the people get the goverment they deserve

[EJR914]

Take a look at what moonshiners go through - it's still illegal in the US to distill whiskey without a license - because of tax revenues.

Well that's blatantly FALSE.  You are free to make a large personal amount of alcohol for personal and family and friend's use, you can make moonshine, drink all of that moonshine, and you have done NOTHING illegal.

All the government cares about is its TAX.  If you sell the moonshine you MAKE, you have to pay the government TAX on it.  There are plenty of people out there doing it. 

You can make and consume all that you want of that large personal use amount of moonshine all day long and you have broken NO LAW. 

20 dollar joint?  Fine by me.  The government withholds the authority and the power to Tax.

[NOLA556]

RS I used to think the same thing about Cannabis until I worked for a week with a few guys that enjoyed a "one blunt lunch" - and some of the shit I saw those cats do was downright scary.  Where and how would we draw the line at what constitutes impairment?  And how would we test for it?  Field "sobriety" tests?  Think about this as well:  You'll get more government to establish standards and enforce them, taxes, and costs.  Want a glimpse into what'll happen?  Take a look at what moonshiners go through - it's still illegal in the US to distill whiskey without a license - because of tax revenues.  You think unca sugar is going to let you grow something he can't tax the shit out of?  Awww hell no.  So the IRS grows, the EPA grows, the DoJ grows, the FDA grows and we get bent over for the cost.  Welcome to the world of the $20 joint.

bro, I understand where you're going with your argument. I don't disagree 100% BUT... doesn't it sound eerily similar to "guns are too dangerous for people to be allowed to own"? or "people can't be trusted to grow and sell their own organic foods/raw milk, etc..."

for all the reasonable points you've made in support of prohibition, ask yourself this: do you own your body? presumably, you'll say yes. ok, we've established that you own your body, it's your own private property. now, who has the constitutional authority to tell you what you can and can't put in your body? I'm not arguing the pros vs. cons of legalization, I'm just bringing the debate back to it's root. Just the same way the recent SCOTUS ruling on Obamacare set a new precedent for what the fed gov can force upon you, prohibition of controlled substances sets the precedent that you don't truly own your body/life because the state has the (supposed) authority to dictate what you can and can't do to it. what's next? some dumb kid gets HepC from a tattoo and then... what?... tattoos are illegal? they're DANGEROUS, after all.

drug prohibition (IMHO) is not one bit different from any other nanny-state program. like I said before, I'm not arguing the pros vs. cons, surely some of the negative side effects that you've listed would manifest. I don't argue that. but an old friend and mentor of mine once said:

 "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."

[Treaded]

Alright kiddo straight from the federal law: http://www.ttb.gov/spirits/faq.shtml  - note it makes no difference whether the spirits are for personal use or sale - the law is the law.

Spirits

You may not produce spirits for beverage purposes without paying taxes and without prior approval of paperwork to operate a distilled spirits plant.  [See 26 U.S.C. 5601 & 5602 for some of the criminal penalties.]  There are numerous requirements that must be met that also make it impractical to produce spirits for personal or beverage use.  Some of these requirements are paying special tax, filing an extensive application, filing a bond, providing adequate equipment to measure spirits, providing suitable tanks and pipelines, providing a separate building (other than a dwelling) and maintaining detailed records, and filing reports.  All of these requirements are listed in 27 CFR Part 19.

Spirits may be produced for non-beverage purposes for fuel use only without payment of tax, but you also must file an application, receive TTB's approval, and follow requirements, such as construction, use, records and reports."

There's the law.  Don't believe me?  Call 1-202-453-2000 and ask 'em.


RS I'm hearing you. I agree with the stance the branches of government have no right to tell you what to do to your body.  And if we took all the morality and ethics out of government and made it a purely mechanical system then yeah, it'd work.  It would also require the premise that you do no harm to others in your actions - which is about as feasible as flying moose in our society.  But that's not going to happen - the politicians are never going to completely wipe away social programs under the current system.  I'm not a libertarian nor am I conservative or liberal - I'm a realist.  And that mis-quoted phrase attributed to Tytler is a reality we are faced with.  Social handout programs aren't going away.  Social security won't go away.  We're not going to get rid of medicare, medicaid, subsidized student loan programs and grants, subsidized housing, nada.  We're stuck with it.  Until the cycle completes and the people get tired of sucking the burden it's not going to change.  Libertarians will never gain traction in this country until it's too late simply because the average person is more worried about things like Ipods, TV, facebook, and all the other breads and circuses .gov and our culture dishes out so handily.  That's a reality.  The sheeple are still asleep.   

There's a fine line between pure liberty and anarchy.  Pure liberty requires people to self-govern.  Do you really think that people in this country could self-govern themselves? The answer is no.  That's why we end up with looting in disasters, mobs beating people when a court ruling doesn't go their way, etc.  The mentality of the average American isn't mature enough to self-govern hence they act like savages and animals given the chance.   

[RS762]

I'll take my chances with Anarchy over Tyranny Treaded.

[Treaded]

I'll take my chances with Anarchy over Tyranny Treaded.

Don't worry it's coming.  The republic is dead.  The first nail was driven in during Hamilton's administration and they keep getting pounded in more every year.  Tyranny is the next step and we're seeing the initial stages of it even now.  It may not happen during our lifetimes but the die is cast.  Even getting guys like Ron Paul or Johnson in office will not prevent it - it may delay it but the die has been cast.  Are you aware of what has historically normally risen out of anarchy?  Communism, collectivism, or theocracy.  If there's not a great die-off of the ever increasing free shit army when things collapse or anarchy sets in then that's what we're bound for.  They may call it a "democracy" but in reality that's what we have now - we are no longer a constitutional representative republic founded on democracy but an almost pure democracy in which the majority of people vote in their selfish interests and those elected pander to such without regards to liberty or freedom or equality.       

We are not in the majority.  Despite how vocal we may be the artificial oligarchy that currently exists (there's the monarchy in the equation) in DC gives not a care for how loudly we scream about the constitution and the law.  A good example is the "targeting list".  Execution without due process of American Citizens.  Even when the left, center, and right coalesce into one voice on the subject it made no difference.  Politicians on every side came out in support of it with few dissenting voices among them.

Like I stated - nothing is going to stop the cycle. What comes out the other end is going to be influenced by the majority.  And until that majority wakes up to the tyranny already in their face nothing is going to move in a positive manner at all.

[RS762]

....

[special-k]

Some time ago, I came to the conclusion that criminalizing these substances creates more problems than it solves.  Plus the whole ownership of one's body is a cut & dry issue with me.  That's all I have to say about that.

[NOLA556]

like I said before Treaded, not a single point that you've brought up is invalid. they're all fantastic points, and you put up a strong argument. my one major problem with your whole argument is that you don't seem to believe in individual liberty, you'd rather allow the state to take the reins and dictate these things to us because "people are incapable of self-governance". this is the ideology of a liberal. (I'm not calling you a liberal, just pointing out that most of the points you make, at their core, are music to a liberal's ears)

[Treaded]

like I said before Treaded, not a single point that you've brought up is invalid. they're all fantastic points, and you put up a strong argument. my one major problem with your whole argument is that you don't seem to believe in individual liberty, you'd rather allow the state to take the reins and dictate these things to us because "people are incapable of self-governance". this is the ideology of a liberal. (I'm not calling you a liberal, just pointing out that most of the points you make, at their core, are music to a liberal's ears)

Ya need to reread what I've said.  The people I'm talking about being incapable of self governance are those that are already on the public teat or those that will go on it at first chance.  I'm against creating conditions that will increase those numbers.  Don't get me wrong - if I could legalize cannabis and cut any kind of government funded rehab and treatment out and tell 'em "you screwed  up, you suffer" I would in a heartbeat. I'm also for kicking kids off food stamps and welfare.  fuck 'em.  You had them, you feed them.  I also am strongly against any kind of college student loans subsidization.  You want a liberal arts degree - pay for it yourself.  Federal unemployment?  Same thing.  Foreclosure - fuck it you should read the fine print next time.  The free shit army IS one of the primary contributing causes to the death of this republic. 

The bottom line is I don't want a condition created that grows the free shit army any larger than it already is.  We've already got 8 million on disability alone in this country.  That's more than the population of the majority of individual states.  I'm a realist in telling you that you aren't going to get rid of the social programs - the majority ain't going to let it happen.  So why would we do something that increases the rolls?  It's not liberal, it's not conservative - it's reality.  You can call a mule a zebra 100 times but it's still a mule.

[NOLA556]

like I said before Treaded, not a single point that you've brought up is invalid. they're all fantastic points, and you put up a strong argument. my one major problem with your whole argument is that you don't seem to believe in individual liberty, you'd rather allow the state to take the reins and dictate these things to us because "people are incapable of self-governance". this is the ideology of a liberal. (I'm not calling you a liberal, just pointing out that most of the points you make, at their core, are music to a liberal's ears)

Ya need to reread what I've said.  The people I'm talking about being incapable of self governance are those that are already on the public teat or those that will go on it at first chance.  I'm against creating conditions that will increase those numbers.  Don't get me wrong - if I could legalize cannabis and cut any kind of government funded rehab and treatment out and tell 'em "you screwed  up, you suffer" I would in a heartbeat. I'm also for kicking kids off food stamps and welfare.  fuck 'em.  You had them, you feed them.  I also am strongly against any kind of college student loans subsidization.  You want a liberal arts degree - pay for it yourself.  Federal unemployment?  Same thing.  Foreclosure - fuck it you should read the fine print next time.  The free shit army IS one of the primary contributing causes to the death of this republic. 

The bottom line is I don't want a condition created that grows the free shit army any larger than it already is.  We've already got 8 million on disability alone in this country.  That's more than the population of the majority of individual states.  I'm a realist in telling you that you aren't going to get rid of the social programs - the majority ain't going to let it happen.  So why would we do something that increases the rolls?  It's not liberal, it's not conservative - it's reality.  You can call a mule a zebra 100 times but it's still a mule.

honestly bro, I really can't disagree with you there. often times I battle with myself inside my head about what I truly believe in. on one hand, I'm the same realist (pessimist) that you are, and on the other hand, I don't want to "give in" to the system, so-to-speak. I don't want to just accept the "way things are" because IMO that's exactly how we got in this mess in the first place. But to fight for principal truly is a futile effort (as you've stated, and I agree). It's a pipe-dream. So what does one do? Where do you plant your feet in the ground and draw the line? Of course, it's an open-ended question. I don't know the answer to it. I think it's exactly the same reason why so many people run their keyboard-commando mouths about revolution, but as soon as the youtube video ends, they go right back to being the keyboard-commando that they really are. it's because no one wants to become a martyr all by themselves. you join an established rebel force, and you're a freedom-fighter, but you go shoot a banker or a politician on your own and you're a terrorist. (I'm NOT condoning or supporting anything here!!!! just making a point!)

all I'm really saying is that the attitude you have, while probably the most realistic, is also the most defeatist, and that won't get us anywhere. Fighting for principal may be futile, but which side of that isle do you want to tell your grandchildren you stood on? Your guy won't get elected if everyone says "my vote doesn't count, so I'm not going to bother", just like "fighting for your principals is a pipe dream because the rest of society is so fucked up"... sure, society is fucked up, and you have a choice. fight for principal, or stand by the wayside and let it all burn down. it may likely burn down regardless of your efforts, but like I said before, what side of that isle do you want to stand on?

[Treaded]

Defeatist maybe.  Aww fuck it.  I guess I'm through arguing it.   

yeah right Now seriously - voting has nothing to do with what I'm writing about.  Yeah I still vote and still campaign against jacked up stuff but in the same instance I'm doing what I know I need to do - prep me and mine for the shit that is going to happen.  Strategically the situation is inevitable.  So by delaying it and keeping my taxes as low as they can my money goes further towards what I want to invest it in.  If the free shit army grows and my taxes go up because of it that impedes my ability to get shit done.   

OK now you stated my attitude won't get us anywhere.  Where the hell do you want to go?  Lexington Green?  Fuck that.  I ain't giving my life away that easily. You wanna play "G" and have your wife tell your grandkids Granddaddy got slaughtered wholesale by the big bad wolf?  Go right ahead.  I hosted a local mini Patcom and the consensus was things aren't bad enough yet.  Bottom line: nobody has the balls to step offa the porch at this time.  There's been guys that have and not a damn soul one reached out to join up. 

Ya know what happens to people that stay in an position that's guaranteed to get overrun with the notion they can continue to hold off without making plans to shag?  They die - in place.  The position that Libertarians, the TEA party, Gary Johnson, Ron Paul, Hell even Sowell will be able to reverse the course this monster's headed is that position. Brother I'm already on the next ridge line waiting to engage.  Don't kid yourself. Get your shit together and get up here or else get stuck in that ruination.   

[NOLA556]

Defeatist maybe.  Aww fuck it.  I guess I'm through arguing it.   

yeah right Now seriously - voting has nothing to do with what I'm writing about.  Yeah I still vote and still campaign against jacked up stuff but in the same instance I'm doing what I know I need to do - prep me and mine for the shit that is going to happen.  Strategically the situation is inevitable.  So by delaying it and keeping my taxes as low as they can my money goes further towards what I want to invest it in.  If the free shit army grows and my taxes go up because of it that impedes my ability to get shit done.   

OK now you stated my attitude won't get us anywhere.  Where the hell do you want to go?  Lexington Green?  Fuck that.  I ain't giving my life away that easily. You wanna play "G" and have your wife tell your grandkids Granddaddy got slaughtered wholesale by the big bad wolf?  Go right ahead.  I hosted a local mini Patcom and the consensus was things aren't bad enough yet.  Bottom line: nobody has the balls to step offa the porch at this time.  There's been guys that have and not a damn soul one reached out to join up. 

Ya know what happens to people that stay in an position that's guaranteed to get overrun with the notion they can continue to hold off without making plans to shag?  They die - in place.  The position that Libertarians, the TEA party, Gary Johnson, Ron Paul, Hell even Sowell will be able to reverse the course this monster's headed is that position. Brother I'm already on the next ridge line waiting to engage.  Don't kid yourself. Get your shit together and get up here or else get stuck in that ruination.

I'll say this, and then gracefully bow out: even if our fate as a nation is inevitable (I believe it is), there's no reason why you can't actively prep and gear up for that fate AND fight the good fight at the same time. I'm not kidding myself, I'd bet there's a 99% chance of disaster, but I'll still fight for that 1% chance WHILE I prep for the more likely scenario.

[Colombo]

I plan on making it thru the mass culling and I suspect that those who do will be of a different mindset than the current population. Just gotta remember to nip the dictators in the bud but I suspect a more constitutionally aware (and active if necessary) military might help with that.

[EJR914]

Alright kiddo straight from the federal law: http://www.ttb.gov/spirits/faq.shtml  - note it makes no difference whether the spirits are for personal use or sale - the law is the law.

Spirits

You may not produce spirits for beverage purposes without paying taxes and without prior approval of paperwork to operate a distilled spirits plant.  [See 26 U.S.C. 5601 & 5602 for some of the criminal penalties.]  There are numerous requirements that must be met that also make it impractical to produce spirits for personal or beverage use.  Some of these requirements are paying special tax, filing an extensive application, filing a bond, providing adequate equipment to measure spirits, providing suitable tanks and pipelines, providing a separate building (other than a dwelling) and maintaining detailed records, and filing reports.  All of these requirements are listed in 27 CFR Part 19.

Spirits may be produced for non-beverage purposes for fuel use only without payment of tax, but you also must file an application, receive TTB's approval, and follow requirements, such as construction, use, records and reports."

There's the law.  Don't believe me?  Call 1-202-453-2000 and ask 'em.

Ohh so you can only make beer and wine for personal use?  Ok, cool, whatever.  I don't like liquor anyway.  Cool beans.   [img]http://www.arrse.co.uk/at

[RS762]

Alright kiddo straight from the federal law: http://www.ttb.gov/spirits/faq.shtml  - note it makes no difference whether the spirits are for personal use or sale - the law is the law.

Spirits

You may not produce spirits for beverage purposes without paying taxes and without prior approval of paperwork to operate a distilled spirits plant.  [See 26 U.S.C. 5601 & 5602 for some of the criminal penalties.]  There are numerous requirements that must be met that also make it impractical to produce spirits for personal or beverage use.  Some of these requirements are paying special tax, filing an extensive application, filing a bond, providing adequate equipment to measure spirits, providing suitable tanks and pipelines, providing a separate building (other than a dwelling) and maintaining detailed records, and filing reports.  All of these requirements are listed in 27 CFR Part 19.

Spirits may be produced for non-beverage purposes for fuel use only without payment of tax, but you also must file an application, receive TTB's approval, and follow requirements, such as construction, use, records and reports."

There's the law.  Don't believe me?  Call 1-202-453-2000 and ask 'em.

Ohh so you can only make beer and wine for personal use?  Ok, cool, whatever.  I don't like liquor anyway.  Cool beans.   [img]http://www.arrse.co.uk/at

yeah man, i make "farm wine" all the time LOL