Author Topic: War with Iran- John Mosby of Nous Defions Gets Political  (Read 2186 times)

Offline EJR914

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Re: War with Iran- John Mosby of Nous Defions Gets Political
« Reply #50 on: February 10, 2012, 03:30:08 PM »

Yeah, since our country had a non-interventionist foreign policy for the first hundred and some odd years and it actually worked for them.

First Barbary War (1801 to 1805)
War of 1812 (1812 to 1815)
Mexican- American War (1846 to 1848)
Spanish-American War (April 25?August 12, 1898)

Please explain to me HOW we started each of those wars, and how each of those wars were not the reaction to some action that was first taken upon us. 

Also, three out of those four wars WERE HERE, either on American soil or right here on an American neighbor, right in our own backyard.  How in the hell are you even coming close to comparing that to what we are now doing in the Middle East for oil?

Offline EJR914

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Re: War with Iran- John Mosby of Nous Defions Gets Political
« Reply #51 on: February 10, 2012, 03:31:35 PM »
Also, explain to me how Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, and George Washington were all full of shit, and didn't know what the fuck they were talking about when they told us that America should have a non-interventionist foreign policy.

That's right, sledge, somehow you know what is better than our founding fathers did.

Quote
George Washington's farewell address is often cited as laying the foundation for a tradition of American non-interventionism:

    The great rule of conduct for us, in regard to foreign nations, is in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible. Europe has a set of primary interests, which to us have none, or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves, by artificial ties, in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics, or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities.

Quote
President Thomas Jefferson extended Washington's ideas in his March 4, 1801 inaugural address: "peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 03:34:49 PM by EJR914 »

Offline sledge

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Re: War with Iran- John Mosby of Nous Defions Gets Political
« Reply #52 on: February 10, 2012, 03:35:52 PM »
If it's written it must be true.  Honestly, it had the smell of agenda all through it.  And several of the statements in it were flat out opinion which sounded like Bull Shit to me.

I still can't believe we've wasted this much time on this.  Don't ask me for answers to stuff you should be able to figure out yourself.

Are we finished?

I'll tell you what.  You are right, you are so right!  Does that do it?

I'm finished with the nonsense.






In the pursuit of liberty, many will fall. In the pursuit of fascism, many will be against the wall..........   Courtesy of Xydaco

Offline EJR914

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Re: War with Iran- John Mosby of Nous Defions Gets Political
« Reply #53 on: February 10, 2012, 03:40:44 PM »
If it's written it must be true.  Honestly, it had the smell of agenda all through it.  And several of the statements in it were flat out opinion which sounded like Bull Shit to me.

I still can't believe we've wasted this much time on this.  Don't ask me for answers to stuff you should be able to figure out yourself.

Are we finished?

I'll tell you what.  You are right, you are so right!  Does that do it?

I'm finished with the nonsense.

Some of what you've said sounded like bullshit to me, such as the four wars that you listed as proof that we've always had an interventionist foreign policy.  When I ask you to prove it, you tell me to prove it myself?  I've already proved it myself by reading history books, and I have a fairly good knowledge of what actually caused each of those wars, at least from all sources that I could possibly get information from. 

Don't forget to take your ball with you.

Offline sledge

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Re: War with Iran- John Mosby of Nous Defions Gets Political
« Reply #54 on: February 10, 2012, 03:46:01 PM »

Don't forget to take your ball with you.

Thanks for the reminder.  I almost forgot it.



In the pursuit of liberty, many will fall. In the pursuit of fascism, many will be against the wall..........   Courtesy of Xydaco

Offline rah45

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Re: War with Iran- John Mosby of Nous Defions Gets Political
« Reply #55 on: February 10, 2012, 04:33:57 PM »
Cautiously peers from foxhole before speaking.

 :o


Ah, well if I could make a point here....

To address the endgame of sledge's argument: I agree that, if China/Russia/X-Nation were to subdue the majority of the world and use its natural resources for their own benefit, they would eventually be able to take us in anything but a nuclear war. I think it's likely that China/Russia have the capability to overtake Western Europe and the Middle East. I think one of them could overpower the other one, given opportunity/luck. I do think it's unlikely that Russia or China would just allow the other to accumulate vast natural resources via conquest without intervention, even if just to ensure that the other's power does not increase too much to become unmanageable. However, let's assume that one of them has conquered everyone else, or that they have both formed an alliance. They still will not be able to succeed.

The U.S. has the most powerful navy in the world. We have the best military technology (or technology that is the equal of everyone else) in the world. Bringing our money and military back home will only increase its effectiveness via a much stronger economy, meaning strong advances in military hardware and training. The problem with China subduing us has never been a lack of numbers. It's their lack of ability to establish and maintain a foothold on the U.S. to successfully land and supply their several hundred-million troops. Their plan completely relies on a strong naval presence, which neither the Chinese nor the Russians possess. Lacking this presence, they are cannon fodder for our naval, coastal and air forces, only a portion of which would be necessary to successfully destroy all or most of their landing forces. The rest could be used for counter-offensive operations, taking the fight to their home soil. The Russians would be able to land some people here, I would imagine, if they were able to mount a strong enough air contingent to overcome the Alaskan defenses. If they were to land enough troops (or make a window for the Chinese to land troops), they could possibly sever the Alaskan pipeline, severely increasing supply problems for American troops. However, especially considering that the Canadians would also be threatened by this move, I doubt any landed force would last long against a counter-offensive, if they were even good enough to expel our forces from the Alaskan theatre.

All that is a moot point, however, and I'll tell you why. Look back at history - when have you ever seen a nation (particularly a Communist nation) successfully assimilate several other nations into itself and function well enough that it actually increases its efficiency? You don't. The Roman Empire was able to conquer in that manner, but only because the lands it conquered were adjacent to itself or just across the Mediterranean. The more it expanded, the weaker it became. Its supply lines were strained more every day it advanced. It had to commit more of its forces to suppress civil unrest, because just because conquered lands belonged to Rome, the people and the culture weren't "Roman." They were the conquered. This increased the need for replacements. The replacements eventually almost solely came from the "assimilated" peoples, and were essentially mercenaries (not Roman soldiers) who were just as likely to sack Rome herself if they were not kept appeased by gold that the Western Roman emperors had to borrow. Eventually, what was left of the empire imploded upon itself. The modern equivalent might be Soviet Russia. She conquered her neighbors and was checked by the U.S. However, she did not fall because we attacked her. She fell because her own economic and political practices failed. She was not able to sustain an economy that would fund the constant military buildup. Her subjugated peoples were not "Russian" any more than the Germanic tribesmen were "Roman." There was resistance, and eventually the Eastern European peoples regained their independence. The point is this - if China or Russia conquers Europe and the Middle East, all the natural resources won't guarantee success against the U.S. It would take a phenomenal amount of resources, manpower and coordination to take us down without nuclear attacks. The resources and manpower they would have, but the coordination they would not have. To think that the European and Middle Eastern nations would blindly submit, instead of reawakening a fire of independence and starting resistances and revolutions, is just silly. Human history proves that empires of this magnitude cannot long last and maintain their effectiveness. As expansion occurs, the effectiveness diminishes. They will not be able to take us if they conquer everyone else, sledge, because if they do they'll be doing everything in their power just to keep their empire functioning at its basic levels.

A great example of current overextension is us. You say that we're stronger when we're projecting by interventionism? I believe you're wrong. As EJR has already stated, we're spread too thin. We're more vulnerable now than we should be, because we have our fingers in too many pies. Our military is committed across the globe. The British Empire once was as we are now...they had a small but effective military that was technologically superior to their enemies. However, they were kicked out of many other nations and are now reduced to that small island. If we don't keep our military organized and strong, we can be defeated piecemeal. It's only a matter of time.

So, to recap...China and Russia could not hope to conquer all of the world and then come for us, because they'd be too occupied keeping their empires functioning. We cannot project our strength like this much longer without someone taking advantage of it and hurting us, making us bleed. The only solution seems to be to recall our troops, defend our immediate sphere of influence (the Americas), and become strong once more.

@EJR: What exactly did we disagree about? I thought we see eye-to-eye on pretty much everything...did I forget?  ???

Offline sledge

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Re: War with Iran- John Mosby of Nous Defions Gets Political
« Reply #56 on: February 10, 2012, 04:47:19 PM »
Cautiously peers from foxhole before speaking.

 :o

LOL!  There aren't any bombs coming.  EJR and I disagree.  He turns a little more aggressive than I do.  As long as he doesn't try to keep my ball we don't have a problem.   :)

Your argument is well thought out.  I don't know that I agree with China or Russia not being able to cause us problems by going expansionist which I think they would.  Even if they were successful for only a short time.  (25-40 years.)
The idea of drawing back and protecting only the Americas is possibly a doable idea that would work if they became expansionist.  It makes me think of the North American Union thing.  Only with South America added.  (Chavez would hate this idea.)

At any rate, I'm getting out of this discussion.  You guys type to much for my tastes.   :)



In the pursuit of liberty, many will fall. In the pursuit of fascism, many will be against the wall..........   Courtesy of Xydaco

Offline EJR914

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Re: War with Iran- John Mosby of Nous Defions Gets Political
« Reply #57 on: February 10, 2012, 05:31:49 PM »
@EJR: What exactly did we disagree about? I thought we see eye-to-eye on pretty much everything...did I forget?  ???

I don't remember, Rah, it was a while ago.  I think we agree on a lot of the big stuff, though.