Collective Justice Vs. Individual Justice

[JohnyMac]

Collective Justice Vs. Individual Justice

I was in an interesting discussion on another board concerning the Kavanaugh drama. The person I was debating was venomously defending Dr. Ford and tearing apart Judge Kavanaugh. I kept putting out the facts of the non-testimony by Ford. Let’s review.

Ford can’t remember what year alleged incident happened. The witnesses she offered to collaborate the incident refuted her recollection. Can’t remember what house it happened in but clearly remembers she only had one beer. Does not remember how she got home. Then I pointed out that amongst the already stated inconsistency’s, she coached a friend who was going into the FBI for a job interview and polygraph session that all FBI applicants take. At last Thursday’s testimony before the Senate Judicial Committee testimony she claimed that she never gave advise to others on how to get through a polygraph. Et cetera.

Well finally the person I was having this debate with threw up her hands and said, “Well it doesn’t matter if Kavanaugh did this or not. There are women all over the world that this has happened too, and I will continue to support her!”

WOW, it then hit me as hard as taking a hammer to my Scottish noggin. She was fighting for Collective Justice NOT Individual Justice.

Looking at the Bill of Rights, specifically the Fifth and Sixth Amendment, our country is based on Individual Justice not Collective Justice. Take a minute to reread these two amendments.

We are hearing often now that America is a white male dominated country or a patriarchal society and this must be reversed. How do we reverse the past you might ask. Well we are seeing it happen all around us daily. This is called the 'post modernism' movement.

The American Heritage Dictionary defines post modernism as,

Of or relating to art, architecture, or literature that reacts against earlier modernist principles, as by reintroducing traditional or classical elements of style or by carrying modernist styles or practices to extremes: "It [a roadhouse]is so architecturally interesting . . . with its postmodern wooden booths and sculptural clock”

We witness it in our schools and our universities. We see it in the slanted media. We see it in the sitcoms on television and our late evening comedians. If it continues and goes unchecked, we will experience a Civil War not unlike Robespierre’s French Revolution. Take a minute to do a search on the French Revolution to fully understand my meaning. The Collective took over and made the Bourgeoisie (Middle class) and Aristocracy (Rich/Influential) pay for the faults of the past.

So today after you read this, take some time to think upon what I am writing. Is the Kavanaugh drama a Collective Society Vs. Individual Society playing out at a high level? Is this the beginning of a Civil War brought on by post modernism? I would like to hear your thoughts.

Peace.

[CJS06]

Johny

I agree with you.  A very overly simplified way of looking at it is the fight between feelings and facts.  Most of the "I believe her" movement is based off of feelings (collective justice), while most Kavanaugh supporters are like yourself basing their decisions off of the facts (individual justice).  The left is going farther to the point of fascist behaviour of demonizing anyone who "feels" other than their way and going so far as resorting to violence.

If proof comes out that the Judge was guilty I truly would oppose his selection, but that is not the all or nothing view of the left.  They want him skinned alive because , well "because".  There is no context or nuance with the left, it is all or nothing virtue signaling (I hate that term) that has anyone who is a rational thinker ending up being demonized.

I believe that the void is growing by the minute, and I believe that CWII is under way.  Not a hot war that has gone to guns (yet at least), but definitely an ideological war that is driving policy at the highest levels and personal relationships at the base levels.  I hope it doesnt, but if the course we are on continues to devolve then a hot war could result.  If that is the case it will start with skirmishes between the sides and it will be interest to see how the Gov reacts and which "side" they will determine is in the right.  Of course the right will never be determined until it is over and then it will always be the side of the victor.

Chris

[Nemo]

Certain sectors of this country are trying to push the rest into a Collectvie Justice society.   Basically thats into a Socialist/Communist political society.  Everyone is equal, from everyone according to his capabilities, to everyone according to his needs.  No one gets more, no one gets less.  Read Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Orwell.

That is not acceptable to me.  I will not accept it and will steal their mantra-- Resist.

Nemo

[JohnyMac]

CJS and Nemo, you bring up valuable comments and thoughts.

Lets keep this discussion rolling. If you think my comments are off base PLEASE set me right. 

[Jackalope]

    What concerns me is that Kavanuagh has to prove himself innocent, rather than his detractors proving him guilty.  At this point, if you're a white male, then you're guilty of something.  The good thing about this entire debacle is that folks, especially males, are starting wake up regarding the metoo movement and about feminazis.  I've said for many years, that the feminization of society is going to contribute to the downfall of America.  It is certainly a problem when feelings and sentiments over rule laws.  Let's get America back to its roots, where the Constitution is the foundation of our government. 

[gadget99]

I agree with much that has been said in this thread.

The sad truth is that western societies have been changing for a good while now.

The basis of a fair judicial system where the concept of "innocent until proven guilty" has been eroded significantly over the years.

Trial by the press, public sentiment and political expediency has become the rule.

It is not just in the instance that we are discussing. This has been happening for a long time.

Think about the fact that in many crimes the weight of he said she said testimony now carries significant weight in the judicial system. A similar distinction can be drawn in cases where guilt by association now carries penalties as strong as those afforded to the individual the committed the offence. Our society continues to demand stiffer penalties on crimes in the name of justice. So the political elite create knee jerk legislation to appease the masses for political gain. Almost always these forms of legislation hold broad sweeping consequences for the populace. It may not be to far of a stretch to claim that an honest citizen is not far from jail due to the vast quantity of laws that are in the systems today.

An example of this is the policy of civil forfeiture. This resulted from the screaming of the public for action to curb crime. So in response the politicians created the ability for police to seize assets. The thing here is that in a manner the populace cannot complain about abuse of this. Considering that the populace demanded for and allowed the enabling legislation to be created.

This is a VERY complex subject and I will not be able to cover all of my thoughts on this in a forum post.

Lets look at a sad chapter in Illinois. While I support the death penalty. I however do not support a system that operates upon the premise that it ok to execute a few innocent people as long as we get more bad people. Illinois found out how that works out.

So here we are. The premise of our system is supposed to be that you are innocent until proven guilty. However society no longer operates that way. This is endemic in all aspects of our society. The cards are stacked against anyone has or is suspected to have done something wrong. I am not advocating letting criminals do as they wish. I am however advocating a return to a more sensible system that is in line with the intent of our founding fathers.

Take a look at the fact that an individual that commits a crime has two levels of sentence. One that is in tune with the intent of our founding fathers. Commit a crime, get convicted, receive sentence, do your sentence and then debt to society is done. Then we have the addition of the life long sentence. The individual has a criminal record for life that affects every aspect of their lives for life. Yet this is acceptable to the populace as it creates an impression that this will protect them from all of the bad people out there. Logically this example is another example where the public has surrendered portions of their liberty in return for a faulty sense of security.

So this has brought us to the crux of the issue.

All of this as well as the initial subject of this thread can be attributed to a modern phenomena that is slowly strangling western society.

We the people have been and continue to surrender portions of our freedom and liberty in the pursuit of a sense of security. The worst part of this is that there is no answer to the issue. We have been sliding down the rabbit hole for far to long. The rot has become woven into the collective conscious of our society. Unrealistic beliefs have taken the place of commons sense. Nothing bad should ever happen. There should be no crime.

Innocent until proven guilty does not exist in modern society and unfortunately cannot every exist again in a society that values a sense of security over liberty or freedom.

Cheers all               

[gadget99]

Hey all......

I hope my post did not kill this thread.

I was looking forward to the debate.

[JohnyMac]

Nahhhhh. People are just busy. 

[grizz]

I understand what you're saying and also see how the courts are legislating law vs enforcing it. Since Trump was elected there have been at half dozen or so judges "rule" him to be in the wrong and tie up the system.

[gadget99]

I may be pretty jaded in my views.

Yet I do believe that the best answer to our woes and societies downward spiral is the reset a SHTF would bring on.

Really not wishing for SHTF but understanding how drastic the changes are needed to bring some common sense back to society.

[grizz]

I may be pretty jaded in my views.

Yet I do believe that the best answer to our woes and societies downward spiral is the reset a SHTF would bring on.

Really not wishing for SHTF but understanding how drastic the changes are needed to bring some common sense back to society.

I think we are going to win big this Nov and the left will go nuts but the real start will be 2020 when Trump wins again.

Actually I think its already started so I would be more accurate to say it will escalate this Nov and again in 2020

[Nemo]

Kavanaugh was confirmed to SCOTUS.  He was sworn in a few hours later.  He will be on the bench for the next cases, being argued October 9.  See below.

With all the screaming of impeachment toward him and Trump from the blue side of the aisle, I would not at all be surprised at a half dozen seat pickup in the House and a few or more in the Senate on the red side of the aisle.
 
Assuming that is correct, post election November will be most interesting.  The rest of the winter will be mostly quiet but with some serious controversies come late January next year.  Expect substantial issues at the March for Life annual gathering on the Mall in DC.  I anticipate things will get quiet until March or so and wide open come the summer. 

If you were planning a tourist visit to DC in the near future, make it the November or wait till late fall next year.

Considering 2020 elections expect a major nationwide political upheaval, to the point of major economic disruption should Trump be re-elected.

Look to the idea of secession be realistically discussed and advanced along the coasts.

How will Kavanaugh decide things on the court?  I expect Roe v Wade is mostly secure, with more definitive limitations regarding viability, Heller will be strengthened and state limitations be substantially diminished.

Or the hell in a handbasket idea will become true, I don't know the first thing about anything and my future telling skills suck.  <-- that sentence is probably most accurate.

Remember, 3 Bs, plus 2.

Nemo


Interesting note

posted here 2039 EDT but with no photo
https://www.supremecourt.gov/about/biographies.aspx

Brett M. Kavanaugh, Associate Justice,
was born in Washington, D.C., on February 12, 1965. He married Ashley Estes in 2004 and they have two daughters - Margaret and Liza. He received a B.A. from Yale College in 1987 and a J.D. from Yale Law School in 1990. He served as a law clerk for Judge Walter Stapleton of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit from 1990-1991, for Judge Alex Kozinski of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit from 1991-1992, and for Justice Anthony M. Kennedy of the U.S. Supreme Court during the 1993 Term. In 1992-1993, he was an attorney in the Office of the Solicitor General of the United States. From 1994 to 1997 and for a period in 1998, he was Associate Counsel in the Office of Independent Counsel Kenneth W. Starr. He was a partner at Kirkland & Ellis in Washington, D.C., from 1997 to 1998 and again from 1999 to 2001. From 2001 to 2003, he was Associate Counsel and then Senior Associate Counsel to the President. From 2003 to 2006, he was Assistant to the President and White House Staff Secretary. He was appointed a Judge of the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit in 2006. President Donald J. Trump nominated him as an Associate Justice of the Supreme Court, and he took his seat on October 6, 2018.
Remember, 3 Bs plus 2. 

https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/calendars/MonthlyArgumentCalOctober2018.html

Tuesday, October 9

(1)

17-5554         STOKELING V. UNITED STATES

(2)

17-765)          UNITED STATES V. STITT

17-766)          UNITED STATES V. SIMS                                     (Consolidated   1 hr. for argument)

[grizz]

We should trade our coastal states to Canada in exchange for BC and the Yukon