Justified?

[Reaver]

So, came up with an idea?
Lets use this thread for " Justifiable "  clips.


Justified? You post. Others decide.

Hawthorne, Ca Police Kill Dog(1)

My opinion on this. No, absolutely not as a police officer you have non-lethal for a reason. Use it.

Side note ( that is for sure going to get deleted due to lack of sak around here )......

Edited for conduct violation & "lack of self-preservation."  You can thank me later Rvr.  ~ s-k

 ~Edited again by RvR~Told Yaz told yaz

[JohnyMac]

It is a shame RvR that we are seeing more and all LEO's trying and in some cases going over the line moral and ethical line.

A good buddy of mine (Volunteer K-9 LEO for a small town in RI) had a similar run-in with another small towns police in MA. In short...

He & his two labs had just completed goose hunting. He had put the dogs back in their crates, put the geese he had shot in the bed of his truck; then put his unloaded shotgun in it's case and while driving away a police officer pulled him over.

The police officer asked him if he had a weapon in his vehicle and of course my friend said, "Yes. It is unloaded and in the case in the back."

The police officer called for back-up. Then asked my friend to get out of his truck and show him the case, which he did. As this happened the back-up police officer arrived. At which time my friend was asked to sit down on the police officers front bumper. They proceeded to search the truck which apparently included letting my friends labs out of there crates.

The dogs started to run all over -Weaving in and out of traffic. My friend haled one of the officers and asked if he could gather up his labs before they got hit.

One of the officers walked up to my friend. Demanded that he turn around and was promptly cuffed. When asked what is going on, he was told that he was driving around with a shotgun that did not have trigger lock. My friend pointed out that it was in a locked gun case. The officer responded that it didn't matter. Even fire arms locked in a gun safe at home must have a trigger lock.

Well my friend then asked the officer to call Chef XYZ of the town of ABC to let her know that two of the towns rescue dogs were running around and may get hit by a car. He would appreciate it if the Chef would send over an officer to secure them.

The police officer asked his partner to come over to my hand cuffed friend and started to question him. Yup, my dogs are part of the K-9 rescue team for ABC. Yes I am a volunteer Police officer working with ABC's police department ABC.

Well they called ABC's police department and once the other officer got the nod he un-cuffed my friend and he collect his dogs. Once the dogs were back in their crates he received quite the lecture which was basically:

1) Why didn't you tell us you were part of ABC's police force - Volunteer or not, and
2) Even though it is not a law in Rhode Island to have a trigger lock on all weapons it is in Massachusetts...Ignorance
    of the law is no excuse.

So there you go...First, if you are part of the fraternity we would not have hassled you and because you told me you had a weapon when asked in your truck, you loose all rights.

White guy white police officers. 


 

[sledge]

That is exactly how it is JM.  My brother was a deputy sheriff for many years before taking contracts overseas with the UN setting up police departments in East Timor and then with the State Department in the Marianas Islands investigating white collar crime involving the money we send them.

He said as a cop, the first thing that you ask if you are pulled over, is if the officer pulling you over believes in "professional courtesy".  Apparently, no one is allowed to break the law unless they are responsible for enforcing the law.

[Kentactic]

At first i was on the dudes side but upon seeing the complete footage the man in the video pulled up, blasting his music, stopped right behind the cop cars and sat there for a while. Then pulled up music still blasting. Pulled his roughtwheiler out for no reason other then to have intimidation factor and proceeded to walk around and film stuff. Filming is fine. But as far as i can tell this dude killed his own dog. He put that animal in a situation he shouldnt have. He had all the windows in that car down. I wouldnt be suprised if it was his plan to get his dog killed to try and sue. If im working and a large dog rushes me, im swingin a shovel as hard as i can at that dogs head if i have a shovel. If i have a gun im using a gun. No way in fuck will i wait for OC spray to hopefully take affect eventually. Or hope my one shot on a tazer connects. I see no reason why that man shouldnt be charged with reckless endangerment of an animal. He knew his dogs dimenor and he did what he did anyways. The cop might have pulled the trigger but the dogs owner killed him.

[Reaver]

At first i was on the dudes side but upon seeing the complete footage the man in the video pulled up, blasting his music, stopped right behind the cop cars and sat there for a while. Then pulled up music still blasting. Pulled his roughtwheiler out for no reason other then to have intimidation factor and proceeded to walk around and film stuff. Filming is fine. But as far as i can tell this dude killed his own dog. He put that animal in a situation he shouldnt have. He had all the windows in that car down. I wouldnt be suprised if it was his plan to get his dog killed to try and sue. If im working and a large dog rushes me, im swingin a shovel as hard as i can at that dogs head if i have a shovel. If i have a gun im using a gun. No way in fuck will i wait for OC spray to hopefully take affect eventually. Or hope my one shot on a tazer connects. I see no reason why that man shouldnt be charged with reckless endangerment of an animal. He knew his dogs dimenor and he did what he did anyways. The cop might have pulled the trigger but the dogs owner killed him.

If lethal is all they had absolutely use lethal, however there is no " wait " time on OC that shit works quick....and three officers even if on two go for the taze ones ganna connect.

[hjmoosejaw]

Yeah, I'm still leaning "justified". That dog was to be controlled, he wasn't. I'm with Ken. The window's down, the man stopped, music blaring, etc. How do we know, how much his actions hindered the cops from being able to perform their duties? Filming is fine, but he seemed to be, out to "get the man".

[APX808]

At first the cops back up a little, but then the dog tries to bite one of them and then is when the dog gets ventilated.
I would had done the same, an attack from that dog can be considered use of deadly force, and the owner is legally responsible of his dog actions.

I dunno if arresting the guy was ok, he was being an asshole, but filming and playing music loud isn't a crime.

[Kentactic]

@ Reaver- as i understand it there can be quite a big delay with OC spray. And some people it does nothing to. My border patrol buddy said its like spraying him with water. He is immune. It has zero affect. As humans were pussies with pain. A dog is not going to be so paralized by OC spray. Theres a reason that bear spray is much more potent. Even then i wouldnt spray a charging bear with bear spray. If the potential for serious injury by the dog with the strongest bite around isnt justification of lethal force then how is a man with a crowbar? Based on this a man with a knife rushing you should have LESS-lethal options deployed. The whole "LESS-lethal will PROBABLY work" is not acceptable. Are you ok with PROBABLY keeping full range of motion in both your hands by the end of the encounter? The dogs owner put the cops in harms way and its his fault the dog died. All my anger is directed yet again at a man who has no business owning a dog.

[Kentactic]

At first the cops back up a little, but then the dog tries to bite one of them and then is when the dog gets ventilated.
I would had done the same, an attack from that dog can be considered use of deadly force, and the owner is legally responsible of his dog actions.

I dunno if arresting the guy was ok, he was being an asshole, but filming and playing music loud isn't a crime.

Agreed. Wether arresting the man was right or not i cant say. But everything after that was legite in my opinion.

[JohnyMac]

IMO, the police are to blame as they lost control of the situation. From what I saw... That is all of the evidence I have, there are several things what they could have done. What do you think they are?

I will start out at the first one:

> Not cuffed the man...
> Next?

Think back in your life (s), in a "kind of" similar situation what could or did you do?



 

[Reaver]

Well some things are immune to OC I'm immune to CS but not OC that being said, immediate life threat isn't there. IMO as a community servant you must go through the proper steps and straight to lethal isn't it. If you sprayed the dog and it didn't then roger that blast it, but there is also the option to taze and another option to beat ( expandable baton ).

The dog will not be immune to a broken leg or a few ribs.....but it'll get him to back off and it's more likely to live.


Escalation or force training is the only thing I get out of this video besides anger.

[APX808]

I wouldn't fight a rottweiler with a baton never in my fucking life, that's asking to lose a limb in that beast mouth.

Are all the cops in US equipped with OC and a baton? Around here they don't.

[special-k]

When a person is taken into custody, the officer(s) become responsible for the security of that person AND that person's property.  If that had been a child who got out of the car and started wandering in the street, it would have been the officer(s) responsibility... being that the owner was in custody, and therefore handcuffs.  The officers failed to secure the man's property, and were negligent.

Frankly, I am disgusted by those who think filming an officer is antagonistic, and means for arrest... makes me want to puke.

[hjmoosejaw]

The cops looked like they were there, entering a crack house or something. We didn't hear everything. Maybe they told him to stay back, and he didn't, therefore maybe hindering their job. I don't know. Most states, you're permitted to film, but I think it's a different thing, if it interferes with them doing their job.

I know, cops can abuse their power. All I can say, is any time, I've had dealings with cops, I've minded my Ps and Qs, they were professional, everything went okay. And in each incident, I was in the wrong. Imagine that. Oh well, you'll have that. 

[Kentactic]

When a person is taken into custody, the officer(s) become responsible for the security of that person AND that person's property.  If that had been a child who got out of the car and started wandering in the street, it would have been the officer(s) responsibility... being that the owner was in custody, and therefore handcuffs.  The officers failed to secure the man's property, and were negligent.

Frankly, I am disgusted by those who think filming an officer is antagonistic, and means for arrest... makes me want to puke.

I dont think anyone is saying that simply filming cops warrants arrest. Thats his right. But we dont have the full scope of the situation. For all we know that was a known member of the same gang. All we can ask is wether or not that dog needed to be shot. How we arrived at the attacking dog isnt up for us to debate with any sort of credibility.

[Reaver]

I wouldn't fight a rottweiler with a baton never in my fucking life, that's asking to lose a limb in that beast mouth.

Are all the cops in US equipped with OC and a baton? Around here they don't.

Do some research on how much energy is delivered from a baton. You may change your tune.

[sledge]

I wouldn't fight a rottweiler with a baton never in my fucking life, that's asking to lose a limb in that beast mouth.

Are all the cops in US equipped with OC and a baton? Around here they don't.

Do some research on how much energy is delivered from a baton. You may change your tune.

In the past decade and a half or so, there has been a move away from batons by most officers.  Now they seem to prefer tasers instead.  The baton was an art form that had to be developed and a taser can be handled with a lot less training. (not to mention at more distance.)  But in this question, a baton will take out a dog quite nicely when fielded by someone trained to use it.

In the military, for shore patrol,  they issued a piece of crap baton that was designed with a breaking point if they were used to hit someone too hard.  I had one break in half when I used it for a shield to block the business end of an incoming swinging pool stick.

[Reaver]

I wouldn't fight a rottweiler with a baton never in my fucking life, that's asking to lose a limb in that beast mouth.

Are all the cops in US equipped with OC and a baton? Around here they don't.

Do some research on how much energy is delivered from a baton. You may change your tune.

In the past decade and a half or so, there has been a move away from batons by most officers.  Now they seem to prefer tasers instead.  The baton was an art form that had to be developed and a taser can be handled with a lot less training. (not to mention at more distance.)  But in this question, a baton will take out a dog quite nicely when fielded by someone trained to use it.

In the military, for shore patrol,  they issued a piece of crap baton that was designed with a breaking point if they were used to hit someone too hard.  I had one break in half when I used it for a shield to block the business end of an incoming swinging pool stick.

Batons are no joke dude, the expandable ones are used as more of a convenience. The handled batons take a whole other course as their rules are different. The handled baton delivers three times more energy at impact.

Your talking some serious numbers guys easily...easily dispatch a dog.

[madmitch]

With a baton and oc I could take andre the giant

[sledge]

With a baton and oc I could take andre the giant

My brother said the giant was a hell of a nice guy.  Roger's best friend was the son of a wrestling family.  The mother and dad both were wrestlers.  After all the screaming and calling each other names at the arena in Amarillo the wrestlers would come over to their house afterwards for beers and all night bar-b-que.  Roger shot the shit with him several times there.  Said he was a really sweet natured man.

Bet he picked his teeth with batons and brushed with oc.  I wouldn't have screwed with him if I had a bazooka.  But then, I like my bones arranged the way they are now.  The giant missed his calling, he should have been a chiropractor.       

[Reaver]

All jokes aside I've seen grown ass men ( women too ) break down and cry when confronted with OC

Shit sucks.

[Deathstyle]

Oldie but a goodie. The stuff kicks off about 6 mins in. 

Deandre Brunston vs. L.A. County Sheriff Dept.

[APX808]

WTF I just saw... The shit went down at 3:00, and it was a firing squad they gunned down everything 

[JohnyMac]

Yupper APX...A firing squad for a flip flop shoe. 

On the first vid: Did anybody notice the leash dragging behind the dog? Why didn't some one stand on it and then grab it to control the dog? Granted I am being a "arm chair quarterback" here. But come on...Are you afraid of a little bite 

[APX808]

If they wanted to gun down the guy like they did I don't know why they sent the K9...

On the first video...
When the cops see the dog, the dog is facing them, I think is kind of complicated to flank him and grab the leash.
And I wouldn't say a rottweiler bite is a "little bite" they are the dog with the strongest bite, and is pretty common to see in the news how they killed or maimed children and old people.

Bite force competition Between Rottweiler, German Shepherd, and Pitbull.