  That amount of that value can differ between persons but it has intrinsic value in and of itself.

Bitcoin has no intrinsic value.  It requires many other things to let it have value.  Electricity, at least 2 computers. Buyer and seller can deal on one, but a server to process, internet to let bits to go to next town and all that.  One goes missing completely, its valueless.  It has no value simply by itself. 

Similar to light going across the room.  That light has value by letting you see and not fall over the stool or read a book.  Bulb, lamp, electricity and all that makes it, but I cannot take the light to town in a bucket or box.  Just like you cannot put a bitcoin in a box or wallet unless you make it something else.  Gold/silver/etc has value just as it is.  It needs not be made something else to give it the value. 

My thoughts anyway.

Nemo

[JohnyMac]

I have been writing this since MrLnL days...

"Have 4 weeks (One month) worth of cash on hand." Rent, mortgage, food outlays, electric, gas/oil, phone, cable, et cetera on hand. You don't have that much handy in your bank today, put $20, $50, $100, a week away and over time the cookie jar will be full.

[Grudgie]

I wil say this. Though it isn't a good argument if an argument at all. It presupposes some things to be true beforehand.

Value does not exist in the object, value exists in the subject. The subject is the human mind. The value of gold does not exist in the gold itself, it exists in the mind of the subject. For example, if there is no one around to hear a tree fall in the forest, does it make a sound? Likewise, if there is no one around to use gold, does it have value?

Secondly, forget the fact that Bitcoin is called a 'coin'. Coin is just a word. The word coin has a specific meaning. Calling Bitcoin a coin is exactly like calling an Ebook a book. An Ebook is not really a book in the physical sense. Just like Bitcoin is not really a coin.

But that doesn't mean Ebooks and Bitcoin are not physical. They exist in the physical world just as much as gold. What a bitcoin is is an agreed upon ledger that says you have a quantity of something. That ledger exists in the physical world and it has value in the mind of the subject.

Bitcoin is just as real as gold and silver. Both physically, and ideally.

[JohnyMac]

Well written Grudgie. Its called "perceived vale". That is why people go to flea markets and garage sales.

[Kbop]

Wow Grudgie - you make an excellent point.