Unchained Preppers
General Category => News & Politics => Topic started by: Well-Prepared Witch on July 08, 2016, 07:17:39 AM
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I want to start by saying that I do NOT condone or approve of shooting cops. I don't like cops and what they represent these days, but I do know we need law enforcement and cold-blooded murder is not the way to accomplish positive change. I just wish we could trust our cops to actually care about the well-being of the people they're supposed to serve and protect instead of be power-tripping, systemically racist instruments of corporate greed whose purpose is to charge people money, lock them up in a corporate-ized prison system, and/or just take notes after crimes happen like they do now.
That said, I'm shocked it took this long for people to start responding to the epidemic of the murders and harassment of African Americans by LEOs with coordinated violence. I'll be interested to follow the news on this particular story. It certainly is another shot across the bow of the simmering civil war that a lot of us see coming.
ETA: I will say that the first reaction most of the cops had when the shooting started was to protect the protesters and get them out of harm's way.
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It also illustrated the futility of people "armed" with handguns trying to go up against someone armed with a modern long gun.
if you carry a pistol and someone shows up with an AR or AK or G3 and starts engaging you, if at all possible run
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Just learned of this about 15 minutes ago.
MrsMac and my prayers goes out to the families of the 12 shot.
May I suggest that we need to wait for all of the info to come in before we offer any armchair quarterbacking .
It looks like it is chaos at the moment in Dallas.
Reminds me of John Ross's Unintended Consequences.
Let the Games begin.
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What happened in Dallas is tragic. I have a friend that I train with and respect greatly that is a DFW officer.I am directly concerned for him and his family.
No matter what anyone opinions are of police in general, they are people with families that love them.
I believe in the principle of "you reap what you sow". If you treat the police like crap or go into any encounter with police in a negative manner you are likely to have that kind of interaction. If you go into it open minded, like you would want if it was you having to do that job then you have a much better chance of it being at least not a negative experience. If your attitude if F this guy before he even opens his mouth what do you expect to get back.
I know as friends and have multiple family that are either local, state of federal LEOs. They are all just people doing their best to do their jobs. If you dont like what they represent or what they are enforcing then hate the administration/system that has them doing that job. In any profession there are shit-bags and this runs true in law enforcement as well, but the majority are good people doing their best. No one deserves what happened in Dallas.
This administration is doing its apparent best to divide tis country both racially and against LEOs. Lets just pray this isnt the beginning of what many see coming......civil war.
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Well said CJS06 but let me add an opinion. Sending LEO's to do battle without protective equipment just because it might offend someone is criminal.
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I agree with what CJS wrote and especially his closing line, "This administration is doing its apparent best to divide t[h]is country both racially and against LEOs. Lets just pray this isnt the beginning of what many see coming......civil war."
IMO, the current group of Elites we have in DC are trying to drive a wedge between all factions to in fact cause a Civil War. The reason is that when Americans pull together nobody can beat us. Divided, the Elites can put a final nail in the coffin of our Republic becoming a Statism/Facist government (http://www.againstcronycapitalism.org/2014/02/are-fascism-and-socialism-opposites-or-2-sides-of-the-same-coin/).
Civil war IS coming.
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Well said CJS06 but let me add an opinion. Sending LEO's to do battle without protective equipment just because it might offend someone is criminal.
I couldnt agree more!
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Civil war IS coming.
I agree... Sadly all of the events of this last week are stepping stones leading us closer and closer.
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Irony
[ahy-ruh-nee]
noun, plural ironies.
1. the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning: the irony of her reply, “How nice!” when I said I had
to work all weekend.
2. Literature.
a technique of indicating, as through character or plot development, an intention or attitude opposite to that which is actually or
ostensibly stated. (especially in contemporary writing) a manner of organizing a work so as to give full expression to contradictory or
complementary impulses, attitudes, etc., especially as a means of indicating detachment from a subject, theme, or emotion.
3. Socratic irony.
4. dramatic irony.
5. an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been, expected.
6. the incongruity of this.
7. an objectively sardonic style of speech or writing.
8. an objectively or humorously sardonic utterance, disposition, quality, etc.
Isn't it ironic that BLM protesters, people protesting the police: ran from the shooter while the police ran towards the shooter to protect the protesters. Many of the police ran towards danger with only a handgun and a soft Kevlar bullet proof vest which is worthless against rifle rounds.
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I was not surprised at all.
The inflammatory rhetoric from Obama and his political allies made this almost unavoidable
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I am praying for those effected by this.
There is no excuse for an act like this. Criminal acts are criminal.
JM I share your view on unintended consequences.
This is another example of repeating history.
Timothy mcveigh committed an awful crime. Yet it cannot be discounted that without Ruby Ridge and Waco. He may not have done what he did.
We need to face the inconvenient truth that there may be a problem with the use of deadly force by a small section of our Law Enforcement people.
This does carry the concern of causing a major devide between sectors in our society.
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It also illustrated the futility of people "armed" with handguns trying to go up against someone armed with a modern long gun.
Also illustrates the benefit of handguns instead of rocks or sharp sticks.
Nemo
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If you don't like what they represent or what they are enforcing then hate the administration/system that has them doing that job.
Very well said.
There are literally millions of interactions between citizens and police every year. The overwhelming majority end peacefully. Funny the media only reports what suits the agenda. I suggest that before judging "all" cops categorically as bad, perhaps one should get the courage to swear the oath, put on the shield, work in their shoes and run towards the danger.
In any profession there are shit-bags
Amen
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We need to face the inconvenient truth that there may be a problem with the use of deadly force by a small section of our Law Enforcement people.
Agreed Gadget.
As to not judging them all, how am I to understand which armed person who can kill me or deny me my liberty with little repercussion is going to just give me a ticket and which will pull out a gun and shoot me? I'm in a privileged position as a white, middle class CIS woman and I feel uncomfortable around cops. Imagine being a black male.
The issue is that this is systemic and cultural in police departments across the country. They train their officers to look at citizens as the enemy, not people to be protected. It needs to change.
That said, as I think the response of the cops in Dallas so eloquently shows, most people go into policing because they want to serve their community. They are mostly good folk doing the best they can, but the power imbalance between cops and other citizens, their training, their superiors, and the justice system are so screwed up right now that it undermines their good intentions.
No matter what you think of cops, though, cold-blooded murder is not only WRONG, immorral, and cruel, it is also counterproductive.
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The issue is that this is systemic and cultural in police departments across the country. They train their officers to look at citizens as the enemy, not people to be protected
Based on what document-able proof ? I never received any such training in 30 years. Nor did I in the FBI Academy. Nor did I at the Northwestern School of Police Staff and Command. Nor did I in any other training from over 20 documented agencies in 7 different states. So it is not systemic for departments as a whole. I can't speak for each and every dept., but I really doubt they "train officers to look at citizens as the enemy" now.
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While I'm sure your Google-fu is as strong as mine, here's a little reading for you.
http://www.vox.com/2015/5/28/8661977/race-police-officer (http://www.vox.com/2015/5/28/8661977/race-police-officer)
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/2014/07/02/seven-reasons-police-brutality-is-systematic-not-anecdotal/ (http://www.theamericanconservative.com/2014/07/02/seven-reasons-police-brutality-is-systematic-not-anecdotal/)
http://www.vox.com/2015/3/3/8143859/ferguson-police-racism-justice-department (http://www.vox.com/2015/3/3/8143859/ferguson-police-racism-justice-department)
http://www.columbia.edu/itc/journalism/cases/katrina/Human%20Rights%20Watch/uspohtml/uspo17.htm (http://www.columbia.edu/itc/journalism/cases/katrina/Human%20Rights%20Watch/uspohtml/uspo17.htm)
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/05/where-blacks-suffer-under-stop-and-frisk-on-steroids/371869/ (http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/05/where-blacks-suffer-under-stop-and-frisk-on-steroids/371869/)
https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/181312.pdf (https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/181312.pdf)
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/tavissmiley/interviews/institutional-racism-in-police-departments-panel-discussion/ (http://www.pbs.org/wnet/tavissmiley/interviews/institutional-racism-in-police-departments-panel-discussion/)
I could keep going, but I think you get the idea.
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Oh, and that's before you take into account the incentives cops and DAs and such get for filling the corporate prison pipeline.
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For you folks like me - OLD... a CISgender as in CIS woman means:
Cisgender
an adjective for someone whose gender corresponds to their assigned sex
I am perfectly comfortable identifying as the gender my parents put on my birth certificate. I am cisgender.
[url]http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cisgender[/url] ([url]http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cisgender[/url])
Just trying to help you out brat :walkingstick:
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I have friends that Police Officers. So I need to declare that I personally believe that the vast majority are good people working to serve and protect
We are seeing rifts in our society that are worrisome.
So while expressing concern over use of deadly force in this day and age. I am not I'm anu way slamming law enforcement.
Peace all.
Sorry.. Need to add a bit more to my post.
We are living once again in a time where we are being divided by many influences.
This is not rare and unique. This has happened repeatedly throughout history and will happen in the future.
Each time this happens the populace is faced with choices. Either to act as thinking and reasonable people to heal the devices. Or to allow the influencing puppetmasters to continue to exacerbate the situation and devide our society even more.
It is to early to say which way things will go in this instance. Yet I do wish to express my reasoned view.
Not all cops are bad. Yes there are worrisome issues on the use of deadly force that need to be examined and worked through.
We need to examine the legal system and current laws to see if society has went to far in terms of what we consider as wrong behaviour. No correct answer to this one, yet our society does forget to do sense checks at times.
We need to ensure our children understand that the world has always been a place where bad things happen and it will always be so. This has somehow been lost inodern society. I fear that most people in modern western society actually believe that the natural state of affairs should be closer to the eutopian viewpoint. Sorry to say it but that will not happen without a major evolutionary change in humans.
Is what has been happening a signal for the coming of Shtf? It is possible yet at the moment unlikely as the prime cause of a major problem. I do however worry that the current issues can contribute along with other things to a cascade of events that bring on a larger whole that impacts society.
I am cool though. We are prepped and can keep our heads down to ride out a storm.
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Whew…. Took a little bit to read all that stuff.
Absolutely none of these show/document there is currently any training being done by departments to make citizens the enemy. If there were any such training, I submit, with over 950,000 thousand officers, there would be more than a few articles to read and substantially more that l000 people a year as “victims”. A couple of the articles affirmed what the NIJ report shows (based on officer’s opinions), that there are many departments that could use some diversity, deescalation and cultural training, more importantly, stronger supervisors and policies that deal with abuses quickly and affirmatively. Is more oversight needed? I think so when policies and supervision are lacking. That’s the point where individual officer’s decision come to play. Either they have precise rules to follow and know the consequences of their decisions or they fall into their agencies’ police cultural trap of what is acceptable.
Then there are the Vox articles, but I digress.
https://www.quora.com/Media-Business-in-2015-How-credible-are-articles-on-vox-com (https://www.quora.com/Media-Business-in-2015-How-credible-are-articles-on-vox-com)
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/375600/vox-explained-patrick-brennan (http://www.nationalreview.com/article/375600/vox-explained-patrick-brennan)
Anyway, the NIJ/DOJ report was an interesting read, but limited, since it was based on phone surveys of only 925 out of more than 950,000 officers from just over 100 agencies out of over 5,000. Rather small sampling to make broad brush stokes, but you got to start somewhere. This report is also now 16 years old and a whole bunch of stuff has changed since. Would love to see a follow up report done with bigger sampling and differences between accredited agencies vs. non accredited (accredited agencies are mandated to have much more training and more detailed policies and procedures), sampling between the agencies involved in the most recent incidents vs. those who have not had issues. Wouldn’t that be a good report….. What are these agencies doing right that the rest of you need to get on board with? More importantly, what policies/procedures have failed that need to be revised? This is important because Baltimore was an accredited agency. But that’s big brother for you, speaking from experience where I served on a NIJ/DOJ executive board for seven months before our work was published.
But using what we got, the NIJ/DOJ did reveal that the use of force is a relatively rare occurrence in American policing, but that previous studies suggest that when it does occur, it may escalate to the level of excessive force. Responses show that most police officers in the United States disapprove of the use of excessive force.
Since the report was done in 2000, the question is what happened with these results and what if anything was initiated or implemented? If nothing, another wasted taxpayer expense and you have to ask could the recommendations (regardless of the fiscal issues for agencies) have prevented any actions since?
But everyone is human and subject to human mistakes. The stakes just happen to be higher when it involves emergency personal, doctors, etc. Speaking of doctors…...
To keep things in perspective, the Washington Post and Guardian are tracking all of the police involved deaths. The Post reported that in 2015 there were less than 1,000 people killed by law enforcement despite the millions of contacts with individuals. Only 90 were “labeled” unarmed (explained later in a link). However, there are some 400,000 people killed each year by medical malpractice. Maybe the doctors are the one’s who need to be feared the most. But that won’t fit the agenda. Then you have to ask, with mandated health care and more people being forced/taxed to get insurance and (according to my doctors) increasing the number of people seeking medical care, will these numbers go up?
http://www.healthcareitnews.com/news/deaths-by-medical-mistakes-hit-records (http://www.healthcareitnews.com/news/deaths-by-medical-mistakes-hit-records)
Then we can’t leave out impaired driving, one death every 53 minutes. That’s 9,916 deaths per year. When are we going to address these people killing innocent folks driving down the road minding their own business? The needless property damage and rise in our insurance rates?
http://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/impaired_driving/impaired-drv_factsheet.html (http://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/impaired_driving/impaired-drv_factsheet.html)
Then we can’t deny the agenda.
http://www.dailywire.com/news/7264/5-statistics-you-need-know-about-cops-killing-aaron-bandler (http://www.dailywire.com/news/7264/5-statistics-you-need-know-about-cops-killing-aaron-bandler)
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2016/02/08/black-and-unarmed-behind-the-numbers?ref=collections#.7qhEj1YPT (https://www.themarshallproject.org/2016/02/08/black-and-unarmed-behind-the-numbers?ref=collections#.7qhEj1YPT)
And what may be an underlying cause in the way some people are treated vs. others.
http://www.amren.com/news/2015/07/new-doj-statistics-on-race-and-violent-crime/ (http://www.amren.com/news/2015/07/new-doj-statistics-on-race-and-violent-crime/)
And as this report so eloquently states...”members of any group (or community) will ultimately be affected by the actions of the other members within that group (or community)”. This would include police and how they are viewed as a whole and not individuals.
https://infogr.am/Black-34991937313 (https://infogr.am/Black-34991937313)
As the investigations continue into Sterling and Castile, there’s new video out (released by USA Today) that (depending on which side of the isle you sit) seems to corroborate the officers involved with Sterling and in MN they were stopped in relation to a nearby robbery, https://www.facebook.com/MNBCA/posts/10154398683668701 (https://www.facebook.com/MNBCA/posts/10154398683668701)
the broken tail light was probable cause to stop and investigate. Could the officer reasonably believed he was stopping an armed robber given they were within blocks of the scene when stopped? There was NO concealed carry permit ever issued to Castile according to Ramsey County Sheriff’s office. None of this information is presented to justify the tragedy. However, the viral videos that sparked outrage didn’t tell us what happened – it showed us the aftermath, and only one side of the story. Our brains all have a form of narrative bias where we fill in the blanks surrounding an event for which we don’t have information.
I won’t even bother to go into the dangers of traffic stops as this is already too long.
So if anyone wants to hate on cops, I don’t care. But I know there’s no training to make the citizens the enemy. You have your opinion, just like I have mine. It’s still a free country, basically, at least until November. Just don’t ever dial 911 or break any traffic laws and you’ll be safe.
Me, I’m gonna go with the probabilities and worry about doctors and drunk drivers.
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The issue is that this is systemic and cultural in police departments across the country. They train their officers to look at citizens as the enemy, not people to be protected
Based on what document-able proof ?
Situational awareness + hypervigilance + definition of a suspect
these are all documented. I think when you combine this with human psychology you have an answer.
i work with LEO's on a weekly basis - have for years. All the ones i have met in that position are hardworking decent people.
having said that - just like military personnel - you develop a mindset attached to your desire to do your job and still survive. Police have a tough job - split second decisions can have drastic consequences.
At least in the military i could relax a bit while in a FOB or CONUS. Police persons don't have that option.
I haven't seen videos of LEO's gunning down random person's just getting along. I see higher stress situations where something (no assertion of how or who escalated here) caused an interaction. At this point, it would seem all bets are off.
situational awareness training - for those who don't know - involve training scenarios like a simple traffic stop. You don't know if a person was speeding just cause they were in a hurry or just robbed a bank. 99 out of 100 times it is just someone headed home from work who wasn't paying attention. that last case can get you killed as a LEO. So every situation has to be handled with caution. In the 1980's the VR trainers used a mix of no-shoot and shoot training exercises (fancy videogame like training). As of about 5 years ago at least two different PD's stopped the no-shoot part because of time constraints. each scenario is one where you just pick the correct moment to shoot. - patterned response training.
The problems here are enormous. if you are the LEO, and the person you just pulled over is behind on his child-support, he might act like a person who just committed a serious crime. The civilian doesn't know why he got pulled over and the officer doesn't know why the driver is acting in a stressed manner. In our current climate you have the civilians wondering if the policemen pulling them over aren't going to just shoot them - so they instantly act in a stressed manner or even hostile. I was at a picnic with co-workers and got to hear one of my friends give his son 'the talk' about how to interact with police, so as not to get shot or arrested. I'm white, my coworker and his family are black. I had never even considered the necessity to have to do something like that. Where he lives, the relationship between the police department and the citizens have been fraught of late.
documented - standard police training syllabus. ingrained perception of minorities (racism) (and LEOs) and other demographic biases (classism) (fear of foreigners - read possible terrorists, the not we), et.al. Human psychology.
IMHO
there isn't a nefarious plot by LEO's to 'hunt and kill'. There isn't a bullseye on every LEO's back.
- for the 99% of LEO's and civilians.
The rhetoric used to discuss these issues could lead you to believe that policemen are in more danger than ever before - that isn't true. the number of officer deaths per year is recorded. Even with Dallas, the number is lower than the 1990's. The number of civilians killed by the police are 'not published'. The FBI does record the statistics but will get rather twitchey when asked to publish these in a public forum. the recordable number of civilian deaths at the hands of the police has gone up. Some good shoots some not.
you can document the odds of a combat tour casualty vs living in a large city and being shot. Another statistic that is disturbing is the fact that all US citizens are more likely to be killed by LEO's than by terrorists (threat perception) - change the demographic reporting and if you are white you are safe. If you are black and live in a US city you are more likely to die by violence - all kinds - than any other cause. This goes a long way to show the mind set of LEOs and civilians. The person recently killed in MN was exercising his 2nd amendment rights and at first glance, seems to have been killed for it.
There is a problem when patrolling the streets of Kabul is safer than walking through some neighborhoods in large 1st world cities. Yes i know its a cliche, but it is an apt one.
the answer probably lies with both groups. but i'm not wise enough to figure out a solution.
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Based on one degree in police science and later on a law degree and doing primarily criminal defense for near 15 years, dealing with cops from probably 40 different departments from way out in the woods to big city agencies, I firmly believe there are 2 general personalities who grow up and want to be cops.
The first is the high school wimp who is continually harassed, teased and bullied as he grows up. When he graduates (higher percentiles) he goes on to become a cop to get his revenge on all those who bothered him growing up.
The other is high school bully who grows up and realizes that as he gets out of high school (lower than average percentiles) he is no longer the tough kid on the block and becomes a cop to continue his "tough guy" status.
I do believe there are a couple dozen "good cops" in the country but have so far only had the chance to meet a few of them.
Nemo
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When you have multi-Cultural-ism the people all want their own laws. They don't consider themselves AMERICANS but african-American, muslim-American or any other hyphenated American. They see laws they don't feel support the way they want to live as raciest. That's why we get the term Racial Profiling, there is no such thing as racial profiling it is simply Profiling.
If you walk into a bar looking for a fight you will definitely find one and if a person walks into a room looking for a raciest you also will find one even though they weren't there before you entered.
The Government has separated our people into groups and even sub groups for voting but mostly for control. It's both parties, they want power for themselves and their hyphenated groups. Separate the people and LEO's from the people. There is a term for that it's called DIVIDE AND CONQUER.
Do I have an answer NO and neither does HiLAIRy. I don't know who does but I am positive who doesn't.
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I have read with interest everyone's writings. In essence I think we alL agree that 99% of the police around the country are good and will not use lethal force unless warranted.
With that written I personally have seen police use excess force right in front of me. So it does happen.
Lets move from police to the shooter.
WARNING WILL ROBINSON...WARNING :tinfoil:
The media is calling the shooter a coward and a terrorist. IMO, they are miss representing him. He in fact had a shit-ton of courage to do what he did, knowing in the back of his mind that there was a high probability he would not survive the action. In essence he was a Guerrilla Soldier, executing an action, we have seen over and over again around the world through-out history.
The sad thing is Guerrilla warfare has now come to the shores of America.
I suspect that we have only seen/experienced the beginning of our brave new America. This type of warfare will escalate to the point where it will NOT be a lone soldier but a tactical team. From that point a squad and platoon can not be that far off.
As this warfare spreads through-out America, the bourgeois will demand that "government" do something. And of course the Elites will accommodate with more loss of liberties, which in essence, will solidify their roles as Elites and our rulers.
Old Ben Franklin comes to mind, "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
:tinfoil: WARNING IS OVER
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People are led by the media and government to believe criminals are cowards and stupid. Guess what they're not. It takes courage to break into someone's house knowing they more than likely are going to protect their home or hold up someone on the street. That's why crime is lower in areas where guns are leagle to carry.
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Well-said, JohnnyMac. I agree.
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And now some cops are arresting people for complaining about them on social media. Death of free speech anyone? (To be fair, some of the posts were threatening, but I don't see the cops freaking out about the jerks over at Reddit, for example, and some of the awful things they say.)
https://theintercept.com/2016/07/12/after-dallas-shootings-police-arrest-people-for-criticizing-cops-on-facebook-and-twitter/
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This doesn't surprise me. If in fact these men are charged with a crime, I hope the ACLU comes to their rescue.
We must realize that the attack on the BoR's (Bill of Rights) continues. It is no longer just the 2A under attack but the 1A, 4A, 5A and 8A.
Read and understand them. https://ratical.org/co-globalize/BillOfRights.html