Poll

Would you vote based on the candidate most likely to win, or based on your principles?

I would vote for the candidate most likely to win, who was most in line with my principles.
I would vote for the candidate who seems to best represent my principles.
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Author Topic: Will your vote be principled or for the winnable candidate  (Read 1618 times)

Offline JohnyMac

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Will your vote be principled or for the winnable candidate
« on: January 16, 2012, 11:52:47 AM »
Maybe this question / post should be a poll?  :)) What ever here is the question I pose to the group:

Should we vote for people based on whether they are winnable or on principle?

IMO I think you should vote for the candidate that is most in-line with your principles that is winnable. Now of course you must have a debate with your self first to determin what that "winnable" candidate looks like.  :))

In our history there has been many third party candidates: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_party_(United_States) and I realize that we are not in a third candidate position- Yet- but I thought I would bring it up.  :))

Now I really like Paul with everything he represents with his commitment to the US Constitution and personal liberties. With that said, I do not like his foreign policy leaning's or his perpepsity to throwing Israel under the bus. I also think he does a poor job communicating his beliefs and opinions. This alone will make him a poor candidate against a slick talker like Barry.

Quote
Eric Dondero, former aid to Paul was reported to say:  
?He wishes the Israeli state did not exist at all. He expressed this to me numerous times in our private conversations. His view is that Israel is more trouble than it is worth, specifically to the America taxpayer. He sides with the Palestinians, and supports their calls for the abolishment of the Jewish state, and the return of Israel, all of it, to the Arabs.?


http://www.theblaze.com/stories/ex-aide-to-ron-paul-makes-stunning-claims-about-old-boss-anti-israel-911-truther-doesnt-believe-u-s-had-any-business-fighting-hitler/

So there you go ladies and gentleman. Not trying to stir up a hornets nest here. Just thought it would be an interesting topic to debate over.  :))
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Offline crudos

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Re: Will your vote be principled or for the winnable candidate
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2012, 11:59:56 AM »
I think one should always vote on principle, even if my candidate doesn't win. Hate getting caught up in the whole "voting for the lessor of two evils" conundrum.
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Offline Outonowhere

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Re: Will your vote be principled or for the winnable candidate
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2012, 12:09:53 PM »
Quote from: crudos on January 16, 2012, 11:59:56 AM
I think one should always vote on principle, even if my candidate doesn't win. Hate getting caught up in the whole "voting for the lessor of two evils" conundrum.

AGREE.  SETTLE FOR CHAINS OR CHOOSE FREEDOM.  THE CHOICE IS YOURS.

I for one will vote on principle whether a "gun is held to my head or not" no matter what anyone says about that person's ability to "win". 

I WILL VOTE AS A FREE MAN.  No matter what the outcome is, I will be able to say I did what I could.  I can't be held accountable for the actions of any sheep, lemmings, of ostriches...

Die on your feet or live on your knees.

Personally I hate kneeling, its hard on the knees.....



/endrant
LLTR
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Offline sledge

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Re: Will your vote be principled or for the winnable candidate
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2012, 12:12:10 PM »
I understand and admire people who vote on principal.  Especially, when I agree with those principals.   :)  Where I differ is that I think in terms of reaching goals.  The goal here being to return to strict adherence to the Constitution.  That is not going to be accomplished in this election regardless of who wins.  Just as we didn't move away from the Constitution in one election. 

Voting on principle even though your candidate can't win may give you the righteous ability to complain after the election.  But it doesn't give you the ability to reach your goal in steps.  And that is the only way that reaching the goal is going to happen.

Just my opinion, everyone has one.
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Offline Outonowhere

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Re: Will your vote be principled or for the winnable candidate
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2012, 12:16:30 PM »
Quote from: sledge on January 16, 2012, 12:12:10 PM
I understand and admire people who vote on principal.  Especially, when I agree with those principals.   :)  Where I differ is that I think in terms of reaching goals.  The goal here being to return to strict adherence to the Constitution.  That is not going to be accomplished in this election regardless of who wins.  Just as we didn't move away from the Constitution in one election. 

Voting on principle even though your candidate can't win may give you the righteous ability to complain after the election.  But it doesn't give you the ability to reach your goal in steps.  And that is the only way that reaching the goal is going to happen.

Just my opinion, everyone has one.

I can see what you are saying but I cannot see how we can be taking any steps towards the going with anyone in the field, save Paul.  It is essentially Obama, Obama light, or Paul.  Of course I personally believe that WTP's votes matter not anymore anyway so I plan to vote on my principle and continue to prep.  Hell, we could end up like Greece or Egypt by the time Nov rolls around way things are going...


Oh well, keep stacking!
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Offline special-k

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Re: Will your vote be principled or for the winnable candidate
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2012, 12:16:52 PM »
I think that not voting purely on principle has, in part, led us to our current situation.

If people don't see fit to vote for Ron Paul, they deserve Obama!

BTW, to hell with Israel...on so many levels!  (let the smitings begin)
« Last Edit: January 16, 2012, 12:31:26 PM by special-k »
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Offline sledge

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Re: Will your vote be principled or for the winnable candidate
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2012, 12:32:28 PM »
Quote from: Outonowhere on January 16, 2012, 12:16:30 PM
Quote from: sledge on January 16, 2012, 12:12:10 PM
I understand and admire people who vote on principal.  Especially, when I agree with those principals.   :)  Where I differ is that I think in terms of reaching goals.  The goal here being to return to strict adherence to the Constitution.  That is not going to be accomplished in this election regardless of who wins.  Just as we didn't move away from the Constitution in one election. 

Voting on principle even though your candidate can't win may give you the righteous ability to complain after the election.  But it doesn't give you the ability to reach your goal in steps.  And that is the only way that reaching the goal is going to happen.

Just my opinion, everyone has one.


I can see what you are saying but I cannot see how we can be taking any steps towards the going with anyone in the field, save Paul.  It is essentially Obama, Obama light, or Paul.  Of course I personally believe that WTP's votes matter not anymore anyway so I plan to vote on my principle and continue to prep.  Hell, we could end up like Greece or Egypt by the time Nov rolls around way things are going...


Oh well, keep stacking!


I'm looking at a big picture and this is what I see.  We are a center left nation that has let things slip way from us by not paying attention to what a corrupt Government is doing.  So the situation got worse and worse until we reached the point that we are at now.  It's gotten so bad that people everywhere are paying attention because the Government's actions are affecting them.  That's why there has been a strong resergance to move back to the Constitution.  And it will keep growing.

It's not possible to correct the entire situation in one election.  Not even if Paul could win which is not even a remote possibility at this time.  ( Don't kill the messenger for telling the truth.)  Has Ron Paul laid a groundwork?  Yes.  But our hope rests in the next wave of up and coming politicians.  I'm talking about Rand Paul, West and a few others.  As this ground swell for a return to the Constitution continues to grow they will be the ones who are actually able to accomplish the goal.   
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Offline rah45

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Re: Will your vote be principled or for the winnable candidate
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2012, 12:38:18 PM »
Well Johny, you know which choice I made.  ;)

I wish you'd started your anti-Ron Paul link in a separate thread, but I'll respond here.

I do not know if everything that Eric Dondero said is true or not, and neither do you. There is no video or written evidence supporting his claims. However, I'll address the major foreign policy issues he describes. Ron Paul has always said that he does not believe that fighting a war without an official declaration of war by Congress is Constitutional. That was his objection to the 9/11 retaliations. Regarding opposing going to war against Germany in WWII, we did not have to fight Hitler or rush to save the Jews. The Germans could never have taken Europe, pursued Britain, resisted the Russians, held onto Africa, contested the Atlantic AND invaded American territory with the resources and manpower they possessed. The Jews faced what the true liberty-loving Americans now may have to face - their own government leading sheeple against them in a time of troubles. What happens to us is decided by us - we make our own fate. The Jews had plenty of time to prepare, to escape, to resist (you think that 1,000,000 armed Jews resisting would not have been a truly awesome sight to behold?), but they stuck their heads into the sand until it was too late. Some even retained hope after their comrades were taken away and they were living in gulags. Britain and France were the same way...they stuck their heads in the sand and had earned what came to them. History repeats itself - the weak will fall in the face of a stronger force. Those nations, at that time, were weak in their resolve. Hitler never had a hope of directly threatening anything American except our shipping, and we had an ample navy to take care of that. In funding Russia's defense and later offense, we gave them the power to challenge us with nuclear weapons up until the fall of the Iron Curtain.

In the Middle East, the British used their influence to forcibly expel a people from their land in order to place another people there. If that had been done to us, we'd feel the same way the Palestinians do. Israel is hated by other countries not because they are "innocent" and "chosen by God," but because they stole the homes and country of a Muslim people. We are hated partly because we provide those people who stole this land an unbreakable defense against the people who want to retake their land. This has caused a great deal of animosity towards us in the Middle East, and is a major reason why we have conflict there. What logical (not religious) reasons can you give for defending Israel? She has proven the ability to defend herself, she has nuclear arms and American technology, and she will act intelligently in her own defense. She is not a sheep among wolves. She is an armed fortress surrounded by the sea. She may be battered, but if she is determined and intelligent she will hold. If "God Almighty" truly does want to save her, He sure as hell does not need Americans to do it. If his thoughts can produce a universe, they can surely protect a small country on a small portion of a small planet in a small solar system. American lives and dollars should be spent HERE, not over there. Our influence should not attempt to control what occurs over there or anywhere else where we are not directly threatened. History has proven time and again that we cause more problems than we solve. Why don't you look at how many conflicts Switzerland has entered in the past century? How has it affected them negatively? It hasn't. They're a strong fortress against which even Nazi Germany deemed too costly to assault. Strong people take care of themselves and earn their right to exist. Weak people who ignore what is happening or convince themselves of something other than reality will, and always have, fallen under the boots of the evil that walks the earth. You cannot change history. You cannot change human nature. You CAN help change our choices as Americans. Vote on PRINCIPLE. Everything else makes us weak, and we will fall as history foretells.
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Offline Outonowhere

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Re: Will your vote be principled or for the winnable candidate
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2012, 12:49:53 PM »
I agree to a degree Sledge, there's no miracle cure for the cancer that's taken over this country.  My personal belief is that I we are farther down the line than you might admit and that even with the Paul's and time we still would not be able to completely rid ourselves of the cancer before the house of cards fully collapses.  I plan on voting and voting on principle.  I will do whatever I can to reinstate the glory of the Republic as it was and should be and resist tyranny in whatever way I can.  But I'm not gonna sit in my cabin and listen to the music as the ship is taking on water, and I am not going to pretend that eating a few chocolate coated pellets of rat poison will cure the cancer.  The big picture as I see it is grimmer than what you described.  But I'm still gonna stay true to my principles through it all cause in the end that is what makes YOU, YOU.
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Offline sledge

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Re: Will your vote be principled or for the winnable candidate
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2012, 12:54:12 PM »
Rah, Same goal, different path.  One will work, one will not.  I'm going with the one that will work.  I don't have the time left to be voting on principal when it will cost the election and put me further behind in reaching the goal when a strategy is the only way to do so.

That may make me "weak, or unprincipaled, or unpatriotic" in some eyes.  But it makes me smart enough to know how to have a chance to reach the goal rather than complaining about it later. 

I'm not saying RP supporters aren't smart.  They are smart enough to know what the goal should be which puts them ahead of the masses at this point.  But they're idealism will prevent them from reaching the goal.

Much love.   :) 
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Offline JohnyMac

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Re: Will your vote be principled or for the winnable candidate
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2012, 03:46:33 PM »
Rah, man you sound like my dead father. My father was totally against Israel and always equated it to the Federal Government giving New Jersey to a religious group. He equated the Palestinians as NJ citizens trying to take back the state. Thinking back we had some great debates.

In 1972 I tried to join the Israeli army during the Yom Kippur war- I was seventeen. I contacted the local Jewish consulate in Philadelphia to find out how and was told they wouldn?t even talk to me unless I got a notarized letter from my parents. Well that didn?t happen.  :))

I am a Christian; maybe not the best one on this forum or in the state of Rhode Island. Hopefully you can see my passion for the state of Israel and the Jewish people.

I suggest that you read these three books:

Exodus, By Leon Uris (Read or watch the movie- Of course the book is better)
Unintended Consequences by John Ross (I think I sent that one to you)
Exodus, As found in the Bible.

There is a lot of other books I could direct you too however this is a good start. 

Now Sledge, I agree with most of what you wrote. This statement put a smile on my face:

Quote
?I'm not saying RP supporters aren't smart.  They are smart enough to know what the goal should be which puts them ahead of the masses at this point.  But they're idealism will prevent them from reaching the goal.?

With caution I would also like to say that with 56 years under my belt I have realized that you can not always get to the summit of the goal in one shot.

A goal of mine was to buy a sail boat and live on it- Hopefully sailing around the world. Well it took 9 years but my wife and I bought our sail boat and we sailed around the US. Ok we didn?t go to Tahiti but we did sail up and down the west coast and up into British Columbia. We sailed up and down the east coast too.

A goal of mine was to own a big ass piece of property in PA. complete with a log cabin. This was a lifelong dream from when I was 12 or so. Well it happened. It took a few years but it happened.

The goal* to returning to the US Constitution is an admirable one. Allot more important then my two earlier frivolous goals I might add. I share that goal* with you and every Paul supporter on this forum and around the country. With that said, like what Sledge wrote, this will not happen over night.

The important thing is that you and others don?t loose your passion for this goal*. Work towards the goal* but understand it may take several elections.

Old JohnyMac will shut up now.  :))

goal*: Please notice I purposly wrote goal and not dream. Little boys dream about
          revolution and men strive towards a goal.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2012, 06:49:50 PM by JohnyMac »
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Offline RS762

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Re: Will your vote be principled or for the winnable candidate
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2012, 03:56:22 PM »
The Good Ol' Blaze.
Typical Neo-Con feeding trough, no better than AIM or Fox itself.
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Offline JohnyMac

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Re: Will your vote be principled or for the winnable candidate
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2012, 04:37:07 PM »
ES, I love ya' like a brother :))

As a matter of fact I love all of ya' like a brother. I wouldn't mind sharing a fox hole with anybody on this forum or even better a glass of beer- Sam Adams of course.  ;)
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Offline Reaver

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Re: Will your vote be principled or for the winnable candidate
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2012, 05:15:40 PM »
My mind & actions are already set on a collapse.

So if RP doesn't get in I'm withholding my vote. If that causes Osama bin laden to win again.
So be it.

I'm prepped for a numerous amount of situations anyway. Send it.
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Offline JohnyMac

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Re: Will your vote be principled or for the winnable candidate
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2012, 05:20:38 PM »
RvR, withholding your vote for President is cool. Just do me a small favor: Pls still vote. Even if you do a write in for Ron Paul.
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Offline Reaver

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Re: Will your vote be principled or for the winnable candidate
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2012, 05:35:08 PM »
Quote from: JohnyMac on January 16, 2012, 05:20:38 PM
RvR, withholding your vote for President is cool. Just do me a small favor: Pls still vote. Even if you do a write in for Ron Paul.


Was thinking about doing that... My wife mentions doing that as well. 
That will probably happen JM  [URL=http://www.smileyvault.co
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Offline rah45

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Re: Will your vote be principled or for the winnable candidate
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2012, 06:01:36 PM »
JMac, I am not against Israel. What happened in the past happened, and they are a good people, from what I've seen. They were forcibly displaced by their own people, then they forcibly displaced another people, and call that righteousness. I call it bullshit. They saw an opening for some real estate courtesy of Britain and the U.S., and they jumped on it with everything they had. To parallel a Franklin quote: They have a nation, if they can keep it.

I'm actually going to start another thread concerning the support of Israel.  ;)
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Offline JohnyMac

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Re: Will your vote be principled or for the winnable candidate
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2012, 06:29:30 PM »
Cool Rah... [URL=http://www.smileyvault.co

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Offline crudos

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Re: Will your vote be principled or for the winnable candidate
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2012, 06:41:54 PM »
Quote from: rah45 on January 16, 2012, 06:01:36 PM
JMac, I am not against Israel. What happened in the past happened, and they are a good people, from what I've seen. They were forcibly displaced by their own people, then they forcibly displaced another people, and call that righteousness. I call it bullshit. They saw an opening for some real estate courtesy of Britain and the U.S., and they jumped on it with everything they had. To parallel a Franklin quote: They have a nation, if they can keep it.

I'm actually going to start another thread concerning the support of Israel.  ;)

Much to the chagrin of the people already on the real estate.  [img]http://www.smileydesign.n

Not trying to start an argument, just saying though.... :))
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Offline rah45

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Re: Will your vote be principled or for the winnable candidate
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2012, 06:57:01 PM »
Quote from: crudos on January 16, 2012, 06:41:54 PM
Quote from: rah45 on January 16, 2012, 06:01:36 PM
JMac, I am not against Israel. What happened in the past happened, and they are a good people, from what I've seen. They were forcibly displaced by their own people, then they forcibly displaced another people, and call that righteousness. I call it bullshit. They saw an opening for some real estate courtesy of Britain and the U.S., and they jumped on it with everything they had. To parallel a Franklin quote: They have a nation, if they can keep it.

I'm actually going to start another thread concerning the support of Israel.  ;)

Much to the chagrin of the people already on the real estate.  [img]http://www.smileydesign.n

Not trying to start an argument, just saying though.... :))


No doubt! I have said many times that I complete understand the Palestinians' anger, and would feel the exact same way if it happened to me.
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Offline EJR914

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Re: Will your vote be principled or for the winnable candidate
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2012, 12:16:58 AM »
?Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost.? -John Quincy Adams
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