Why Do People Overlook Solar As a Possible Electric Source

[JohnyMac]

As many of you know I was part of my radio clubs ARRL VHF contest this past weekend. You can read about it HERE. Anyway due to lightening and torrential rains we did a lot of chatting amongst ourselves off the radios. One topic that kept coming up was electricity during grid down times.

Over the past 2-weeks we have lost poser several times and once for 24-hours. I was happily surprised that quite a few club members had a generator, however, only one member (Old JohnyMac) had solar as a back up.

The ongoing generator discussions had differing topics, like, Generac vs. other manufactures, diesel vs. petrol & propane. Wiring directly into your house with a stationary generator or having a generator that was mobile. Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

When ever this discussion during the weekend would resurface, I would ask, "how are you going to replace the fuel you use to run your generator?" The answerer ranged from, "there will always be fuel" to blank faces. I kept stating that using solar, you do not need to replace the fuel. Well with the exception the fuel you may use to top off your solar batteries when you have a stretch of minimal sunlight.

The number one aversion to solar was cost.

So using a 18 Kw/H Generac will run you $6K for the generator and another $2K for installation which includes switches, wire, cement pad, etc. We are now looking at $8K.

Diesel is the most economical fuel to use while your generator uses propane at 2-3 gallons an hour. Although diesel is more economical it has maybe a 2-yr shelf life while propane has a shelf life of decades.

While we were sitting around waiting for the lightening to pass and we could get back on our radios, one of the guys received a text from his wife who had no power yet again (Second time in the week).

Okay, why do people need electricity? Some reasons may be,

> Keep frozen food frozen.
> Medical devises running.
> Pump water from a well.
> Maybe power a propane stove if you have one that requires 110/120 volts to light.
> Run a furnace in the winter.

I am sure I missed a few however, hopefully, I am making my point. Here are a few things that are not necessary.

> Internet.
> TV or entertainment center.
> Lights. A half a dozen or so LED lamps will suffice.

I am sure I missed a few here too.

Okay, now gas stations need electric to pump diesel. What happens if your electric is out for a month? Year? Even if you feed the generator from your 250 gallon diesel tank, how long will it last? 

If your generator runs off propane, you will be using 2-3 gallons an hour. A 100 gallon tank will use (24 hrs x 2 gallons an hr.) 48 gallons in a day. If you use propane for heating in the winter how much will 300 gallons last you?

In my opinion, the best option is solar backed up with a generator.

Solar for 80% of your needs and the generator to periodically top off your batteries if you have several days of minimal sunshine.

Sit down with your spouse and figure out exactly what you need. Maybe it is enough power to run refrigeration, furnace in the winter, and water pumping if you have a well. Once you have that number multiply it by 1.33% and that is the sized system you should be looking for. In my case I needed 3.7 Kw/H so I bought a 4.8 Kw/H system. Plus I have a very economical 3500 watt generator that can be used after 3-days of minimal sunshine to top off my batteries if needed. Just think about how long a 6-gallon gas can would last vs. running the generator 24/7.

Just a few thoughts from the redoubt. 

73

[Jackalope]

   Way back in the 1980's, I had a small alternate energy business, which mostly concentrated on wind power.  Later, I got into selling solar products too, in fact I still have a small ARCO panel that is over 40 years old which still produces power, though it's minimal. Anyways, the first thing I always did for clients was perform a monthly energy analysis.  We would look at the average monthly load, and determine how we could minimize power consumption.  There are many household loads that could be eliminated or switched to a different energy source.  For instance, switching an electric water heater to a gas or wood fired water heater.  Or, rather than having multiple freezers, use alternate methods of preserving food, like a solar dehydrator.  My advice was that it costs too much to totally replicate the power grid, instead diminish overall consumption through conservation, and then design a system to meet the reduced needs. 

     I've noticed that in several of the local MAG's, folks don't prepare for the long term.  Like Johny mentioned, folks are thinking that their generators are going to carry them long term.  Home generators will work fine for short term outages, like ice storms or hurricanes, but after a month or so, fuel is going to become an issue.  Parts will become an issue too.  I try to plan for generational outages, so I stock extra components, because failure do occur.  Folks in MAG's stock radios for emergencies.  I ask them how they intend on recharging their portable radio batteries, and they get that deer in the headlights look.  Small systems are extremely easy to assemble, and they can recharge a variety of items, plus they can be portable too.  Here, at my little homestead, there is a mix of portable and permanent systems.

     I've never considered the overall cost of my various solar systems.  I look at them as a necessity for comfortable survival.   One of reasons that I like solar, is that it doesn't have any moving parts.  Solar systems can be easy to assemble, and they can be very simple.  If you do install a system, make sure you document it well, for those that aren't electrically inclined.

[JohnyMac]

Jackalope, great comments. Thx. 

[Sir John Honeybucket]

Jackalope , good insight.  Here, as you mentioned, I have an assortment of small , portable solar systems.  There is also a medium system on my wood shop.  It's enough for lighting, recharging basically anything and of course, operating radios.   
The scanner is our number one source of local situational awareness and other radios are for learning about the State, region, nation and world, in that order. 

Yes, the central problem with people and alt power is that cheep and easy power has been a way of life for so long that few people have ANY idea how much they consume.  Refrigeration, unless a medical necessity, is nice to have but absolutely not essential. 

I remember one party I was invited to, while I lived aboard my little sailboat.  The hostess was getting a drink for me and asked if I'd like ice in it.  Evidently, I lit up, smiled and said " Yes please!" VERY eagerly, and she looked at me oddly, head tilted.  My girlfriend explained that I lived without refrigeration. And so, ice was a treat for me. Haha. You would have thought that I lived without oxygen.  However, I knew my needs versus my wants and that , divided by my available budget, space above deck for solar panels and below deck for batteries, I cut out any hope of refrigeration JUST to have a much simpler , economjcally sustainable and PEACEFUL life aboard. 

Later, some prissy vice president thought that he could intimidate me with a threat to my job.  I literally laughed in his face. " Well, do as you like, but DO understand that  as soon as I leave here, I step aboard my boat and go sailing for at least few years, so choose wisely." Bwaaa ha ha ha.  Threaten a Viking: bad idea.  Threaten to send him on vacation at sea: idiotic and a great source of humor.   I could live for uears aboard my hoat and had a savings deeper than two years of expences.  The prissy VP didn't understand that he had ZERO leverage at all.  There are emergencies of many kinds in life.  Best to be prepared. 

The same lessons you mentuoned apply to the home , particularly in emergency grid down planning. Basic lighting is important for home life after dark, plus safety and security ( threat detection and target acquisition )  . Radios for information and maybe some enjoyment are nice additions. After that, the power budget drops off rapidly.  ELECTRIC well pump would be a nice to have. We heat with wood, which is on site and I'm handy with an axe and bow saw(old school)
  I have a good work shop with old school HAND tools , all refurbished and sharp, and experience using them. 

The basic rule is if electricity is used to change the temperature of somehing , its going to require a lot of it.  A home power bill , a pencil and catalog for pricing is usually a REAL wake up call for the first time 'solar curious' person, seeing what it costs vs performance, even under ideal conditions. 

[Felix]

An embarrassment of riches here... people who have been there, done that... able to address issues many haven't even thought of.
Two years ago, the (then) wife and I signed and were approved for a fixed-rate loan to install a solar that would basically match our full averaged loan - 95k, 25 year amortization.   It fell through after the County failed to approve the original panel frame design because of its "flood zone" location, the alternative design was doable and not much more expensive but that's when she said, "no".   The low interest rate had me feeling sorry for whoever would have held that paper as inflation was something obviously on the near horizon.    Huge investment, not paid off by us but by heirs who would inhabit the Compound after we were gone.    And a resource for what I hope would be a MAG.   Long term thinking, even if a bit on the grandiosely optimistic.
Fast forward to now.    Still have the 10kw propane Bobcat welder/generator with two tanks of propane - something I've always known was time finite and liable to possible breakdown.  And now, looking at bare bones - loads need to include "X" number of hours well pump hours (thankfully those big, long loads only occur in summer for watering garden) two refrigerators, an oxygen concentrator and CPap.    A few LEDs but not much... water I can heat on the woodstove(s).    I too have axes, bowsaw, etc. and live in a forest.   Since I am now "property rich" (until real estate prices come crashing down again) and "cash poor", I think my only alternative to getting something put together _before it is too late_ is to take the tax hit and withdraw from IRA.   
As a percentage of the IRA, this will not be huge - the much bigger issue is where and how Merrill Lynch has those resources invested for me - currently the market sectors/assets they have me in show little to no resilience against the lose of purchasing power the all see, the theft of inflation hitting us hard now.  And as far out as I can see - maybe even hyper-inflation, with/without a war between us and Russians or China...
Easy to see how someone might get discouraged with the walls of worry closing in - but bored?    Never.   ;-)

[JohnyMac]

Sir John, I love the refrigeration on the boat story.

On our boat, which we lived on for 11-years, we had an ice box. I would buy a block of ice, about 20# and a bag of cubes once a week. Total expense at the time I think was $3-. And yes ice was a luxury.

With that written, we could leave the dock and the world behind us in a NY minute and literally never look back. If we needed money, we could get work in pretty much any port. My wife was a chef who wouldn't hesitate cooking again or waiting a table. I could get a job at any marine yard, or work for myself as a boat nanny.

That kind of freedom always felt great.

Felix, MrsMac and I are slowly cashing out of all our investments as things are rather stagnant anyway. There is also a better than 50/50 chance that we may loose everything thanks to the current administration.

My neighbor just cashed in his 401K before he should have to buy a used 95 HP New Holland tractor, hay bailer, hay cutter, and hay rake. His logic was that he would rather have a bird in his hand then a promise for more money in the future. His accountant freaked out. He just laughed.

Today, our only REAL expense is school and property tax on 34-acres. All told around $2K. Food costs are minimal as we grow a lot of our veggies (Not this year though due to all the rain we have received). Yes we have other expenses however, we can live without most of them in a heart beat.

We do not need electric for the freezers, water, etc. Since our property is about 80% hard woods, heat is taken care of, and if propane becomes an issue, we can cook outside and/or on the wood stove. 

I could go on and on but I do not want to bore the readers.

Good discussion.