Oath Keepers is going operational

[Kentactic]

I'm sure the economy has driven some into the military.  But believe it or not, it's not all about money.  When i went in there was a war going on.  Did I want to go over there?  Hell no.  Was it popular to be in the military?  Hell no.  Did the military pay any kind of living wage?  Hell no.  It isn't always about money.  There are other reasons that come into play.

If you've never felt those reasons than they are hard to explain.  Some do, some don't.  I'd say that most don't these days.  Most didn't in the 1770's either.  That's not any type of put down or attack on the way people feel today.  Just kind of the way things have turned out.  Probably by someone's design.

I know the exact feeling you speak of. That feeling drives me to do anything it takes to stay away. If I were homeless on the street and a cop was begging me to work for them at 100k a year, that feeling would give me the strength to say go fuck yourself. That feeling drives me to stand strong and proud to my values at all costs. To never give in to temptation and step on other Americans constitutional rights in order to "get by". That feeling dosent influence me to go help a tyrannical government. I don't see how it ever could.

[USMC0331]

BTRS

[USMC0331]

@kentactic
Unless you are not paying your taxes you are right there with that jack booted thug.

[special-k]

BTRS

http://www.allacronyms.com/BTRS

??

[USMC0331]

BTRS

http://www.allacronyms.com/BTRS

??

Better to remain silent

I response in anger with confrontational language that serves no one. I will try to make the point latter when I have time.

[Colombo]

I can see this thread probably going the same way the boston bombing thread went very soon.

As I see it oath keepers is a high profile group and therefore somewhat limited in the public positions they are inclined to take in order to avoid pissing off a good chunk of their membership. They are already walking a fine line by trying to represent both military and law enforcement as well as active and retired from both.  Not to imply anything deriding any group but the many points of view are inherently different and more than occasionally at odds.

As for the "new idea" in my opinion it's just a progression of P.R. to keep the membership happy that something is happening with the group and the group is "current". The reality of implementing this is going to be a horror show that runs the full range from infiltrated cluster fuck all the way to effective cell organization. The alphabets may take the potential threat very seriously and expend considerable numbers of agents as infiltrators and significant  resources cultivating C.I.s and employing surveillance and tracking.

Best group possible in my opinion is not a part of a national anything but just a group of locals who have known each other, the longer the better. The model presented is certainly a viable (even if a bit presumptuous)  but way too rigid to properly adapt to local situations. I fear time may be wasted trying to "fill" positions. I also have a bit of a problem with the idea of a dividable 12 man team as a standard due to the increased trail/signature presented as well as the value of that size target. I personally believe the various old school vietnam style S.F. team structures would be much more effective and safer from catastrophic loss for their communities.

I really hope this thread doesn't blow up.

[crudos]

Good post Colombo.

[rah45]

Just a reminder regarding any further posts,

UCP Code of Conduct

Violations of forum rules are subject to disciplinary actions by moderators or the forum owner. The following activities undermine the productive and peaceful operation of this forum, and are forbidden:

3. Displaying blatant disrespect or otherwise negative behavior targeting other members, including racist, sexist, religious or political attacks.

You do not have to agree. We all have different opinions. However, members of UCP will show each other respect. Be nice, or don't post. If you have a serious disagreement, take the argument to PMs. If the problem persists, seek a moderator for mediation to resolve the issue. Thanks! 

[Deathstyle]

Wait is like the thread that killed Straightprep? Oh goodie! I missed that one and didn't get to see all the drama. 

[JohnyMac]

Good post Rah! Lets keep it civil.

I agree with that Colombo wrote.

Best group possible in my opinion is not a part of a national anything but just a group of locals who have known each other, the longer the better. The model presented is certainly a viable (even if a bit presumptuous)  but way too rigid to properly adapt to local situations.

Remember what happened to Randy Weaver who just attended a few Aron Nations meeting's. They were being infiltrated BIG TIME.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge

There is a lure to be hooked up with a group however it is better to start your own group so you know who is in it.

[USMC0331]

The leaderless revolt?  Doesn't work.

[sledge]

IDK.  I reread the posts and didn't see anyone not showing respect or giving reason for the mods to step in with suggestions on being nice.  Just two or three guys with different views on service and answering questions on their point of view.

Unless there were some deleted posts that I missed I'm not seeing what all of that was about.  I guess that I missed the powder keg because it's not in the posts that I reread.

Non the less I'll play nice.  What can I add to that, hmmmm,  I Love You Guys!  No homo.

[USMC0331]

They probably assumed my edited post (removed) was a personal attack, which it wasn't but felt it better to say something and play it safe just in case.  It's a good warning considering the edited post just to be safe IMO.

I was going to go back tonight and point out the hypocritical points that some where making about LEO/MIL not being able to serve and obey the constitution (which they can't) but figured it was not worth the trouble.

The point I would make is that NO ONE is without sin and should not be casting stones at LEO/MIL if they are not standing up for their constitutional rights either.

Like not needing a CCW license to carry concealed or a DL to drive a car, or paying taxes to a govt that does not represent them or being forced into Obamacare, or have their lives data mined without warrant, etc, etc, etc...

Just like an LEO having to compromise absolute constitutional theology to keep their job, we all do the same to stay out of prison. 

Just because the USSC says something is the law of the land does not mean it's a valid law if it's not a right given to the feds and is a state matter. 

Until you are ready to die (or be locked up) for your constitutional rights that are being violated everyday, I'd give a little slack to the guys taking bullets to keep some order in the world.

The alternative is to remove all the remaining good cops from the force and see how long it takes for the bad ones to really get out of hand.

[Kentactic]

They probably assumed my edited post (removed) was a personal attack, which it wasn't but felt it better to say something and play it safe just in case.  It's a good warning considering the edited post just to be safe IMO.

I was going to go back tonight and point out the hypocritical points that some where making about LEO/MIL not being able to serve and obey the constitution (which they can't) but figured it was not worth the trouble.

The point I would make is that NO ONE is without sin and should not be casting stones at LEO/MIL if they are not standing up for their constitutional rights either.

Like not needing a CCW license to carry concealed or a DL to drive a car, or paying taxes to a govt that does not represent them or being forced into Obamacare, or have their lives data mined without warrant, etc, etc, etc...

Just like an LEO having to compromise absolute constitutional theology to keep their job, we all do the same to stay out of prison. 

Just because the USSC says something is the law of the land does not mean it's a valid law if it's not a right given to the feds and is a state matter. 

Until you are ready to die (or be locked up) for your constitutional rights that are being violated everyday, I'd give a little slack to the guys taking bullets to keep some order in the world.

The alternative is to remove all the remaining good cops from the force and see how long it takes for the bad ones to really get out of hand.

The difference between a civillian and LEO/MIL is a civillian is sacrificing their own rights to survive. LEO/MIL are taking other peoples rights to recieve personal gains. There's nothing in the constitution that says you must exercise all of your rights. However taking away/restricting others rights for personal gain is the definition of tyranny.

[USMC0331]

Very good point Ken!  I had not looked at it that way before.

[Colombo]

The leaderless revolt?  Doesn't work.

Absolutely correct, however the flip side of central planing from afar is just as myopic due to the opponent faced. Use the template provided by oathkeepers with the option to fit it to your communities situation and available qualified people (proper and irregular cell structure presents more problems for counter intelligence and infiltration). I would like to see a quieter and more clandestine element presented as well. Leaders must be chosen with great care and an understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of the irregular troops we are talking about (inflexible, authoritah, and those used to the unquestioning carrying out of orders will not work with this kind of American guerrilla force like it or not). The oathkeepers idea has merit if it is implemented with an understanding of the security danger of any kind of contact with any significant area leadership for obvious reasons (one more related piece I strongly disagree with is the idea of some of the entire group as a locally politically active part due to the ease of identification of associates, the local political arm should be unaware of ANY fighter and direct support types in the group). One and only one piece of dogma should be endorsed (and in all probability will not) Work at your groups level and abilities to the goal of meeting at the other side then fine adjusting the course we set out on securely amongst friends when the enemy has been defeated. The rivalry and constitutional dick measuring can wait.  Until our community gets this solidly in our heads we have a serious problem.

Just a few of my initial thoughts on implementation.
Feel free to curse me out, share, or anything in between.
Colombo

[Jeremy Knauff]

Its almost taboo to question a man for serving. But today... why...

Use your head. Why serve? Because people believe in the fundamentals that this country was founded on. You could very well have asked the same question of being an American. After all, if you hate what America has become, why bother trying to fix it, just go somewhere better.

Most of us, on the other hand, love this country enough to bust our asses and make the sacrifices needed to fix it.

So to answer your question "Why serve?" ?if you don't understand, it can never be explained to you. You either get it or you don't.

[Jeremy Knauff]

Show me a cop who only enforces constitutional laws and ill show you an unemployed cop. Anyone who swears to uphold the constitution CANNOT be a cop.

Let's try not to paint every one in a particular group with the same brush. There are a lot of tyrannical cops, but there are also a lot of legit ones.

http://youtu.be/q1G1IscWi58

[Jeremy Knauff]

Here's another for ya'

http://youtu.be/Y3bg2C3ly3w

[special-k]

@ Jeremy

Yeah, I saw that one back when it happened.  But do remember, this is a rare case of 1 in a 100 IMHO.

[Jeremy Knauff]

I agree the ratio of good to bad probably sucks, but it does us no good to piss on the good ones. Just my 2 cents.

[USMC0331]

Here's another for ya'

  That was hard to watch.  Props to the Deputy especially for not letting the old codger steal their handouts.

[USMC0331]

Absolutely correct, however the flip side of central planing from afar is just as myopic due to the opponent faced.

Meaning that because of the .gov's ability to track down any leadership would stomp out the fire before it could catch?  Without a vision and a leader(s) to direct can you obtain anything larger than small unit anarchy? 

I'm no history buff but I don't know of any freedom fighters that won their fight without leadership and usually the support of an already existing .mil regime that joined their cause in a coup.

Use the template provided by oathkeepers with the option to fit it to your communities situation and available qualified people (proper and irregular cell structure presents more problems for counter intelligence and infiltration).

Does anyone believe that there is a substantial number of "freedom fighter cells" in America today?  OathKeepers is a "big name" in this area and they are only 30K strong?

Are we really suppose to believe there are or will be a substantial number of people willing to fight an insurgence against the .mil to restore the Constitution to America?  I just don't see it.   If there are millions of secret guerrilla fighters hiding in the woods, what are they waiting for?  The frog is boiling to death already.  Without the .mil or local LEOs (largest standing army in the states) stepping up for the rights of their citizens, there is really no chance of rag-tag group of patriots organizing.  That's where OK's idea of integrating with the local LEO is a good idea I feel.

I would like to see a quieter and more clandestine element presented as well. Leaders must be chosen with great care and an understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of the irregular troops we are talking about (inflexible, authoritah, and those used to the unquestioning carrying out of orders will not work with this kind of American guerrilla force like it or not).

I don't understand your point here. Please clarify.

The oathkeepers idea has merit if it is implemented with an understanding of the security danger of any kind of contact with any significant area leadership for obvious reasons (one more related piece I strongly disagree with is the idea of some of the entire group as a locally politically active part due to the ease of identification of associates, the local political arm should be unaware of ANY fighter and direct support types in the group).

Unless you have been off grid for the past 10 years, you are easily found and already identified.

One and only one piece of dogma should be endorsed (and in all probability will not) Work at your groups level and abilities to the goal of meeting at the other side then fine adjusting the course we set out on securely amongst friends when the enemy has been defeated.

Other side of what?  What's the goal if there is no leadership outside of local groups?  Other side of the revolt?

The rivalry and constitutional dick measuring can wait.  Until our community gets this solidly in our heads we have a serious problem.

Again, I don't understand the reference.

[USMC0331]

I can see the OK method working well in SHTF (economic collapse) to provide community security in augmentation with local LEO. Some interesting lessons to be learned from the Mexican example if you can watch the whole thing.

http://youtu.be/a6dETs540NA

[Colombo]

I'm not endorsing any action, these are just my thoughts and speculation. An exercise if you will.

Absolutely correct, however the flip side of central planing from afar is just as myopic due to the opponent faced.

Meaning that because of the .gov's ability to track down any leadership would stomp out the fire before it could catch?  Without a vision and a leader(s) to direct can you obtain anything larger than small unit anarchy? 

I'm no history buff but I don't know of any freedom fighters that won their fight without leadership and usually the support of an already existing .mil regime that joined their cause in a coup.
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It's no longer a matter of tracking down but just snatching and crossing off a list for whatever accusation they choose to give to the media. National leadership will not work any better here than overseas when it gets hot. Before hand there's some room for general advice and getting some templates out there but those people/high value targets will not make it beyond the opening moves. As for the "freedom fighters" of the past there are none that I can think of that were faced with the kind of situation here, scale, resources, balkanized populace, but most importantly the massive initial resources and moves from the regime that become almost immediately taxed due to total area, numbers, backlash and public opinion. Of course all national coms are toast for anyone even drifting slightly off approved script at the point the regime decides overt actions begin.

Use the template provided by oathkeepers with the option to fit it to your communities situation and available qualified people (proper and irregular cell structure presents more problems for counter intelligence and infiltration).

Does anyone believe that there is a substantial number of "freedom fighter cells" in America today?  OathKeepers is a "big name" in this area and they are only 30K strong?

Are we really suppose to believe there are or will be a substantial number of people willing to fight an insurgence against the .mil to restore the Constitution to America?  I just don't see it.   If there are millions of secret guerrilla fighters hiding in the woods, what are they waiting for?  The frog is boiling to death already.  Without the .mil or local LEOs (largest standing army in the states) stepping up for the rights of their citizens, there is really no chance of rag-tag group of patriots organizing.  That's where OK's idea of integrating with the local LEO is a good idea I feel.
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There doesn't need to be but a small handful due to the absolute paranoid fear and over reaction shown already by the powers that be. Boston, dornier, Miriam Carey, the vets visiting memorials...  each of these incidents provoked such a poorly thought out disproportionate response that future incidents will cause more dissent and swell the ranks of affected citizens resisting further. It always starts small and oppression becomes the standard. The majority of secret guerrilla fighters don't know their guerrilla fighters yet, they merely keep their heads low, go to work, and try to get by. They will become more and more resistant to subjugation thru petty less dangerous means of non reporting of blackmarket activities, tax evasion, pointing the wrong direction when questioned or "didn't see nuthin", some pushed to far will progress to more active resistance. The frog you mention is already boiling merrily and the bureaucrats are grinning and confident while untold numbers of eyes are watching both the pot and the "cook". I feel somewhat saddened by the obliviousness of most law enforcement and the likelihood of there missing the bus so to speak but this has been repeated constantly in history, they for the most part seem to follow their leaders until those leaders have suddenly disappeared and the locals are coming to express some strongly felt grievances.

I would like to see a quieter and more clandestine element presented as well. Leaders must be chosen with great care and an understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of the irregular troops we are talking about (inflexible, authoritah, and those used to the unquestioning carrying out of orders will not work with this kind of American guerrilla force like it or not).

I don't understand your point here. Please clarify.
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There will be need for those not on any radar whatsoever for reasons that I will not talk about. Feel free to take that any way you want. As for the leaders of any forces of resistance, this will not resemble any civil war seen in history. The fighters available will range from actual combat vets to widowed housewives, most being somewhere in between. These are not for the most part capable of use as line troops. They are for the most part not even good for day trips and carefully thought out strikes against unconventional targets like support and resources. The best use for most would be sabotage of the system thru "incompetence" Going toe to toe will lead to ugly slaughters and an already filled quota of propaganda for the gov-media.

The oathkeepers idea has merit if it is implemented with an understanding of the security danger of any kind of contact with any significant area leadership for obvious reasons (one more related piece I strongly disagree with is the idea of some of the entire group as a locally politically active part due to the ease of identification of associates, the local political arm should be unaware of ANY fighter and direct support types in the group).

Unless you have been off grid for the past 10 years, you are easily found and already identified.
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Doesn't mean you make it easy for them to bag one obvious leadership group throwing the area into leaderless chaos. I would like to see several "cells" (for lack of a better word) in an area just for the continuity of operations that will have very negative effects on evaluation and assignment of resources by the oppressors. Political activism is great particularly if it works but these people are not very hard to follow, watch, and collect information on their friends and associates, why make it easier?  As for me and your 10 year point, I'm toast already and I know it, they just haven't tossed the dirt on the box yet.

One and only one piece of dogma should be endorsed (and in all probability will not) Work at your groups level and abilities to the goal of meeting at the other side then fine adjusting the course we set out on securely amongst friends when the enemy has been defeated.

Other side of what?  What's the goal if there is no leadership outside of local groups?  Other side of the revolt?

The rivalry and constitutional dick measuring can wait.  Until our community gets this solidly in our heads we have a serious problem.

Again, I don't understand the reference.

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The crystal ball is hazy as to what. That there are major changes coming I doubt any would disagree. The question of "what?" should perhaps be to what extent will the coming unpleasantness devolve, to what point will the participants be willing to go, how long can the participants hold out, there are just too many variables and unforeseeable events. As I see it in all revolutions peaceful or contested there is more than two sides, allies are found even if they don't want the exact same results, just look to the time and bickering it took after the revolutionary war to come up with and put into effect the short and relatively simple founding documents of this country.

I'm not endorsing any action, these are just my thoughts and speculation. An exercise if you will.