Clean Shoot ? ? ?

[Nemo]

Surely does not look like it to me.

Nemo

https://www.foxnews.com/us/caught-on-cam-custody-argument-prior-to-texas-man-being-shot-to-death

[RB in GA]

No way that was clean shoot.  Murder 1 in my book.

[FeedingFreedom]

Just an all-round horrible situation.

[Nemo]

No way that was clean shoot.  Murder 1 in my book.

Not 1st, not  premeditates.  2nd surely though.

Nemo

[JohnyMac]

It really amazes me how people react to different scenarios. I will not speak to what either man should have done only what I would have done. Remember, we are only watching a 2-minute segment of what I am sure is a long drawn out drama.

Just looking at the 2-miniute snippet, I think the shooting was unjustified - Morally unjustified.

Legally, especially in Texas, the event will be deemed a legal shoot due to their "stand your ground" law.

I have carried a handgun since I was 16. First a cap n' ball .36 caliber revolver. Then I moved onto a .22 LR Stoeger Luger pistol, then settled onto a 9mm Browning Hi-power. I carried that Browning for decades till I moved onto different EDC handguns. During those 49 or so years I only had to draw that weapon once to protect myself. That one time it ended well for both parties - Them & me.

I believe that I have a moral responsibility to not kill someone for money, property, etc. I will only draw a handgun or take a bead with a long rifle to protect life. Life, whether it be family, neighbor, a stranger standing in line at the ATM, etc. and of course me. 

Thank the good Lord I live in a "stand your ground" state.

[Nemo]

First 5 or so seconds of below are from inside the house, taken by an 11 year old kid.  (reportedly)

Surely convicts him.

In situations like this (IMHO) the minutes and hours before are mostly irrelevant.  What counts in the 5-10 seconds prior to the first bang continuing until 5-10 seconds after the last.

Screams hollers, punches, are irrelevant outside that time period.  The question is was the shooters in clear and immediate danger of serious injury or death.  Again, IMHO, in this case no.  He goes to jail for a long time.

Nemo


https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1463941917754941449

[JohnyMac]

Lets continue to watch this.

As I have already stated - Texas has a very good "stand your ground" law which I suspect will free this shooter.

"I feared for my life. Just look at how intimidating my wife's ex-husband was. Look how much taller he was than me. Look how he got in my face. I feared for my life. "

[Nemo]

But shooter left outside area, went in house for some period of time (30 seconds or more) obtained firearm and returned outside.  Not in any danger, left potentially dangerous area, returned to it.  But still generally irrelevant.

Shooter returned outside fired warning shot, got 5-10 feet away from dead guy and fired 2 shots into him.  Dead guy was not approaching (from visible) and at that moment Shooter not in danger. 

Supports conviction.

Nemo

[pkveazey]

I watched what little that my computer would show me and came to the conclusion that the moment the dead guy grabbed the rifle, that's when he went from just a disorderly conduct trespasser to an agressor. I'm glad I'm too old to be a jurer. This would be a hard call because if that guy was a Cop and I grabbed the cops gun, I would be stone cold dead. I would not have handled that situation the way it went down. I would have called the Police and reported the guy as a trespasser and being disorderly and agressive. I've carried for more than 35 years and I have a self imposed rule. If you pull the gun out, you shoot it. Thinking that you can display a weapon and expecting the agressor to leave is unrealistic and usually won't work. Sometimes, if the agressor has more than 3 brain cells, the agressor will retreat but I know of too many times when displaying a weapon just escalates the situation. I'll have to go with a possible Voluntary Manslaughter. The one thing I'm sure of is that the situation was not handled correctly or with any degree of wisdom.

[Nemo]

Much better analysis than I am capable of giving.   Read below or click link for better readability.

Nemo


https://vcdl.org/view.aspx?messageId=cfacc79ae6ac40df9deec6311c4f67c7

View in browser
      

Virginia Citizens Defense League

Defending Your Right to Defend Yourself
   

Analysis of a recent shooting in Texas ? self-defense or murder?

 

What lead up to the shooting?

A homeowner, Kyle Carruth, and his girlfriend, Christina Read, were visited by Christina?s ex-husband, Chad Read, and Chad?s wife, Jennifer Read, on a child visitation issue in Texas.  A heated argument ensued with Chad getting verbally aggressive with both Christina and Kyle.  Chad refused to leave the premises after being told by Kyle to do so and being told that the child in question was not there.  Kyle then went into the house and returned shortly carrying a pistol-caliber rifle. The event is well documented:  Jennifer takes cellphone video from her vehicle, while someone in the house takes cellphone video through a window.

The actual videos, neither of which is overly graphic, show the shooting from two different angles with audio.  The first video is imbedded in a link below.  Watch the second video and then read my analysis:

Link to a story containing the second video - scroll down a little way to the actual video and then play it.

https://www.everythinglubbock.com/news/local-news/wife-of-chad-read-releases-video-of-deadly-shooting-ssj/

 

My lay analysis and takeaways (not specific to Texas law)

While Chad Read was being loud and aggressive verbally, and he was a large person quite capable of doing serious harm to Kyle and/or Christina, Chad was not committing physical violence, nor was he threatening anyone with a weapon, based on the videos.  In and of itself, Chad?s actions in the video did not seem to justify Kyle overtly bringing a firearm into the conflict.

That said, I don?t know Chad.  Was he really just a large teddy bear or was he someone who could go into a rage and beat someone else to a pulp?  Perhaps Kyle got the rifle based on some past experience and felt things could turn dangerous quickly.  Or perhaps it is just two males with massively elevated hormones racing through their systems.

This is where a concealed handgun comes in handy.  With a concealed handgun, Kyle would have been in a position to defend himself and Christina if Chad became dangerously violent, but without Chad knowing Kyle was prepared to do so.

However, just for arguments sake, let?s say that Kyle didn?t have a concealable handgun in the house, only a rifle.  One of the strong points of a firearm is that it gives you the ability to project deadly force from a safe distance.  If you are within less than ten feet of the other person, or worse, are chest bumping each other, that firearm may end up being useless or even taken away from you.  And rifles are generally not extreme close quarter weapons due to their length.

The videos emphasize a point I?ve made many times:  just because you are brandishing a gun, that doesn?t guarantee the other person is going to comply with your orders!  Any police officer can tell you that from experience.  Yes, most of the time the offender flees when they realize the other person is armed, but not always.  You had best have a contingency plan.

In this case, when Chad saw the gun and was told to leave, instead of leaving, Chad?s temper escalated, he started chest bumping Kyle, and threatened to take the gun away and use it on Kyle.  Chad was being foolish in his actions at that point.  He should have realized that things were getting out of hand and left when he saw Kyle carrying that rifle. 

Kyle, who apparently didn?t have a contingency plan, escalated from brandishing to stepping back and firing a warning shot into his porch near Chad?s feet.  DO NOT FIRE WARNING SHOTS!  Again, the escalation backfired as Chad was totally unfazed by the shot and grabbed Kyle?s rifle.

By attempting to take Kyle?s gun away to use it on him, the conflict was escalated again, this time by Chad.  Kyle spun away to keep control of the gun and shot Chad from several yards away.  Chad dropped like a rock and didn?t move or make a sound from that point on.  Most likely Chad was hit in the head and/or the spine close to the neck for that to happen.

Was Kyle justified in shooting Chad at that point?  It?s complicated.  Kyle was part of the problem, not an innocent attacked without provocation, so retreating is required in most states.  But Kyle was on the curtilage of his home and in most states doesn?t have to retreat when at home, but some states require being inside the home, not outside.  His retreat might have left Christina and others in the home unprotected and possibly in danger.  The real problem I have with this shooting is that Chad did not appear to have a weapon, was not within arm?s reach of Kyle, and was not moving towards Kyle when Kyle shot him.  This would have been a good case for using a non-lethal weapon, such as a pepper-ball gun or a taser.

The best solution would have been for Kyle, once the shouting match began, to have told Christina to get in the house NOW and for Kyle to have gone in the house with her, lock the door, and call the police.

Interesting side note:  No one tries to help Chad as he lies on the ground ? including his wife!  Instead Kyle and Jennifer yell back and forth about whose fault it was that Chad got shot.  Was Jennifer afraid to approach Chad with Kyle holding a gun?  She didn?t attempt to leave and sat a short distance away in a vehicle engaging Kyle in a heated shouting match (and with someone else in the vehicle with her, possibly a child, to boot).  Someone told me that he saw an interview with Jennifer somewhere and she said she thought Chad was shot with a paintball gun, not a real gun.  Since pistol-caliber carbines are not all that loud, I can understand that.  But I still don?t understand why she did not rush to the aid of her unconscious husband.  It?s not a self-defense issue, of course, but puzzling, nonetheless.

 

An attorney?s analysis of the videos under Texas law

Attorney Andrew Branca analyzes the videos and looks at them from a Texas law point of view.

The first video, taken from inside the house, begins at 4:07 into the analysis:

https://youtu.be/3JyVw5LU8EA

News coverage:  https://news.yahoo.com/confrontation-between-2-texas-men-225936865.html?contentType=VIDEO

 

[grizz]

Teal shirt guy was acting in a very agressive and threatening manner, in Alaska it would be considered self defense