Democrat/Republican.

[Reaver]

Republican/Democrat and Liberal/Conservative are not really accurate enough terms. Individualist/Collectivist to me at least, seem to be more descriptive of the overall ideals of one side vs. the next. Collectivists tend to be in favor of gun control because they want each person to act as part of the whole society. Your money goes to society, society tells you what care you can drive, what lightbulbs you can own, how much money you can make, whether your speech is acceptable, etc. The want to be the ones in charge of raising your children, telling you how to eat, how to work and how to sleep. Gun control plays right into this mentality for two reasons.

A: Fighting crime is the role of appointed officials, IE police. Shoot shooting? Wait for a cop. Break in? Wait for a cop. "Only cops and soldiers should have guns" and so forth.

B: Gun ownership as a means to fight government tyranny is wholly opposed to the idea of collectivism. Individuals deciding for themselves how to live, and using violence to make sure they are allowed to is on the opposite end of the spectrum of a "you're part of the whole, it's not your decision" mentality.


Individualists have views that are essentially on the opposite side of all fo these beliefs. I'll keep my money. I'll work how I want, and hire/fire who I want. I'll live where I want, drive whatever car I want, practice what religion I want, say what I want, eat what I want. My kids will be raised and will learn the values I choose.

And I will take care of myself and my own. I don't need you and your collective, and your collective better keep your hands out of my pockets.


Both political parties have positions in a variety of matters that fall into one camp or the other. Republicans generally oppose legalizing drugs, which is a fairly collectivist opinion. But liberal democrats tend to be collectivists on almost everything else. Public schools, politically correct speech, "progressive" taxes, and gun control, among other things. Neither side is 100% individualist or 100% collectivist, and no single politician falls on one side or the other 100%. But one side does have more individualist positions than not, and the other side does have more collectivist positions.

For those who are in favor of gun ownership, which I imagine is nearly all of us, ask yourself why you like guns and why you own them. And ask if you're OK with others owning them. Do you agree with the individualism aspect of gun ownership? Taking care of yourself, having fun how you want, etc.

Do you believe in collectivist ideals for other matters? If yes, why the dichotomy?

My dumbass pulled another all nighter. I have read this three times & cannot wrap my fingers around it. I'll try again in a bit. But until then. What are your thoughts?
RvR

[hjmoosejaw]

Makes a lot of sense. I've always thought "Liberal" was a strange name for them. Liberal means to be free, ie. liberty,liberate. Yet they're the ones always pushing for more restrictions on everything and trying to tell everybody else how to live. A conservative just wants to be left alone. You do your thing, I'll do mine type of thing. For people that are suppose to be liberal, they need the government to wipe their a#@es for them.

[sledge]

I think the article's descriptions are right on.  Personally, I don't feel any need to be part of a collective at the personal level.  Government which represents a collective does have value when limited to building roads, infrastructure, national defense and possibly a few other things.

But the larger the Government the less Constitutional rights we as individuals have.  In other words, each year as the Government has become larger the Constitution has become smaller.  Large Government and the Constitution are exact opposites.

[EJR914]

Sounds perfect, I don't see what's hard to understand about it.

You've got libertarian who are individualist, then you have today's Republicans, Democrats, Communist, Socialists, Marxists, ect that are Collectivist.

Collectivist have killed more people in this century than guns, cancer, heart attacks, car wrecks, combined. 

Collectivism in the end, always kills. 

[NOLA556]

to add to the author's criticism of "conservatives", I would also point out their nasty little tendency to stick their fucking noses in other people's bedrooms.

[crudos]

to add to the author's criticism of "conservatives", I would also point out their nasty little tendency to stick their fucking noses in other people's bedrooms.

And who is allowed to get married, and, and, and..... For all the little government platitudes the GOP rings out, they sure want to tell people how to live their lives and what to believe in. Just saying....

[special-k]

to add to the author's criticism of "conservatives", I would also point out their nasty little tendency to stick their fucking noses in other people's bedrooms.

....And don't forget their "war on drugs".....A major intrusion on personal liberties, IMO.

The left and the right are both statists.

[NOLA556]

The left and the right are both statists.

on numerous occasions, I've drawn up my own left/right diagrams because I've never been satisfied with other people's interpretations of it. on my personal diagrams, I place mainstream conservative just to the right of center, and mainstream liberal just to the left of center. and encompassing both of them is a giant bracket labeled "hypocrisy".

in fact, let me draw one up right now and I'll post it up and see what you guys think. standby.

[NOLA556]

here's my personal perspective

[Reaver]

here's my personal perspective

I like it.  [URL=http://www.smileyvault.co

[EJR914]

Actually your middle of the road Republican or Democrat should be right there together on the correct scale, and not the left-right scale that they indoctrinate us with and we keep using over and over again.   [img]http://www.arrse.co.uk/at

They reason why is that they BOTH love BIG GOVERNMENT, MORE GOVERNMENT, they both are statist and collectivist.

The real scale should look just like your one above, but the political groups are slightly in the wrong place.  Not bad though.  At least you've got the right idea.

Totalitarianism ------------------------------------------------Anarchy

That's the correct scale.  The Reps and Dems should be right there together.  They sheep don't really belong anywhere on it, because they literally are useless and don't give a fuck about anything, they flip flop at will, whoever has the most charism and is best looking, or runs the best bullshit campaign and promises enough pie in the sky shit wins

[EJR914]

Complete government control ------------------------------------------ No government

[Reaver]

Complete government control ------------------------------------------ No government

Thank your for breaking it down... us stupid people dunt nowe thum biG werdz

[tominphx]

Collectivist have killed more people in this century than guns, cancer, heart attacks, car wrecks, combined. 

Collectivism in the end, always kills.

It also kills more people than war.

Seriously, you are statistically safer in the worst war zone, actually seeing combat, during the any of the deadliest wars in history, than a citizen in a marxist state.