Author Topic: Would smaller government be a good thing?  (Read 1161 times)

chenmi

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Would smaller government be a good thing?
« on: February 10, 2015, 01:39:29 PM »
Lincoln thought that the proper role of government was to do things people couldn't do for themselves. 

A lot of people say they want smaller government.  I rarely hear anyone wanting more.  They just say, "Government should do this or that."  The results, unless the government stops one "service" to refocus on another, is that adding services results in bigger government.

The devil is always in the details.  So let me throw out some examples, along with some of my opinions, and see who wants more or less from government.

Environmental protection....   I personally can't protect myself from pollution unless it is a minor thing with a neighbor.  Even them I may not be able to stop it.  Alone, I stand no change against a corporation of any size.  Both pro business and pro environment groups will scream about highhandedness, senseless regulation or overregulation.  As an individual I don't have sufficient knowledge or resources to make or enforce reasonable rules.  Are you willing to reduce cut environment monitoring and enforcement to shrink government?

Business regulation:  Oil, banking, work place conditions, discrimination by age, race ...  These are all areas where individuals don't have the money, time or power to go it alone without government.  Are you willing to reduce regulations to shrink government?

Welfare: 

In my 40's I went back to school to retrain as a computer analysis.  I met and befriended two men two lived on social security disability payments.  The schizophrenic was 40ish, very smart and a bit quirky even on his meds.  His social security payment covered a small kind of dumpy efficiency apartment where he live alone independently on a diet of boiled dry beans and 1/2 pack of cigs a day.  His medical and educational expense were cover, but I don't know the source.  IMHO, even if he had graduated, he was unemployable.  If I ran a computer programming business that was large enough that I could lock him in the back and keep him away from the clients, I'd have hired him.  He was never going to be that lucky. 

 The other was a quadriplegic due to oxygen deprivation of his brain during birth.  He controlled his chair with wrist movement via a joystick and communication by laboriously texting with a computer which tracked a dot/cursor on his headband as he had enough control of his neck to make it work.  He graduated as a web designer.  His government assistance was a house, one aide to feed, move and care for him, his motorized chair and computer, a junky van with a lift which he couldn't afford to upgrade and enough money to eke out an existence.  His view of his future was very uncertain; IMHO, grim.

There is a lot of pressure to reduce entitlements, thus government, with across the board spending cuts. I will not tell horror stories about abuse of the welfare programs as we all know some.  My point is I didn't begrudge either of these two guys the help my tax dollars paid for.  I would have paid more taxes to improve the quality of their lives and did so privately.  The problem is deciding who is deserving and of how much.  Laws and regulations have to be written in a one-size-fits-all language despite regional and local differences in cost of living.  It takes time and people to evaluate and monitor entitlements. (that means more people, higher case loads and/or less oversight) 
More people means bigger government.  Less oversight and higher case loads mean more fraud. Society has to choose the balance.  This is subjective, opinion-driven and political.  Where do you stand?

Some programs included in "entitlements" aren't really giveaways, like social security retirement payments after the recipient paid in through out their working lives.  There are so many entitlements that have similar conundrums.  What size government meets your requirements for compassion, efficiency and oversight?

Defense:  Defense in one form or another is about 1/2 the federal budget.  A stronger national defense seems tied to spending, hence bigger government.  I find it odd that the smaller government advocates tend to be the strong defense advocates.  The politics of special interest groups for various weapon systems, base location and defense related jobs is intense.  What is the correct balance?

Law Enforcement:  From the salaries of LEO to public prosecutors to the court and prison system, a lot of money/government is related to law enforcement.  Included is the war on drugs, the ATF,some Homeland Security  functions and the Immigration Service.  In Wisconsin, the largest department in the state government is Corrections.  A few other related facts include the US having the highest proportion of its citizens incarcerated, about .7%.  (higher than North Korea, Cuba and Russia)  I watched a story about the problems of incarcerated men on the communities and families they leave.  His take was we need to figure out how to distinguish "those we are afraid of from those we are just mad at." Some, including me, think we should increase the number by adding more white-collar criminals.

Elected officials who want to lower the prison population or don't support stiff sentences lose elections for being soft on crime.  Recidivism rates are high, rehabilitation services scarce and drug use rampant.  How can we lower our costs while protecting citizens?  The proper size for this part of government is a tough call.   Suggestions?   
 
Education: On healthcare visits, I often encounter foreign personnel, especially Pilipino.  I always question them on their origin and educational background.  Those of foreign birth are typically recruited just after medical training.  All of those I have met are now US citizens or on a path to citizenship.  All are glad to be here and become Americans in every sense of the word.  I end these discussions by thanking them for letting me "interrogate them"(get a lot of laughs), welcoming them to the US and saying, "Good for you; shame on us for not being able to educate enough of our own people as healthcare workers."

Many years ago in a teacher in-service a reading professional gave us this take.  He said that, over 20 years, test results show that overall student reading performance has improved slightly despite widespread public criticism.  During the same time period, the problems student bring to the classroom, economic and familial, have made students more difficult to work with.  He concluded we need to do better, but all things considered we were gaining ground.  I wouldn't be surprised to find this is still true, slight gains on a more difficult student body.

We need to work on effectively and reach.  How to improve is highly contested.  I view education as an ounce of prevention, but quality is key.  I rarely question the wisdom of expenditures.  However, we may be overtesting, not have good tests for true quality and tightening budgets are helping the situation.

Science research:  Only government can fund research that may point out problems with corporate interests.  With pesticides, manufacturer are only required to test chemicals for 90 days.  It is still very expensive.  A small experiment with glyphosates conducted over two years indicated problems.  But the sample size, 200 rats, is too small for definitive conclusions.  Government should fund a larger version with multiple species to more clearly determine possible effects.  Nobody else can muster the funds to do so and it is important, even if they find the stuff is not dangerous.  These studies are usually funded by grants, competitively selected by quality of design and usefulness of the question they are attempting to answer, submitted by independent researchers and there results are subject to peer review and our scrutiny.  I think we should be spending as much as we can afford on this endeavor.  It also provides well paying jobs.

Infrastructure:  Ever watch the disaster shows on infrastructure like bridges, pipelines, sewage systems and the power grid? Improving infrastructure provides well paying jobs as well as promoting economic growth and personal safety.   Remember, more spending is bigger government.

Overall, shrinking government is problematic.  If the budget is cut by a billion dollars, government doesn't shrink by a billion.  There are lost wages of direct and indirect employees and business owners (think lower tax revenue), increases in unemployment compensation and disruption of personal lives by stress and financial woes.

What other components of big or small government have I overlooked?  Which are your pet peeves?  What would Lincoln do?  What would Jesus do?

Offline JohnyMac

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Re: Would smaller government be a good thing?
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2015, 01:42:39 PM »
 :popcorn:
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chenmi

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Re: Would smaller government be a good thing?
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2015, 03:42:28 PM »
JohnnyMac, lol.  It did get long.  Government is soooo big it is hard to keep the topic short.

However I'd like to read your thoughts even if it is just on one point.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 03:46:09 PM by chenmi »

Offline JohnyMac

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Re: Would smaller government be a good thing?
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2015, 04:30:55 PM »
chenmi, for right now I am going to sit back and watch hence :popcorn:

Being an admin, I don't want to jump ahead of other forum members who may want to comment on your post.

I will write though: This is more of a prepping site than a debating site. PREPCOM tries to keep it around 50% prepping 30% on news and current events and the remaining 20% on fun stuff.

Worth stating though; the size of government is certainly a good topic for discussion especially in a post SHTF and worse of calamities a TEOTWAWKI scenario.

Have at it ladies and gentlemen.  :trolling:


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Offline thatGuy

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Re: Would smaller government be a good thing?
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2015, 06:16:17 PM »
I'm only a Moderator so I'll bite,

the TSA, without them who would have stopped Richard Reid or Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab?

For realsies?


 

Offline JoJo

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Re: Would smaller government be a good thing?
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2015, 07:56:11 PM »
Here's my opinion
Eliminate the EPA. Give half of the money saved to the states to set up their own agency (each state has different problems) the remainder to lower the budget
 
Eliminate the Dept of Education. Give a one shot deal of 1/2 to the states and 1/2 to balance the budget. The federal government doesn't belong in our schools

Elininate the National Labor Relations Board. They're a bunch of thugs. Remember Boeing.

Sell off a major portion of federal owned land.

Lease oil drilling on Federal owned land.

Go to a flat rate income tax.

I could go on and on
In principle, no less than in practice, socialism is the ideology of thieves and tyrants.

Offline JohnyMac

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Re: Would smaller government be a good thing?
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2015, 07:57:40 PM »
TG & JoJo

Good stuff!  :thumbsUp:
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brat

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Re: Would smaller government be a good thing?
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2015, 09:49:08 PM »
Yes for smaller federal government. Why, because when I read the Constitution, it says so, period.

Our founding fathers wrote that nagging, thorn in the side of progressives, little old Constitution to do just two things:

* Create a federal government for the United States of America
*Delegate to the federal government certain, limited (and enumerated) powers.

The federal government was created by the states, thru the Constitution, to serve those same states. They are only supposed to have the power spelled out and those given/delegated to them by us. The states are supposed to be the "boss". The states (that's us) "employed" the federal government and determined the rules as to how it should operate. That thorny Constitution is a list of all those rules. Just as any manager is expected to enforce company rules to manage employees, any teacher is to enforce school rules, it is the responsibility of the states to enforce the Constitution to manage the federal government. Have the states failed, horribly. Why, the dangle of money, apathy and shear laziness to name a few.

The Constitution does not give you rights. Back to the founders, they considered your rights to be "God-given" or "natural rights" — which means you are born with all your rights. The Constitution, however, is supposed to protect your rights by limiting the powers of government by granting to it only those specific powers that are listed in the Constitution (this has not gone too well lately) and too specify certain, specific rights which you retain thru the Bill of Rights. 

Those first 10 amendments, the Bill of Rights, were penned by James Madison in response to calls from several states for greater constitutional protection for individual liberties. Hence the Bill of Rights lists specific prohibitions on governmental power.  It also says that, even though a particular right is not listed in the Bill of Rights, you still retain that right.

So, without the Constitution, the states and the people have all the rights and there is no federal government. With the Constitution, the states and the people keep any rights not specifically delegated to the federal government by the Constitution. The Constitution states this very clearly. Another reason this document is so despised by so many with their own agendas.
 
If those incredibly wise drafters and ratifiers of the Constitution could have in their most drunken, their most hallucinogenic opiate induced stupor, in their wildest dreams EVER, have foreseen the size and scope of the current federal government, do you think they would have been more definitive in limiting federal powers?   :fuckYeah:  I often wonder if they are turning over in their graves knowing what all has happened and going "I sacrificed for this ?".

Do you think that this (the current gigantic bureaucracy) is what the drafters of the Constitution had in mind? I seriously doubt it. They didn't want yet another all powerful "king", whether a person or gov't. They intended each state (the people) to determine their course.

Has that often pointed to "promote the general Welfare" part of the preamble been twisted beyond belief to achieve federal gov't agendas ? That don't even deserve an answer..... Started with FDR and apparently there's no end in sight. Madison warned what to expect if this General Welfare clause was ever interpreted too broadly, he was prophetic. "It would subvert the very nature of the limited (read SMALL) government established by the people of America."

   
So, it's official and non-debatable (as far as it applies to me), smaller federal gubment for brat. Other than outlined above, the "legal" citizens of each state should decide what's best for them and how to deal with it. JMHO.

Like JoJo said,

Quote
each state has different problems




That's All I Have To Say About That- Forrest Gump Quote


 

Offline Kbop

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Re: Would smaller government be a good thing?
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2015, 10:26:49 PM »
I'm only a Moderator so I'll bite,

the TSA, without them who would have stopped Richard Reid or Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab?

For realsies?


the TSA aka Grandma Gropers is proof UBL won.
Oh yeah, small gobment is good gibment :thumbsUp:
- do you think our population is able to take responsibility for itself?  Going cold turkey off a nannystate could be painful.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 10:33:17 PM by Kbop »

Offline JohnyMac

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Re: Would smaller government be a good thing?
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2015, 08:45:38 AM »
Quote
Kbop wrote:
the TSA aka Grandma Gropers is proof UBL won.
Oh yeah, small gobment is good gibment :thumbsUp:
- do you think our population is able to take responsibility for itself?  Going cold turkey off a nannystate could be painful.

"Grandma Gropers" you are a hoot Kbop! I remember once MrsMac and I were flying somewhere and she was wearing her insulin pump in a garter under her dress. She told the TSA lady that she had a insulin pump and it would set off the metal detector.

Well the TSA told her it would not set off the alarm so she passed through and of course it set off the alarm. The TSA lady asked her to go through again and of course it went off again.

You folks don't know MrsMac so let me tell you she has a short fuse with stupid shenanigans. Well she lifted her dress over her head and in a raised voice said, "You are clearly an idiot...I told you I had a fucken insulin pump in a garter on my leg!"

Well a supervisor ran over, asked her to put down her dress and gently escorted her to the side. He was very nice and apologized profusely. Me...I was off to the side busting a gut laughing.

Ahaaa brat. That old dusty collection of papers that constantly gets in the way of Progressives and Marxists "good intentions". Thinking back to my 8th grade civics class, the federal governments responsibilities revolved around:

> Protecting it's borders in America and across the oceans, e.g. ships, embassy's, etc.,
> Raise army's to aid in protecting the nation,
> Settle disputes between states, and
> Formulate and negotiate treaties with other countries.
> What did I miss?

Now the states and local communities were responsible for everything else like:

> Building and maintaining roads,
> Levy taxes to pay for public works such as roads, police, fire wagons, etc,
> Courts & jails,
> Etcetera...

I am surprised that Kentactic hasn't commented on this subject.   ;)  :hiding:

 



 
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chenmi

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Re: Would smaller government be a good thing?
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2015, 07:53:35 PM »
Brat, I read your post and agree with everything in principle.  Then when I stated looking at my list for places to shrink the federal government.  I see reasons I'd keep much of the services and functions because I think they benefit me, all of us, or a group I would like to see get that benefit (ie: not a veteran, but support veteran's benefits).  I occasionally scoff at people who, for example, like electricity but oppose a transmission line near them.  "Not in MY backyard."  Smaller would be better, but not MY programs. 

Several thoughts guide my search for a reasonable opinion to suggest as policy.  The devil is always in the details.  If it was an easy problem, it would already be solved and we wouldn't be having this discussion.  The founding fathers fought like cats and dogs over the details to come up with the compromise we call the Constitution.  I doubt the opposing sides thought it was a monolith.

Let me take a stab at one, the EPA.  The complex world is a complex place where it is possible for actions in a relatively small area to affect a much larger region.  Examples. Acid runoff or heavy metal ion from power plant ash can affect a river that flows for thousands of miles far beyond the borders of a state or ground water that creep under the landscape for 100's of years.  Sulfur in coal power plant emmisions damages forests miles away and acidified the rain which acidifies lakes and streams.  The acid levels affect the reproduction of many aquatic species.  Heavy metals in river and lake sediments still plague many watershed and find there way into our food chain.  Drinking wells in some areas are tested and found to have dangerously high levels of chemicals.  When the activities that caused these problems where started, nobody knew the long term consequences.  How could they have?  Gradually effect started to occur and increased with increases in the to-be-problem activity.  Eventually someone notices a problem.  Some one/group figures out a possible sources of the problem.  Then enough people/groups and government officials have to be convinced that the activity is really responsible for the problem.  (All this time, the activity continues, the effects get worse and in many cases the solution gets hard to accomplish.)  Finally, enough of the policy makers recognize the problem and curtail or regulate the activity causing it.  Sometimes they fund temporary or permanent solutions and/or damage compensation.  Sometimes the damage can't be fixed in any reasonable amount of time.

There are huge number of chemicals use in modern life and more are discovered and put into use all the time.  The harmful effects are often subtle.  How some chemicals affect us is not known, just that if one is exposed one's chance of a particular cancer doubles from say 1% to 2% and the other 98% are seemingly unaffected.  Research to prove or disprove connections is expensive.  Corporations have been known to deny to problem and block regulation by any mean$ available until it was painfully obvious to nearly everyone what the problem is and we need to do about it.  Suddenly my willingness to shrink the federal government, at least the EPA, wanes.  What if each state had to fight each battle?  What if one state doesn't agree while the problem crosses state lines?  Perhaps this falls could loosely under  "settling disputes between states."

The part of big federal government that troubles me most is that with it comes big bureaucracy or extreme concentration of power and authority.  Big bureaucracies are slow. The proper speed is an opinion and in any one example some folks will want faster and others slower.  Thank God for freedom of speech and freedom of the press.  (excluding Citizens United)   




« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 08:09:44 PM by chenmi »

Offline rah45

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Re: Would smaller government be a good thing?
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2015, 01:55:45 AM »
I think he raises an interesting point. When the Founders made the Constitution, they could not have foreseen the global ramifications of things like massive toxic dumps spanning miles of land and water and drastically, negatively affecting nature, or nuclear weapons able to kill millions with one man's push of a button. I wonder what their proposal would have been.

Alexander Hamilton not included.