Author Topic: War? Crash? Tougher Times Ahead?  (Read 1563 times)

Offline gapatriot

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Re: War? Crash? Tougher Times Ahead?
« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2014, 06:46:43 AM »
I do have some cool stuff coming down the pike, but they are on hold. Life keeps getting in the way of me having fun.

Offline JohnyMac

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Re: War? Crash? Tougher Times Ahead?
« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2014, 07:44:23 AM »
Gap  :lmfao:

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Offline Well-Prepared Witch

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Re: War? Crash? Tougher Times Ahead?
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2014, 12:08:58 PM »
Rah's comment, "The price of liberty for all, as long as you aren't violating someone else's rights, is that people can do things without your approval" is so spot on! 

For another side of the coin - many of us who are not conservative Christians look at the Religious Reich as the ones ruining the country with their bigotry, their desire for us to turn the clock backwards, and their efforts to steal away the rights for which we've fought so hard. 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale was supposed to be a warning, not an instruction manual!

As to JM's original question, I go back and forth.  Some days I think that this is all normal, status quo for human kind to be killing each other in many ways for various reasons.  Empires rise and fall, mores change as we evolve and grow.  Other days I look at our resources dwindling, our world getting smaller so there's less room for the non-conformists and the anti-social types (both the human and country varieties), our methods of killing each other expanding and killing more people. 

So, in essence, I don't know.  I think there will always be unrest in the world.  War is, for better or worse, a human constant since prior to written history.  Disease is one of the ways Nature weeds out the weak and allows for evolution of new and interesting mutations.  Resources are, by definition, finite and with more people there's more stress on them. 

Does this mean that TEOTWAWKI is around the corner?  *shrug* Who knows?
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Offline JohnyMac

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Re: War? Crash? Tougher Times Ahead?
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2014, 10:31:39 PM »
Quote
Wellie wrote:
I've said it before and I'll say it again, Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale was supposed to be a warning, not an instruction manual!

Thanks Wellie for your recommendation and I did read the novel again.

The book reminded me of Oliver Cromwell's government post the English Civil War BUT modern day.

I am a Christian but with that said, I do not and will not be part of a US Civil War UNLESS I am pushed into a corner.

I know that some of my liberal friends are VERY fearful of this type of change in politics.
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Offline USMC0331

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Re: War? Crash? Tougher Times Ahead?
« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2014, 11:53:48 PM »
Quote
Rah's comment, "The price of liberty for all, as long as you aren't violating someone else's rights, is that people can do things without your approval" is so spot on!

The problem becomes when money is extorted out of the tax payer to provide one group their "rights" at the expense of the others not to want to participate.  So If I stop paying taxes because I don't support murdering unborn children (which my tax dollars are being used for) then is it a victim less crime that they have a "right" to that doesn't violate mine when I'm sent to prison for it? 
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Offline rah45

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Re: War? Crash? Tougher Times Ahead?
« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2014, 09:02:18 AM »
You're spot on, USMC. Like I said, it only works as intended if everyone respects all of each other's freedoms, not just a select portion. They have the right as human beings to have males screw males, females screw females, etc. However, that influence starts, and should stop, in the private/unofficial channels. Nobody needs government to stick it's nose in it and legislate acceptance. That's not government's intended role. It's an abuse of influence and power.

Offline Well-Prepared Witch

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Re: War? Crash? Tougher Times Ahead?
« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2014, 10:04:37 AM »
I disagree (shocker, I know).  I don't want my taxes paying for invasions of countries without WMDs, deportation of refugee children, or subsidies for sports stadiums and corporations.  However, I still pay my taxes (mostly gladly) because I want roads, hospitals, social security so the elderly and the infirm aren't starving (or having to move in with me! My mom is on disability because of a chronic illness), fire departments who will come when my house is on fire, etc.  The thing about these choices is that they're compromises

I'm not naive enough to believe that I can get everything I want while other people get nothing that they want, or that the only things people can get are based on my beliefs and needs.  There are too many people on this small planet for anarchy, or even some kind of "every man for himself" way of being to succeed.  Not to mention that we need each other - I'm not a good shoemaker or auto mechanic, but I can raise and cook a tasty chicken and knit a sweater.  So we come to compromises that let us live together.

That, essentially, is what government is - people who make the decisions that allow us to occupy the same spaces.  Now, what kind of government and which choices they make is an open question.  I'd love a smaller government, but so many small government people just want it small enough to fit into my uterus, and small enough to fit through the keyhole of my bedroom door and tell me what decisions I can make or who I can love, while letting them do whatever the hell they want with their corporations, including poisoning my food supply, our water, our air, and the rest of our planet. 

Small government is a great concept, but I don't know how well it works when people seem completely unwilling to consider their neighbor's needs when they make their own choices, and seem unwilling to work with people of varying beliefs, colors, and nationalities to make things that benefit all of us.
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Offline rah45

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Re: War? Crash? Tougher Times Ahead?
« Reply #32 on: July 28, 2014, 10:21:54 AM »
I can agree with part of your post, Wellie. I think that with the population of the world the way it is, without government  purely as an organizational entity, we would be in trouble. However, like I was saying, I don't think government should overreach, either. It shouldn't tell people who they should love. It shouldn't make me pay for a woman's abortion. It shouldn't make me pay into a failed social security system for a grandmother I don't know who didn't save money to help herself in her old age, and hasn't learned any marketable skill to make up for her decreased physical abilities due to aging. I don't want to pay for the upkeep for millions of people streaming across the border, many of which have no intention of becoming Americans and continuing our (traditional) way of life, and are only here because they didn't or couldn't fix their own nations' problems.

All of these things can be addressed individually. You feel bad for a Hispanic family? Fine, adopt one of the kids, or get together with a private organization and pool your resources to bring the entire family over. Want to invade the Middle East for "X" reason? Okay. Get an organization together, raise funds and pay a mercenary group to do your dirty work. Mercs can be just as effective as the military.

Issues like toxic waste poisoning the air...well that affects everyone, even other continents if the problem became bad enough. Things like that do require a governing body to intercede on the behalf of all.

Offline JohnyMac

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Re: War? Crash? Tougher Times Ahead?
« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2014, 11:20:56 AM »
Wellie makes a good case.

When I think of big government I think of departments within the government that prevent people from living like they have for centuries - The EPA immediately comes to mind.

While this government agency was started with all good intentions; heck we all like clean water and air however someone telling me that I do not own the water that falls from the sky. Or my neighbors can't sell the milk from their cow and goats - Is an example of a agency that has overstepped their original charter. That is just one agency in a the cornucopia we call Federal Government.

Government by nature wants to grow not unlike private and public organizations want to grow. A quick JohnyMac story is appropriate here.

I am a Scotsman so by nature I was/am cheap and never used G&A and Capital dollars that were budgeted for the previous budgeting cycle. I use to be ridiculed by other VP's in charge of divisions for not using those dollars. In some cases I was called on the carpet for not using the budgeted dollars and told by those boss's, "Use it before you lose it."

At the end of August, beginning of September, we started the budgeting process for the coming year.
During this process the VP's of their division were encouraged to budget a % more for G&A and capital expenditures then we used for the previous (Current year).

Why you ask... Again it is like the government it is human nature to want to be in charge of more and bigger bureaucracy's.

So it happens in public companies just like it happens in government.

One last comment, our current Federal government no longer fears the citizenry. We have moved into a period where the citizenry fears the Federal Government. Whether you are left or right you must understand this and work towards making our Federal Government leaner and responsive to the citizenry. 
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Offline USMC0331

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Re: War? Crash? Tougher Times Ahead?
« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2014, 09:24:52 PM »
I know this... .gov will not give up their corrupt power, history has proven that it must be taken back by the people.  Get ready, the war is coming sooner than you think.
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Burt Gummer

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Re: War? Crash? Tougher Times Ahead?
« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2014, 10:32:39 PM »
I think a good religious dicussion would probably breathe some life back into this forum if those contributing to it could behave like adults wit just a smidgen of logic...

Offline USMC0331

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Re: War? Crash? Tougher Times Ahead?
« Reply #36 on: July 29, 2014, 12:15:05 AM »
Don't do it.... it's a trap! LOL
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Offline Grudgie

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Re: War? Crash? Tougher Times Ahead?
« Reply #37 on: July 29, 2014, 01:08:15 AM »
Quote
  I don't want my taxes paying for invasions of countries without WMDs, deportation of refugee children, or subsidies for sports stadiums and corporations. However, I still pay my taxes (mostly gladly) because I want roads, hospitals, social security so the elderly and the infirm aren't starving (or having to move in with me! My mom is on disability because of a chronic illness), fire departments who will come when my house is on fire, etc.  The thing about these choices is that they're compromises

Sorry to veer off.. but are you implying these things wouldn't exist if there wasn't a governing body taking your money? Or are you saying the government does these things better than the private market, in spite of their murdering, stealing, corruption, and rape?

I almost felt guilty about starting this shit. You all were getting along so niceley until I popped in. But then I realized the ammount of violence that statists impose on people, and I decided to post anyway.

« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 01:11:57 AM by Grudgie »

Offline special-k

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Re: War? Crash? Tougher Times Ahead?
« Reply #38 on: July 29, 2014, 01:09:34 AM »
I think a good religious dicussion would probably breathe some life back into this forum if those contributing to it could behave like adults wit just a smidgen of logic...


I seem to recall the last time we tried that......

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Re: War? Crash? Tougher Times Ahead?
« Reply #39 on: July 29, 2014, 03:04:53 AM »
I seem to recall the last time we tried that......
Yeah that didn't end up all to well... probably because my little caviat of "a smidgen of logic" tends to not exist when talking religion.


Most of the drama that was derived from that was due to what I believe are our presumptions of attitude tied to the text we read from others. That means that you can read the same sentence in more then one way yet we tend to read the posts here only once, and because we're all the best we know at reading we are certain it was correct the first time.  :sarcasm:
I am fully aware that to some I might seem as a "condescending know it all" or a "arrogant blabber mouth"! I notice it some times via responses but I'll never act on them.
This is always pops up on sensitive topics, where one party will misread or impose an additional meaning on a comment and then self righteously retaliates, then the person defending believes the attack is unwarranted and also believes he is correct retaliation. Next thing you know combat pm's start flying, minority opinions get rounded up put into camps and negative karma warheads are launched!

Keep in mind that whining and BS like this makes this forum seem petty and a hassle instead of a benefit. This has always been the reason why good people leave the forum, technique, Old Iron, MountainRedneck (who's doing well btw)
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but like myself could loose a few pounds ;D


Side note: what we prep for takes courage, and so does standing up for what you know to be right. This includes responding to difficult questions and admitting to yourself when you were incorrect. Look at this as practice, "social range time" .

Offline rah45

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Re: War? Crash? Tougher Times Ahead?
« Reply #40 on: July 29, 2014, 06:08:07 AM »
Good points, Burt.

brat

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Re: War? Crash? Tougher Times Ahead?
« Reply #41 on: July 29, 2014, 06:50:17 AM »
Wow, very nicely stated Burt.


Offline JohnyMac

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Re: War? Crash? Tougher Times Ahead?
« Reply #42 on: July 29, 2014, 09:17:37 AM »
It sounds like people are all in agreement. If a discussion on a touchy topic comes up like but not limited to religion, don't get butt-hurt.

May I also state, that if you feel insulted send a PM direct to the person who you feel insulted you. Don't flame-out here where everybody can read it. 
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