"World Wars"...etc. ~ *split topic*

[WhiteWolfReloaded]

*This topic was split from another topic.*  This message has been changed to the least judgmental color scheme possible.  ~ s-k

If there is something that moves me its when I see old men talking about WWII.
Band of brothers had the guys telling their experiences in the beginning of the episodes, that was moving.

thats a hard one for me, i had grandpa in the pacific and one in europe, and the stories are incredible, but at the same time it was just another unjust war that caused so many of our boys to die and get fucked up

Fucked up is an understatement. My great uncle fought in the Battle of Bastogne. All you had to do was mention it and the man went blank......for hours. My understanding is he was one of the first there and one of the last to leave.
That said though, no war is necessary, but if there were ever a righteous cause for war given to man kind it's kicking Nazi ass. Biggest mistakes we made immediately after Japan and Germany's surrender was not allowing Patton and MacArthur to continue through until they met. Guarantee you there'd have been no Cold War, no Vietnam, and certainly no 9/11. But I digress. We're not the only one that has nukes anymore 

[mountainredneck2051]

no sir, the biggest mistake was us entering WWI which led to every war and genocide since then

[CrookedSights]

I don't want to start a shitstorm but what you're saying is, get attacked, don't do anything about it?

[Colombo]

no sir, the biggest mistake was us entering WWI which led to every war and genocide since then

[URL=http://www.smileyvault.co

Absofuckinloutely, the Lusitania was running war materials when we were "neutral". Never was any kind of investigation nor was the shipper of that contraband ever named that I'm aware of.

"In 2008, divers explored the wreck of the Lusitania, situated eight miles off the coast of Ireland. On board, the divers found approximately four million U.S.-made Remington .303 bullets. The discovery supports the German's long-held belief that the Lusitania was being used to transport war materials. The find also supports the theory that it was the explosion of munitions on board that caused the second explosion on the Lusitania."

[Reaver]

Yup. Typical US do the the wrong thing. Get punched in the dick. Tackle entire countries then spend gagillions rebuilding them. I see an MO forming.

[WhiteWolfReloaded]

At the same point we have to remember that had we not entered in to WW I&II we'd likely not have a lot of technology we do today. Particularly nuclear energy. Germany would've likely still become a radical regime and had full access. We can't say for sure if the Holocaust would've still taken place, but I'd assume so since the catalyst for the antisemitic propaganda was fueled by socioeconomic despair.

Of course, then we wouldn't have had all those Nazi bastards come over here in Operation Paperclip. As much as I hate war I have to admit there's something to be said for OT biblical dialogues. When you don't wipe your enemy clean from the earth and allow them to mingle with your own people corruption ensues.

[Alex1992]

War is fucked up, its cruel, its bloody, and its wrong justified or not. I had two grandfathers fight in Korea, one had his leg blown off by a artillery shell he lived, and the other he managed to come home in one piece to a certain extent. 50 years later my grandpa ( the one with all of his legs) he is on his death bed and for the first time in 50 years he had told us some of the cruel nasty things he did. He passed away back in February and I miss him very much. As for the grandpa who lost his leg he passed away when I was a baby. God bless their souls  [img]http://bestsmileys.com/ar

[mountainredneck2051]

I don't want to start a shitstorm but what you're saying is, get attacked, don't do anything about it?

the US and Brittan tried their fucking hardest to get japan to attack us, and they knew it was coming thats why they moved all the brand new shit out of pearl harbor and left the old shit, and infact they had to do all kinds of crazy shit just to keep the guys in pearl from knowing it was coming

so the correct statement is push someone as far into a corner as possible then after them telling you over and over they are gonna fight act like they started the shit when they hit you in the nose

[mountainredneck2051]

At the same point we have to remember that had we not entered in to WW I&II we'd likely not have a lot of technology we do today. Particularly nuclear energy. Germany would've likely still become a radical regime and had full access. We can't say for sure if the Holocaust would've still taken place, but I'd assume so since the catalyst for the antisemitic propaganda was fueled by socioeconomic despair.

Of course, then we wouldn't have had all those Nazi bastards come over here in Operation Paperclip. As much as I hate war I have to admit there's something to be said for OT biblical dialogues. When you don't wipe your enemy clean from the earth and allow them to mingle with your own people corruption ensues.

so the deaths of over 269 million people is justified by technology, and some wild ignorant idea that (well germany probably would have done the same thing i guess) ?

i really suggest people actually look into this shit and see the details for themselves before they talk

[thatGirl]

Like many subjects discussed here, the subject of war is personal/emotional.  While it is necessary, to the best of our abilities, to avoid glossing over the atrocities of war in hearts and minds, there is nothing ignorant or cruel in identifying the small bits of good that can be gleamed from horrors passed.  In fact, it seems like we'd be doing a disservice to those who perished by not acknowledging the technological advances acquired in the aftermath of those wars-- your deaths were not in vain.

Not arguing the semantics, but it seems pretty clear from the history books that isolationism doesn't work and is a poor defense strategy.

I know the topic has now been split and I don't shed man-tears, but the movie Lonesome Dove is my kryptonite...  I'm pretty sure the same goes for TG too 

[WhiteWolfReloaded]

At the same point we have to remember that had we not entered in to WW I&II we'd likely not have a lot of technology we do today. Particularly nuclear energy. Germany would've likely still become a radical regime and had full access. We can't say for sure if the Holocaust would've still taken place, but I'd assume so since the catalyst for the antisemitic propaganda was fueled by socioeconomic despair.

Of course, then we wouldn't have had all those Nazi bastards come over here in Operation Paperclip. As much as I hate war I have to admit there's something to be said for OT biblical dialogues. When you don't wipe your enemy clean from the earth and allow them to mingle with your own people corruption ensues.

so the deaths of over 269 million people is justified by technology, and some wild ignorant idea that (well germany probably would have done the same thing i guess) ?

i really suggest people actually look into this shit and see the details for themselves before they talk

Hardly justified, but I'm trying to see the light that came out of darkness.

[mountainredneck2051]

Like many subjects discussed here, the subject of war is personal/emotional.  While it is necessary, to the best of our abilities, to avoid glossing over the atrocities of war in hearts and minds, there is nothing ignorant or cruel in identifying the small bits of good that can be gleamed from horrors passed.  In fact, it seems like we'd be doing a disservice to those who perished by not acknowledging the technological advances acquired in the aftermath of those wars-- your deaths were not in vain.

Not arguing the semantics, but it seems pretty clear from the history books that isolationism doesn't work and is a poor defense strategy.

I know the topic has now been split and I don't shed man-tears, but the movie Lonesome Dove is my kryptonite...  I'm pretty sure the same goes for TG too 

name a single fucking war that was necessary


how bout the swiss? they keep their fucking troops home and they have been fine for a long damn time
what people seem to fail to realize is every war ever has been over two things, money and grasping for power, and quite often the power grasp has been over money too

[APX808]

name a single fucking war that was necessary

IMO all the revolutionary wars were a necessity.
Of all the wars I can remember from the last century I think WWII was the only one that deserved to be fought.

Wars suck but they existed and will continue existing, because like it or not, the sword is mightier than reason.

[thatGuy]

WWII was a war of western aggression, maaannnn.

/hippy

[thatGirl]

name a single fucking war that was necessary

IMO all the revolutionary wars were a necessity.
Of all the wars I can remember from the last century I think WWII was the only one that deserved to be fought.

Wars suck but they existed and will continue existing, because like it or not, the sword is mightier than reason.

 [URL=http://www.smileyvault.co

Well said APX, although I disagree about WWII being the only justified war this century.  I'm one of the schmucks that thinks Iraq and Afghanistan were necessary too, I just wish we'd held up our end of the deal in desert storm (not directed at the troops, good work men) and I wish more of the UN countries would be involved in the war on terror since it's other countries that are most threatened.  Let the shit storm ensue... 

[RS762]

So... why'd we go to Iraq again?

[mountainredneck2051]

so why is iraq and afghanistan necessary?

you believe the boogie man was hiding there with WMD's?

[JohnyMac]

I was O-kay with Afghanistan however not a fan of Iraq. Once we got OBL we should have left.

In all honesty, just like the Sunday fall football game...Hindsight is 20/20.

[thatGirl]

So... why'd we go to Iraq again?

so why is iraq and afghanistan necessary?

you believe the boogie man was hiding there with WMD's?

I'm not ignoring/avoiding this, but it can wait for another day.  I had an exciting morning beings able to type a little with both hands, but I'm back to one handed typing (rotator cuff tears are a bitch) and that's a long winded discussion.  Also, I didn't say that to discuss or defend my position, just wanted to give APX props, but I felt compelled to say that my stance is not 100% in line with what he said-- damn my honesty and striking good looks (huh?) 

BTW- I sleep with a strong, harry man and a .40 cal pistol.  It's obvious that I'm afraid the boogie man's in all kinds of places 

[mountainredneck2051]

he uses a 40 cal, i wouldn't feel safe either  [img]http://www.arrse.co.uk/at

[Currahee]

I had actually though of a long ranting reply to this thread while I was out doing my lunchtime PT, but decided to simply say this.

Arguing whether violence (and war by extension) is good or bad, justifyable or not, is completely asinine.  You might as well argue that the sun rising is bad.  It's going to happen, deal with it.

[mountainredneck2051]

attitudes like that is why the world is so fucked up curahee
deal with it

[APX808]

You need to change inside, and the world will change all around you, peaceeeeeeeeee maaaannn

[Currahee]

attitudes like that is why the world is so fucked up curahee
deal with it

It's an observation of fact, not an "attitude."

Humans are a living species on this planet, all species (individuals or teams of individuals, up to the nation state level) will compete with each other for resources. The ultimate expression of that competition is violence and war.  Sure, as long as resources are available they can be dealt with through business, but ultimately business leads to war.  Add human society's multiple levels of technology, mythology, history and nationalism and it gets worse.

In this thread people have espoused Switzerland's neutrality, as an example of a people that can choose NOT to go to war.  Do they not realize that the Swiss were one of the largest exporters of war and violence in history?  "Switzer" basically means professional soldier in middle German.  They were only able to remain neutral in WWII through that unique ability to deal on both sides to make the war more profitable for others (with them taking a cut.)  They recognize the inevitability of war and maintain one of the most the most militarized society in the world.

People in this thread have bragged on the Jeffersonian idea of business over war.  Which is great and all, but one of Jefferson's first acts of his presidency was to go to war to protect America's business interests, "Shores of Tripoli." Later, He purchased vast amounts of resources from the French which led the war and subjugation of entire societies.

Whether you choose to think war is necessary or not, or whether you believe a particular war is justified is never going to stop people from waging war on you.

Competition for resources (and war) are biological fact.  This is born out through the history of not just man, but all living things that have ever been.

[mountainredneck2051]

while i don't disagree with what your saying, you seem to just accept it as fact that this is the way life has been and is going to be

business only leads to war when governments are in charge, and that's what I got the problem with