Policemen

[pkveazey]

Before I start this, I must tell you that I have many Policeman friends. Some are close friends and some are acquantances and I have met and chatted with our County Sheriff and several of our County Deputies. Fortunately, the ones I've come in contact with are OK, but you have to remember that they are people just like you and me. Some are saints and some are assholes. Now, on to what I want to pass on. This Covid BS has moved us into a semi-police state and its only going to get worse. What I'm about to say is not legal advice. Its just me repeating what I have heard Lawyers say. First, if you are pulled over by a Policeman, be polite or at least businesslike. Don't argue with him. Arguing is the same as poking a snake with stick. They will always ask you if you know why they pulled you over. ALWAYS say, "No sir, I don't". If you get a cop who is on a fishing expedition, he might ask if you have any weapons in the car or if he can search your car. BAM!!! You have just run into an asshole. Politely tell the officer that he didn't pull you over to see if you had a weapon in the car or to search it so please discuss whatever the traffic stop was for and nothing else. Now, keep in mind that the clock is running. The instant the policeman utters his first words to you, you need to say what time it is. If he is wearing a body camera, you will have documented the time of the stop. He can only Detain you for as long as it takes to perform the stop and either issue you a ticket or let you go. Most traffic stops average 15 to 20 minutes. If you get a jerk who decides to search your vehicle and you refuse and he says that he will call for a K9 unit, then tell him that the clock is running and holding you for more time than it takes to issue you a ticket will be an Illegal Detention. Now, if the K9 unit is 2 blocks away, you're going to have a problem saying your detention was illegally extended. Next, when you are told to do something, shut up and do it. If you are moved more than a few feet from the point of detention, it can be a Defacto Arrest. If you are not a threat to the officer and they place restraints like handcuffs on you while you are being detained that also can be a Defacto arrest. If he places you in a police car with or without restraints, that's definitely being moved more than a few feet away from the point of detention and is a Defacto arrest. The officer can get in deep hot water from a Defacto arrest. If you happen to get stopped by a "Bully with a Badge", you can bet that he is going to let his pride make decisions for him and he will almost certainly violate one of your civil rights. If you are certain that one or more of your civil rights has been violated, tell the policeman that you would like to call the FBI to report a violation of a Federal crime under Title18 section 242 of the United States Code. If he says "NO" and prevents you from reporting a crime in progress you might be able to add Obstruction of Justice to the charge. If you contact the FBI to report a violation of Title 18 Section 242 you should also mention to the FBI that Title 28 Section 1361 compells them to act. I personally have the regional FBI Field Office phone number programmed into speed dial. I also carry a printed copy of Title 18 Section 242 in my wallet at all times. Now, the laws that I have mentioned are CRIMINAL offenses and qualified immunity does not apply. However you can also still try to go for a Civil Lawsuit if you want to.

[JohnyMac]

Good stuff.

[Jackalope]

    Reads like legal advice...Let's see PK, you're advising folks to contact the FBI?   Personally, I have no interest in stirring up a hornet's nest by contacting an agency that no longer follows the rule of law.  You actually expect the FBI to be unbiased and to perform a thorough investigation?

[grizz]

In this state its law that you need to inform any leo if you are CCWing IF the contact between you is in a professional capacity. In other words, if you pass an officer while pumping gas or in a store you do not need to mention this to them, even you you just say hi. But if they confront you for whatever legal or professional reasons you must let them know.

One example - I was helping a guy get his car out of a ditch, I was rolling around in the snow/mud trying to figure out a the removal and the officer rolled up to offer assistance. After it was over I apologized for not mentioning it earlier but I am CCWing, and I wasn't too sure if I even had to mention it in this particular situation because it wasn't related to any crime. He took a step back with open eyes and said YES, you always need to let us know at first contact. He actually looked a little scared

I always do and has always ended with very positive results. Then again we are a very pro 2A state.

[pkveazey]

    Reads like legal advice...Let's see PK, you're advising folks to contact the FBI?   Personally, I have no interest in stirring up a hornet's nest by contacting an agency that no longer follows the rule of law.  You actually expect the FBI to be unbiased and to perform a thorough investigation?

Its 2nd hand legal advice. Here's the rub. If you know your rights and don't screw it up, you can get the Bully to realize that he won't be standing in front of a local Judge that he probably has Thanksgiving Dinner with. When you think you might be drug outside your comfort zone, you think twice about how you procede. Going the Civil Lawsuit route is iffy because some judges still like to say they have Qualified Immunity from Civil Lawsuits. As for the FBI being corrupt, I won't argue that point. They are corrupt. However, there is no love lost between the Feds and the Locals. If you don't like the FBI, you can go through the US Marshalls Service. I carry a clip on Body Cam with me at all times. You'd be surprised at how often the Policemans Body Cam video dissapears. If you report the Federal Violation and nothing comes of it, just send copies of your video to all the major News outlets with a copy of Title 18-242 attached.

[pkveazey]

In this state its law that you need to inform any leo if you are CCWing IF the contact between you is in a professional capacity. In other words, if you pass an officer while pumping gas or in a store you do not need to mention this to them, even you you just say hi. But if they confront you for whatever legal or professional reasons you must let them know.

One example - I was helping a guy get his car out of a ditch, I was rolling around in the snow/mud trying to figure out a the removal and the officer rolled up to offer assistance. After it was over I apologized for not mentioning it earlier but I am CCWing, and I wasn't too sure if I even had to mention it in this particular situation because it wasn't related to any crime. He took a step back with open eyes and said YES, you always need to let us know at first contact. He actually looked a little scared

I always do and has always ended with very positive results. Then again we are a very pro 2A state.

In Virginia, we are a one party State. Meaning that only one party must know that a recording of any type is being done. Also, the Sureme Court has ruled that video recording of anything that occurs in public is protected under the 1st amendment. It is also important to know the 1802 Sureme Court ruling in Marbury vs Madison where they ruled that any law that violates the Constitution is INVALID and SHALL NOT BE INFORCED.

[RB in GA]

I have known a lot of police over the years, including my late father, and most were the type that weren't going to be "generous or forgiving" to someone they see as the equivalent of a jailhouse lawyer. In certain areas you'd be asking begging for trouble, and wouldn't be able to do anything until well after the fact.

I remember the old saying "you catch more flies with honey (or, in some cases, bullshit)", which goes hand in hand with my dad's favorite saying "Boy, don't let your mouth overload your ass".  In other words, unless you want your 15 minutes on youtube, use psychology, read the target, and stay level-headed when dealing with basically anyone, but especially the law.
Just saying...

[grizz]

I have known a lot of police over the years, including my late father, and most were the type that weren't going to be "generous or forgiving" to someone they see as the equivalent of a jailhouse lawyer. In certain areas you'd be asking begging for trouble, and wouldn't be able to do anything until well after the fact.

I remember the old saying "you catch more flies with honey (or, in some cases, bullshit)", which goes hand in hand with my dad's favorite saying "Boy, don't let your mouth overload your ass".  In other words, unless you want your 15 minutes on youtube, use psychology, read the target, and stay level-headed when dealing with basically anyone, but especially the law.
Just saying...

 

[pkveazey]

I have known a lot of police over the years, including my late father, and most were the type that weren't going to be "generous or forgiving" to someone they see as the equivalent of a jailhouse lawyer. In certain areas you'd be asking begging for trouble, and wouldn't be able to do anything until well after the fact.

I remember the old saying "you catch more flies with honey (or, in some cases, bullshit)", which goes hand in hand with my dad's favorite saying "Boy, don't let your mouth overload your ass".  In other words, unless you want your 15 minutes on youtube, use psychology, read the target, and stay level-headed when dealing with basically anyone, but especially the law.
Just saying...

A lot of the information I posted came from a very close friend who has now retired as Chief of Police in a City of about 50,000. Some of the other information came from several Policemen I used to have breakfast with before I went to work each morning. The rest I got from reading the Law and my State's Constitution and the US Constitution. My Father once asked me why I didn't become a Lawyer and I told him that I wasn't Sleezy enough to be a Lawyer.

[Nemo]

why I didn't become a Lawyer and I told him that I wasn't Sleezy enough to be a Lawyer.

Hey Hey I represent that remark.

Nemo 

[pkveazey]

why I didn't become a Lawyer and I told him that I wasn't Sleezy enough to be a Lawyer.

Hey Hey I represent that remark.

Nemo 

Bwahahaha.... Then you are probably aware that there are a lot more Lawyer Jokes than Engineer Jokes.

[RB in GA]

Hey Pk, I wasn't saying your not right, I agree with you.   But my point was that regardless of whether you're in the right or not, you're not the (possible) jackass with the badge, who has the option to detain you for 48 hours in some places for just thinking you're looking at him cross-eyed. You may very well win in the end, but what will it cost you?  Lost time, wages, etc. 

About 20 years or so ago I was travelling back from seeing a gal on the gulf coast.  Back then I had hair down about my buttcrack and was pretty much looking like your prototypical biker (the irony of that is that I was a social worker-lol). Anyway, I got stopped randomly by the State troopers. Here's pretty much how the dialogue went:
Them: "Afternoon sir, we're doing random stops. You haven't broken any laws, but do you mind if we search your car?  We have a K9 unit a few miles from here and they can be here very quickly, and then you can be on your way."
Me:   "Sure thing, go ahead." 
Them: "Are you armed?"
Me: "Not on me, but there's a .45 under the jacket on the passenger seat". (The look on his face was classic)
Them: "Why?"
Me:  "Last time I went to the coast I had a dude break into my car. I caught him doing it and he pulled a gun on me.  Won't happen like that again."
Them: "Are there any drugs in the car?"
Me: "My prescriptions are in my duffle".
Minutes later..
Me: "Nice puppy, what a good boy"
Them: "He shouldn't be letting you pet him."
Me: "Oh"
About an hour later and all my crap pulled out on the side of the road...
Them, perplexed. "Well sir, you're clean and can go ahead and go."
Me: "Thanks officers.  Out of curiosity, can you tell em why you choose me to search?"
Them: "Well, you said you were down at the coast, and there's been a lot of coke coming in lately.  And, frankly, you kinda fit the bill for a runner."
Me: "Nah, I see too many people screwed up on that crap.  I work for the State as a social worker doing fraud investigations."
After about another 30 minutes of shooting the breeze with them while I pack back up my stuff I was on me way.  Was it a pain in the ass? Oh hell yeah, but I only lost an  hour and a half.  If I had kicked up a fuss, it probably woulda been a good while longer. I felt like I read the situation well, and complied.  They were satisfied, I was able to go on my way.

I did manage a parting shot with the first officer though. 
Me: "My dad was a state trooper, retired a couple years ago. He taught me a few things about what you guys do. Do you mind a little bit of free advice?"
Him: "Go ahead"
Me: "I'm a good guy, but if I wasn't, the way you came up to my window when you stopped me I coulda easily shot you. Be more careful, not everybody's a good guy and we need guys like you out there."

[Jackalope]

     RB makes a good point about jailhouse or wannabe lawyers, most policemen do not tolerate them very well.  If there isn't a reason to detain you, then there will be one, much to your inconvenience.  I worked directly with law enforcement officers, and I've seen their reactions to wannabe lawyers, and to Joe six pack guys who knew they screwed up.  The Joe six packs were usually let go with just a warning.

     Personally, I try to be courteous and respectful when I encounter police.  I also try to minimize my contact with them, if they initiated the encounter.  When pulled over on the road, the overhead lights go on, the rear driver-side and front driver-side windows go down, and both my hands remain on the driver's wheel, until instructed otherwise.  And, "No sir, I don't know why you stopped me." 

     One time, I got pulled over on my way to work.  The State Trooper asked where I was going, and I explained that I was going to work.  He asked, Where do you work?"  My innocent response, "State Police Headquarters."  That got me out of the ticket, and I actually bumped into the guy at work a few weeks later. No harm, no foul.

[pkveazey]

RB, I wouldn't allow a search even though I'm certain there is nothing illegal in my car but Lawyers will always advise no searches. However, If I had done what you did, I would have made a deal with them. If you remove it, you put it back like you found it. I've heard a Brazillion stories about how they ramsack your car and leave you to clean up the mess that they made. No deal, no search. Being a Musician, I also have hair halfway down my back.

[JohnyMac]

Mmmm.

In the last 20-years I have been pulled over twice.

1) Do you know why I pulled you over Sir?
     Nope.
     Well you just did a rolling stop at that stop sign. May I have your license, registration, and insurance card?
     Here you go and I included my conceal carry ID.
     Ahhhhh, you carrying?
     Yupper.
     Where is the firearm?
     In a IWB holster, right side.
     Ahhhhh. ok please keep your hands on the steering wheel.
     OK
     
     Police officer comes back to the car.
     Here is your ID. What are you carrying?
     Kimber 1911.
     Well, I am letting you off with a warning. Be careful.
     Thank you officer.

2) I passed a car that was driving 20-mph in a 45-mph zone. The issue was it was a double lined location
    Do you know why I pulled you over?
    I assume it was because I went around a traffic problem going 20 in a 45 zone.
    YES! But it doesn't matter you broke the law. I know he was going very slow however, you should have never
        passed the car. Can I have your license, insurance, and registration.
    I gave it to him plus my CCW. He looked at it as I gave it to him and his eye brows went up.
    He returned to my car in about 2-minutes, handed back my ID and proceeded to scold me for my "misjudgment" and
       then he told me I could go.
    I thanked him and drove away.

Moral of the stories. Keep you mouth shut and say as little as possible. Also, I truly believe in both cases, I presented my CCW with my other ID.

Neither case, did I have hair down my back. 

Now I get photo tickets for speeding in construction zones all the time. No points for photo tickets just money. 
   

[Nemo]

I have not been stopped in a couple years.  But I answer (and wife well trained)  with the idea--

About 5 or so years ago.

Can I have your license, registration and PoI?

Yes, FYI registration and PoI are in the glove box, but I'm sure you already got the report on those along with CCP issuance, and DL, but drivers license and CCP are in my hip pocket, just under my sidearm. What would you like me to do?

Pay better attention to the speed limit signs and your speedometer.  Have a good day.

Last time it ended there.

About 8-9 years back.

Basically went:

where you coming from? 

Back there.

Where you headed?

Thataway.

Know why I stopped you?

No, I was driving safely, within proper speeds and maintaining proper control.

Why did you stop me?

That basically left rural county sheriff's deputy a touch confused.

He replied-- you were going a bit fast, about 10 mile over the limit here but I am letting you off with a verbal warning.  Slow down and watch the signs.

Have a good day.

I smiled a bit as he walked back to his car.

Nemo