Author Topic: Fluoride Discussion  (Read 1999 times)

darkness17

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Fluoride Discussion
« on: December 14, 2011, 11:12:16 AM »
......I guess I am also in charge of hygiene. I plan on buying sodium flouride to make dental rinse. 500 g of it will survive a family of 3 for like 80 years. There are also soaps to make.

Moderator's Note: Even though fluoride and fluoride containing products are sold for public use, conclusive scientific evidence exists that fluoride is neurotoxic and any potential benefits do not out weigh the risks.  YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.  DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH. 


To the moderator, please open this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flouride#Toxicology
Please scroll to the toxicity. "the lethal dose for most adult humans is estimated at 5 to 10 g".  May I ask what research you have to back your claim? At what dose do they claim it negatively affects the brain? Did they swallow the fluoride solution?

As an aside, I have done my research. It is called 4 and 1/2 years of college. I am an environmental science major with a chemistry concentration and minor. I have taken assorted chemistry courses including organic and inorganic. I have an idea of what I am talking about.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 06:04:00 PM by special-k »

Offline rah45

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Re: Fluoride Discussion
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2011, 11:21:13 AM »
To darkness and the moderator (mods cannot tell who edited what post):

Yes, I think that Darkness should have added a note to toxicity, because a lot of people (including myself) either never knew or forgot that knowledge (I've seen it before, but never use it, sooo...yeah). However, for anyone (moderator or not) to claim that it's not worth the risks, there needs to be scientific proof provided. "Do your own research" is not enough support to make such a claim. "Do your own research" is barely enough reinforcement for "this can be dangerous, watch your step."

@ TG: Should we just make it mandatory that, if someone advocates taking an action here, and are aware of possible negative side effects, they must at least broadly allude to those effects? I'm not talking about citations (unless they're unquestionably necessary), but just an "at your own risk" kind of thing.

@ Darkness: Personally, I don't trust Wiki much. There is some very credible info there, but there is also a lot of BS from people who think they know the subject, but only know part of it or are very biased. You'll be able to convince members here much better if you use a different source. Unless, of course, you can personally verify that the info on the Wiki is legitimate, and the page additionally has many citations that members here can examine if they wish to check the facts.  :)
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 11:23:33 AM by rah45 »

Offline redraptor26

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Re: Fluoride Discussion
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2011, 02:25:50 PM »
well darkside post your intended formula, make a note note that if the people reading this dont know what their doing to just play safe and buy a shit load of toothpaste and Listerine and that if they are capable to make their own mouthwash that it should not be swallowed
"They don't like it when you shoot at 'em, i figured that one out all by my self."

Offline redraptor26

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Re: Fluoride Discussion
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2011, 02:27:37 PM »
if anything the activated charcoal project seems a lot more dangerous to personal health than the mouthwash project
 
"They don't like it when you shoot at 'em, i figured that one out all by my self."

Offline redraptor26

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Re: Fluoride Discussion
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2011, 02:28:52 PM »
DARKNESS wow my superman nerdish is showing  [img]http://www.arrse.co.uk/at
"They don't like it when you shoot at 'em, i figured that one out all by my self."

darkness17

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Re: Fluoride Discussion
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2011, 02:54:16 PM »
Raha,  thanks. Sorry for using Wiki. I wanted to use a peer reviewed article. But, oops.
http://www.fluoridealert.org/health/accidents/lethal.aspx, this is perfect. Because this site is against the use of fluorination. They say early symptoms of acute fluoride toxicity can be exhibited at 0.1 mg/kg (IF INGESTED, do not swallow fluoride). Assuming a 70 kg person, I need to eat 7 mg of fluoride. I am looking at a tube of toothpaste right now. They say it is 0.24% by weight of sodium fluoride and 0.14% by weight of fluoride ion. My tube of toothpaste is 221 g. So, in that tube, there is 0.5304 g of it, which is 530.4 mg of it. You need to swallow more than 1% of it to have the mininum dose to begin toxicity. All in all, do not swallow fluoride. It is the most electronegative element in the Periodic Table of Elements. Meaning that, when ingested, hydrochloric acid (H-Cl) (strong acid) becomes hydrofluoric acid (H-F) (weak acid). That disrupts digestion.

darkness17

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Re: Fluoride Discussion
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2011, 03:01:10 PM »
Redraptor, I will post what I did for fluoride mouthwash.

Offline sledge

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Re: Fluoride Discussion
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2011, 03:23:53 PM »
I've mentioned this before, somewhere, can't remember where (damn Fluoride), but at the risk of sounding like a tape recorder (that's a digital recorder for you young guys), I'll repeat it.

In the early parts of WWII Fluoride was used as a truth serum by the military.  It affects an area of the brain that makes the subject lethargic and vulnerable to suggestion.  More effective drugs were found and it's use ended in favor of the other drugs.

As it was proven to be ineffective in stopping tooth decay in studies unless it is applied topically directly to the teeth in higher doses, I've often wondered about the actual reason the Fed are requiring it added to drinking water.  I've also wondered if those doses of fluoride would ever be increased in areas of the country where civil uprisings might be more likely to occur.

Just something to think about.  Man, the things to think about just keeps getting a little bigger every day doesn't it?  I wonder how much longer before it's just too overwhelming? 

   



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darkness17

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Re: Fluoride Discussion
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2011, 03:37:45 PM »
Where was it stated the fluoride is ineffective to stop tooth decay?

Offline rah45

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Re: Fluoride Discussion
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2011, 03:42:32 PM »
In the early parts of WWII Fluoride was used as a truth serum by the military.  It affects an area of the brain that makes the subject lethargic and vulnerable to suggestion...As it was proven to be ineffective in stopping tooth decay in studies unless it is applied topically directly to the teeth in higher doses, I've often wondered about the actual reason the Fed are requiring it added to drinking water.  I've also wondered if those doses of fluoride would ever be increased in areas of the country where civil uprisings might be more likely to occur.

I would love to see documentation on that fact. I mean that with sincerity. I've often wondered how the great, freedom-loving American populace degenerated so much, so quickly. I could never attribute it all to pure greed and selfishness because, at the core, most Americans seem to be very willing to help others in need if they feel they can trust those people not to harm them. I'm not a conspiracy theorist (well, at least not compared to some members on this site  ;D love you guys, you know who you are!), but I would definitely consider taking relevant, scientifically-backed info such as that, study it, and report my findings to my close friends and relatives.

Offline sledge

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Re: Fluoride Discussion
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2011, 03:47:15 PM »
You guys are gonna make me go find this stuff again?   :o  Alright, give me some time to find it again it's been a year or two since I was reading it.



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Offline rah45

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Re: Fluoride Discussion
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2011, 03:52:21 PM »
You guys are gonna make me go find this stuff again?   :o  Alright, give me some time to find it again it's been a year or two since I was reading it.

Lol. Whenever you find this stuff, and it is scientifically proven, make sure to save it to either a hard drive or a flash drive for easy reference.  :))

darkness17

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Re: Fluoride Discussion
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2011, 03:55:34 PM »
I have this, that is from the American Dental Assocation (they are obviously pro-fluoride)
http://www.ada.org/sections/advocacy/pdfs/fluoride_report_response.pdf

Offline sledge

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Re: Fluoride Discussion
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2011, 04:10:55 PM »
Alright, here are a few from literally thousands.

Should I be giving my baby flouride?
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080208221715AAEtdzg

From the article:

Fluoride is a neuro-toxin. It is not a nutrient like so many people seem to believe. If it was a nutrient, it would occur naturally in at least one food that God (or nature, depending on what you believe) gave us to eat. It doesn't. It's an industrial waste product. It was used at one time as a truth serum--that's how much effect it has on the brain.

Fluoridation Promises
http://www.fluoridealert.org/Alert/United-States/Utah/Fluoridation-Promises.aspx

From the article:

The effectiveness and safety of fluoridated water will be debated until
the taps run dry, but Salt Lake County health officials have ensured that the stuff will never be associated with a truth serum.

The fluoridation lobby did a wonderful job last year of using
"intellectual" intimidation to overwhelm such common-sense concerns. We have more sheepskin than a Wyoming rancher, proponents informed Utahns, so if none of this makes sense it is only because you are too dense to understand it.



But Europe's dentists, doctors and public health officials understand
just fine, thank you, and most of their countries discontinued fluoridation in the 1970s due to concerns about effectiveness, safety, ethics and impact on the environment. This has not led to an increase in cavities, however. In fact, World Health Organization statistics show that 12-year-olds in Britain, the Netherlands, Finland, Denmark and Sweden -- none of which fluoridates its water -- have fewer decayed, missing or filled teeth (DMFTs) than Americans. So do kids in China, Egypt, Libya and Iraq, which also don't fluoridate their water.

The U.S. fluoridation lobby points to the downward trend of tooth decay in America as "proof" that fluoridation works, but decay rates have been dropping even faster in non-fluoridated countries. While DMFTs were falling from 2.6 to 1.4 among U.S. 12-year-olds, Britain's fell from 3.1 to 1.1, Cuba's dropped from 6 to 1.4, and the Netherlands' dropped from 1.7 to 0.9.

The kids with the world's best teeth tend to live in Africa, where they
not only lack money for fluoridation but -- what could be more significant -- sugar. The 12-year-olds in Rwanda, whose per-capita sugar consumption is about 120 times less than America's, have about one-fifth the DMFTs of their U.S. counterparts.


fluoride policy is a public fraud
http://www.friendsofwater.com/Fluoride_Toxicity.html

From the article:

 Fluoride is also thought to suppress intelligence and independent will, which may explain some of the reasons why the U.S. population is so easy to control through propaganda and media manipulation. In fact, there is some interesting research going way back about fluoride being used on wartime prisoners as a truth serum in an effort to get them to go along with the capturing nation's propaganda. So, in an almost comic sense, the mass medication of the U.S. population with fluoride could, in a very real sense, be turning our country into a nation of mindless zombies.

50 Reasons to Oppose Fluoridation
http://the-raw-advantage.com/2011/12/101-donations-fan-the-fluoride-action-network/

From the article:
Swallowing fluoride provides no (or very little) benefit

11) Benefits are topical not systemic. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC, 1999, 2001) has now acknowledged that the mechanism of fluoride?s benefits are mainly topical, not systemic. There is no need whatsoever, therefore, to swallow fluoride to protect teeth. Since the purported benefits of fluoride are topical, and the risks are systemic, it makes more sense to deliver the fluoride directly to the tooth in the form of toothpaste. Since swallowing fluoride is unnecessary, and potentially dangerous, there is no justification for forcing people (against their will) to ingest fluoride through their water supply.

12) Fluoridation is not necessary. Most western, industrialized countries have rejected water fluoridation, but have nevertheless experienced the same decline in childhood dental decay as fluoridated countries. (See data from World Health Organization presented graphically in Figure 1).

13) Fluoridation?s role in the decline of tooth decay is in serious doubt. The largest survey ever conducted in the US (over 39,000 children from 84 communities) by the National Institute of Dental Research showed little difference in tooth decay among children in fluoridated and non-fluoridated communities (HYPERLINK ?http://www.fluoridealert.org/NIDR.htm?Hileman 1989). According to NIDR researchers, the study found an average difference of only 0.6 DMFS (Decayed Missing and Filled Surfaces) in the permanent teeth of children aged 5-17 residing their entire lives in either fluoridated or unfluoridated areas (Brunelle & Carlos, 1990). This difference is less than one tooth surface, and less than 1% of the 100+ tooth surfaces available in a child?s mouth. Large surveys from three Australian states have found even less of a benefit, with decay reductions ranging from 0 to 0.3 of one permanent tooth surface (Spencer 1996; Armfield & Spencer 2004). None of these studies have allowed for the possible delayed eruption of the teeth that may be caused by exposure to fluoride, for which there is some evidence (Komarek 2005). A one-year delay in eruption of the permanent teeth would eliminate the very small benefit recorded in these modern studies.

14) NIH-funded study on individual fluoride ingestion and tooth decay failed to find a significant correlation. The multi-million dollar, NIH-funded study by Warren et al. (2009) found no relation between tooth decay and the amount of fluoride ingested by children. This is the first time that tooth decay has been investigated as a function of individual exposure as opposed to mere residence in a fluoridated community.

15) Tooth decay does not go up when fluoridation is stopped. Where fluoridation has been HYPERLINK ?http://www.fluoridealert.org/feb-2001.htm?discontinued in communities from Canada, the former East Germany, Cuba and Finland, dental decay has not increased but has generally continued to decrease (Maupom? 2001; Kunzel & Fischer, 1997, 2000; Kunzel 2000; Seppa 2000).

16) Tooth decay is high in low-income communities that have been fluoridated for years. Despite some claims to the contrary, water fluoridation cannot prevent the oral health crises that result from rampant poverty, inadequate nutrition, and lack of access to dental care. There have been numerous reports of severe dental crises in low-income neighborhoods of US cities that have been fluoridated for over 20 years (e.g., Boston, Cincinnati, New York City, Pittsburgh). In addition, fluoridation has been repeatedly found to be ineffective at preventing the most serious oral health problem facing poor children, namely ?baby bottle tooth decay,? otherwise known as early childhood caries (Barnes 1992; Shiboski 2003).

17) Tooth decay was coming down before fluoridation started. Modern research (e.g., Diesendorf 1986; Colquhoun 1997) shows that decay rates were coming down before fluoridation was introduced in Australia and New Zealand and have continued to decline even after its benefits would have been maximized (see Figure 2). Many other factors influence tooth decay.

Figure 2. The number of decayed teeth in 5-year olds in New Zealand, over the period 1930-1990. The percentage of the population drinking fluoridated water and the percentage of the total toothpaste sold containing fluoride are shown on the right hand axis (Colquhoun, 1993).

18) The studies that launched fluoridation were methodologically flawed. The early trials conducted between 1945 and 1955 in North America that helped to launch fluoridation, have been heavily criticized for their poor methodology and poor choice of control communities (De Stefano 1954; Sutton 1959, 1960, 1996; Ziegelbecker 1970). According to Dr. Hubert Arnold, a statistician from the University of California at Davis, the early fluoridation trials ?are especially rich in fallacies, improper design, invalid use of statistical methods, omissions of contrary data, and just plain muddleheadedness and hebetude.? Serious questions have also been raised about Trendley Dean?s (the father of fluoridation) famous 21-city study from 1942 (Ziegelbecker, 1981).



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darkness17

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Re: Fluoride Discussion
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2011, 04:24:57 PM »
Sledge, I don't see ONE peer reviewed reference. All of these are backed by the Fluoride Action Network. Which has a vendata against fluoride. I have this:  "On April 12, 2010, Time magazine listed fluoride as one of the "Top Ten Common Household Toxins" and described fluoride as both "neurotoxic and potentially tumorigenic if swallowed." Note the "if swallowed". I am talking about using fluoride as a dental rinse/ toothpaste. Again, DO NOT SWALLOW FLUORIDE. IT IS EXTREMELY HARMFUL.

Btw, children under the age of 2 should not use fluoride.
Quote from:
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/political-mischaracterization-of-fluoridation-opposition-dismays-scientists-96917849.html

Offline sledge

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Re: Fluoride Discussion
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2011, 04:29:14 PM »
Sledge, I don't see ONE peer reviewed reference. All of these are backed by the Fluoride Action Network. Which has a vendata against fluoride. I have this:  "On April 12, 2010, Time magazine listed fluoride as one of the "Top Ten Common Household Toxins" and described fluoride as both "neurotoxic and potentially tumorigenic if swallowed." Note the "if swallowed". I am talking about using fluoride as a dental rinse/ toothpaste. Again, DO NOT SWALLOW FLUORIDE. IT IS EXTREMELY HARMFUL.

Btw, children under the age of 2 should not use fluoride.
Quote from:
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/political-mischaracterization-of-fluoridation-opposition-dismays-scientists-96917849.html


Wrong!  I peered reviewed it!  LOL!   :)



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darkness17

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Re: Fluoride Discussion
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2011, 04:32:29 PM »
Lol, nice... then i guess I am gonna have to throw out my fluoride plans... lmfao

Offline sledge

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Re: Fluoride Discussion
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2011, 04:50:09 PM »
Lol, nice... then i guess I am gonna have to throw out my fluoride plans... lmfao

LOL!  Glad I could help darkness.  LOL!  Really man, I have a brain that tends to question everything.  Like the MSG and aspertane they add to food.  Then the other day I saw cooking show on TV where the guy had an salt shaker full of MSG and he said he loved the way that stuff tasted so he was sprinkling it all over his food.

I guess it's like politics, go with what you like.   :)
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 05:14:00 PM by sledge »



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darkness17

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Re: Fluoride Discussion
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2011, 05:04:42 PM »
I totally understand. I am a scientist, and a chemist at that. Part of the reason I like science is that I like to challenge previously held falsities. So, moral of my story is that fluoride is good as long as it is NOT ingested/injected into the body. 

Offline sledge

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Re: Fluoride Discussion
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2011, 05:18:12 PM »
I totally understand. I am a scientist, and a chemist at that. Part of the reason I like science is that I like to challenge previously held falsities. So, moral of my story is that fluoride is good as long as it is NOT ingested/injected into the body.

LOL!  Kind of like paint, Huh?  I think we got off topic here.  As usual it's probably my fault.  I'm a terrible moderator.  Sooner or later TG is gonna figure that out.



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darkness17

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Re: Fluoride Discussion
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2011, 05:21:19 PM »
Ahhh... just don't tell people to do their own research when it is KINDA what they have been doing for like half a decade. You will be fine lol.

Offline sledge

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Re: Fluoride Discussion
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2011, 08:36:52 PM »
Ahhh... just don't tell people to do their own research when it is KINDA what they have been doing for like half a decade. You will be fine lol.

Who'd I tell to do their own research?  I must have missed it, or forget it, or something.  Must be that damn fluoride again.



In the pursuit of liberty, many will fall. In the pursuit of fascism, many will be against the wall..........   Courtesy of Xydaco

darkness17

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Re: Fluoride Discussion
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2011, 09:51:29 AM »
Sledge, a moderator told me to do my own research. I am sorry if I assume it was you, dude. Sorry.

Offline sledge

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Re: Fluoride Discussion
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2011, 09:55:43 AM »
Sledge, a moderator told me to do my own research. I am sorry if I assume it was you, dude. Sorry.

No problem Darkness.  I try to ad links to anything I post.  Sometimes it's difficult.  I read and research so much stuff sometimes it's hard to remember where I read something at or all of the precise details.  Information overload I guess.   :)



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Offline JohnyMac

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Re: Fluoride Discussion
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2011, 10:02:57 AM »
My wife has been a type I diabetic for 45 years. One of the side affects of the disease is gum and teeth problems.

Her Periodontics (Spelling ?) gave her a perception for fluoride gel which she brushes with once a day. It has slowed if not stopped her tooth decay. She still has gum roblems though.

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